Author Topic: Star Wars Discussion Thread v. Rogue One  (Read 455591 times)

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Online Adami

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #210 on: October 12, 2010, 08:51:36 PM »
Spaced?

God damnit. I don't have that many points to give out. I was hoping I'd be awesome too obscure.


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Offline ThroughHerEyesDude6

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #211 on: October 13, 2010, 12:45:28 AM »
What the hell is Spaced?

Offline Vivace

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #212 on: October 13, 2010, 01:35:04 AM »
I cannot stand the prequels. I find them to be atrociously written. The dialogue is some of the worst dialogue ever written for a major motion picture. If anything the prequels have excellent effects but even Lucas stated that effects don't make a movie, you have to have a story first. Good job holding up to your own words their Lucas. Red Letter Media and the pretentious Confused Matthew have said everything that needs to be said about the prequels and I for one agree with them 100%

I love the OT stuff though and can't wait for the fan created update to Empire. His update for A New Hope was fantastic although I haven't seen all of it. Still from what I saw I loved it more than what the SE had to offer.

All in all I agree with whoever said Star Trek is better. It is. undoubtly better. Star Wars has yet to achieve what TNG and DS9 achieved. They haven't gotten close. Star Wars is a fun sci fi show but it's far from being as intelligent as Star Trek has been nor does Empire Strikes Back in my opinion come close to the genius that is Wrath of Khan. Hell I would even go as far as to say Undiscovered Country is better than Empire.

but hey, it's all opinions anyways.  :corn
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Offline Summers

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #213 on: October 13, 2010, 05:36:24 AM »
The thing with the RLM reviews is he picks them apart so much that I bet if he put the same effort into a review of one of the originals he could still come up with something like that with loads of plot holes.  

There is one thing that is awesome about the prequels though.... the soundtrack  :metal
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Offline Vivace

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #214 on: October 13, 2010, 01:19:39 PM »
The thing with the RLM reviews is he picks them apart so much that I bet if he put the same effort into a review of one of the originals he could still come up with something like that with loads of plot holes.  

There is one thing that is awesome about the prequels though.... the soundtrack  :metal

It would be interesting to see either RLM or CM pick apart the OT movies just too see what they can find. However they are mostly picking apart the story and not complaining too much about the acting although it isn't exempt from their critiques. For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels but there are many many things the OT has that the Prequels do not.

1) Character's that have life
2) Character's that we care about
3) A spiritual and philosophical context
4) Organic effects that still look better than the prequels
5) A story

etc, etc, etc.

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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #215 on: October 13, 2010, 01:20:37 PM »
Not just a story, but storytelling, is imo the main difference.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #216 on: October 13, 2010, 01:22:53 PM »
For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels

There is nothing in the OT that is even close to as wooden as Hayden Christensen.

Offline ThroughHerEyesDude6

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #217 on: October 13, 2010, 03:07:46 PM »
For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels

There is nothing in the OT that is even close to as wooden as Hayden Christensen.

Christiansen was very wooden. Why do you think he caught fire?

Offline Summers

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #218 on: October 13, 2010, 05:26:54 PM »
For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels

There is nothing in the OT that is even close to as wooden as Hayden Christensen.

He sucked, but I dunno if sometimes it was because the dialogue he had to work with was so awkward.  The infamous "no.... it's because I'm so in love with you!" scene from RotS springs to mind. 
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Offline orcus116

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #219 on: October 13, 2010, 08:39:52 PM »
No, his acting was terrible regardless of the dialogue. His body language was just as robotic as his delivery most of the time.

Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #220 on: October 13, 2010, 08:40:58 PM »
For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels

There is nothing in the OT that is even close to as wooden as Hayden Christensen.

This. And the originals are not as dramatic as the prequels - the most obvious example being the lack of a central love story - so the acting does not demand as much from the cast.
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Online Adami

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #221 on: October 13, 2010, 08:59:05 PM »
For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels

There is nothing in the OT that is even close to as wooden as Hayden Christensen.

This. And the originals are not as dramatic as the prequels - the most obvious example being the lack of a central love story - so the acting does not demand as much from the cast.

Wait wait wait, did you just say the original trilogy didn't a love story? I beleive Han and Leia would like to have a word with you.

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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #222 on: October 13, 2010, 08:59:48 PM »
I believe he said central love story.  And is therefore correct.
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Offline blackngold29

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #223 on: October 13, 2010, 09:31:43 PM »
But the love story is key because Anakin turned into a bad guy for the ironic reason of love.

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #224 on: October 13, 2010, 10:06:03 PM »
I believe he said central love story.  And is therefore correct.

Eh. It was central enough. It wasn't luke, but it was central enough.
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #225 on: October 13, 2010, 10:37:44 PM »
For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels

There is nothing in the OT that is even close to as wooden as Hayden Christensen.

This. And the originals are not as dramatic as the prequels - the most obvious example being the lack of a central love story - so the acting does not demand as much from the cast.

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Offline Vivace

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #226 on: October 14, 2010, 12:43:18 AM »
But the love story is key because Anakin turned into a bad guy for the ironic reason of love.

Ah no. Anakin was always a bad person. He was an asshole from the moment we met him and died an asshole. ;) Also, I agree, Hayden takes the cake for driest most wooden acting in the series with a close second from Natalie (unfortunate) and a close third from Samuel Jackson. However after watching a New Hope recently I still fail to see major differences between it and most of the Prequels. Empire and Jedi had a lot more life to it than a New Hope.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #227 on: October 14, 2010, 09:43:19 AM »
This thread is sort of all over the place as of late, so I hope no one minds me going off on my own little thing.

I really liked Bosk1’s post about the few changes he believed would have made Ep3 stronger. They were well thought out and articulated, and I agreed with 99% of what he wrote. This despite me enjoying Ep3 very much. I thought about this process in relation to Eps1 and 2 and realized it would be quite a bit to chew on, but when I kept thinking about it, I kept coming back to only one thing (actually two, one smaller thing covered later*): Anakin and Padme’s relationship.

I’m not a screenwriter so I’m not going to be overly critical. I thought the storyline of Palpatine assuming control throughout Ep1-3 was well done. Weaseling his way into the Chancellor’s seat, the creation of the clones, assuming control of the senate... It’s not Shakespeare, but it plays out well and doesn’t cause any major ripples in the transition to Eps 4-6.

But then we come to Anakin and Padme. He meets her when he is 8-10(? I have no idea) and she somehow managed to have a major impact on his psyche, without really doing anything for him. Are 8-10 year old boys that impressionable, such that for the next 10 years he would long to be re-acquainted with her?  Especially considering he has been flown off to Jedi training? And then, once they meet again, she becomes attracted to him, despite their obvious differences (and down-played age difference)? Is it because she likes the ‘bad boy’ in him? Whatever it is, it feels about as phony as a three dollar bill. Then they fall in love and have dreams of starting a family, even though they know their separate paths would prevent that from being possible. Aside from the angst-ridden ‘love’ scenes, this whole arc was terribly conceived. Why have them meet when he is a boy? It isn’t significant enough to spend an entire movie on it. If the only significant parts of his arc at that stage is that he’s a freed slave, misses his mother, and pines for Padme, they could have established that with a couple lines of dialogue and eliminated the need for everything that transpired in his storyline in Ep1. For that matter, why is it important for them to fall in love? No one said Luke and Leia’s parents were deeply in love with each other. Obviously it makes the loss of Padme mean more to Anakin, but that didn’t play out that well anyway. It felt like his ‘turn’ was based on a hodgepodge of separate issues, none of them feeling convincing when taken individually, and barely even when taken together. Bosk1 and ReaPsTA and others have addressed this well earlier in this thread so I won’t go in to it here.

*As for the rest of Ep1, why does the fate of the galaxy hinge on a trade embargo with an insignificant planet like Naboo? When they blew up Alderaan, a planet we only saw through the viewscreen of the Death Star for two seconds, we were all “OH SHIT!!!” but we shrugged our shoulders at the fate of Naboo, because it feels so insignificant and empty. This is what Palpatine hinges the first stages of his masterplan takeover on. And we don’t feel any sense of urgency, panic, danger throughout the course of the whole movie the way we felt during the first five minutes of Ep4 with the Star Destroyer closing in on the rebel ship. 
 
Sorry if this was rambling. Please comment, agree, disagree, whatever. Writing this beat working at least.
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Offline GuineaPig

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #228 on: October 14, 2010, 09:58:45 AM »
Besides, when your two main analogies you're going with are Nazi Germany and the Late Republic, trade embargoes of small planets don't exactly measure up to fires in the Reichstag or crossing the Rubicon.
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Offline Vivace

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #229 on: October 14, 2010, 11:12:37 AM »
When it comes to the Prequels I have been under the opinion for a few years now that Lucas should have started the whole thing when Anakin was 22. The story idea of Palpatine's rise to power is great but the setup and execution was stupid. You have a ton of historical lessons to pick out and write something along those lines but instead Lucas makes it up as he goes along and invents the dumbest governmental system ever contrived. He manages to destroy whatever credibility the Jedi Order had by making them absolutely worthless. The line, "What kind of Jedi are these? Defenders of truth and justice my ass!" rings so true throughout the whole prequels . There are a few sequences that I really liked and I think played very well. The beginning of Revenge of the Sith was good. The final fight with Darth Maul wasn't bad with the exception of some rather dumb ideas which needed Signorney Weaver's opinion (Galaxy Quest reference). But all in all, Lucas manages to write in a sequence of events that make very little sense, and a Jedi Order that is brain dead oh and selfish too and a hero that is clearly an egotistical, jerk and committed mass murder and got away with it. I would be very interested to read what bosk changed but in my opinion the whole thing needed a rewrite. Keep the story ideas, Palpatine's rise to power, Anakin's rise to power and fall to the dark side, Obi Wan and Anakin's relationship, etc, etc but throw away everything and start all over again.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #230 on: October 14, 2010, 01:25:50 PM »
For one A New Hope has exactly the same wooden acting as the rest of the prequels

There is nothing in the OT that is even close to as wooden as Hayden Christensen.

This. And the originals are not as dramatic as the prequels - the most obvious example being the lack of a central love story - so the acting does not demand as much from the cast.

Wait wait wait, did you just say the original trilogy didn't a love story? I beleive Han and Leia would like to have a word with you.

Nerfherder.

You guys really think the Han and Leia love story is as important to the original trilogy as the Anakin and Padme love story is to the prequels?
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Online Adami

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #231 on: October 14, 2010, 01:26:42 PM »
Well it wasn't AS important, but you said there was none. Not a semi less important one.
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Offline TheOutlawXanadu

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #232 on: October 14, 2010, 01:30:14 PM »
I don't think it's central though. It's more of a character-building thing or a sub-plot.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #233 on: October 14, 2010, 01:31:21 PM »
It wasn't the crux of the plot, though. The prequels were built on politics and a badly written love story whereas the OT was mainly an adventure story.

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #234 on: October 14, 2010, 02:02:09 PM »
I don't think it's central though. It's more of a character-building thing or a sub-plot.

What about the love story between luke and his hand? He starts off living on a desert planet, obviously uses his hand quite often. Then he meets leia, and digs her a lot. Eventually finds out they're siblings and he's back to using his hand. Then his dad cuts his hand off and luke gets super pissy. Central enough for you?
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #235 on: October 14, 2010, 02:06:48 PM »
There is no evidence of that in Ep4 however. Surely a pilot who can bullseye womp-rats in his T-16 would have pussy lined up all the way to Toshi Station.

And he found out Leia was his sister after he lost his hand.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #236 on: October 14, 2010, 02:08:09 PM »
Nah. Obi-wan told it to him before he left Dagoba.

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #237 on: October 14, 2010, 02:10:47 PM »
There is no evidence of that in Ep4 however. Surely a pilot who can bullseye womp-rats in his T-16 would have pussy lined up all the way to Toshi Station.

And he found out Leia was his sister after he lost his hand.

Yea, desert pussy. Dry as hell.
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Offline RobD

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #238 on: October 14, 2010, 02:13:24 PM »
Nah. Obi-wan told it to him before he left Dagoba.

Yes, the second time he went, after he lost his hand.
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Online Adami

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #239 on: October 14, 2010, 02:15:23 PM »
Nah. Obi-wan told it to him before he left Dagoba.

Yes, the second time he went, after he lost his hand.

See? The plot holes in the original trilogy just get more and more obvious.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #240 on: October 14, 2010, 02:16:28 PM »
Nah. Obi-wan told it to him before he left Dagoba.

Yes, the second time he went, after he lost his hand.

Oh yeah. I forgot I was thinking of ROTJ. Obi-wan tells the audience though in Empire, though.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #241 on: October 14, 2010, 02:51:37 PM »
Orcus, I think you need to watch TESB again :p
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Offline ReaPsTA

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #242 on: October 14, 2010, 02:59:00 PM »
Oh yeah. I forgot I was thinking of ROTJ. Obi-wan tells the audience though in Empire, though.

He just says "there is another." At the time, Lucas didn't know who this was, so it wasn't even meant to be a hint.
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #243 on: October 14, 2010, 03:54:40 PM »
He just says "there is another." At the time, Lucas didn't know who this was, so it wasn't even meant to be a hint.

I had no idea GL didn’t even know what he intended with that. Has he made that comment personally? Even as a kid it never made sense for it to refer to Leia. She would never have been strong enough with the force. She didn’t get nearly as much of it hereditarily as Luke did (we are to assume), and had zero training.

I’ve heard people argue Yoda is referring to Vader (Anakin) overthrowing the Emperor, the implication being that Vader still did have the capacity, and the fortitude, to do so. But that is harder to believe when you wonder why it took this long for him to do anything. Unless you account for Luke’s presence in his life to redeem the goodness in him.

I feel like I am arguing with myself in circles…
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Offline blackngold29

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Re: All Star Wars Discussion Thread
« Reply #244 on: October 14, 2010, 06:51:33 PM »
I don't think it's central though. It's more of a character-building thing or a sub-plot.

What about the love story between luke and his hand? He starts off living on a desert planet, obviously uses his hand quite often. Then he meets leia, and digs her a lot. Eventually finds out they're siblings and he's back to using his hand. Then his dad cuts his hand off and luke gets super pissy. Central enough for you?
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And also:

The Luke-Leia-Han love triangle is a much bigger deal in earlier drafts of the script. It’s at the root of Luke’s struggles for self-respect and his humiliations. When Darth Vader is trying to win Luke over to the Dark Side in the second draft, written by Lucas himself, Vader says, “You’re in love with Leia. You don’t want to lose her to Han Solo…. But you will, if you lack the courage to use the strength that’s in you. A strength as great as mine, Luke.” And then at the end, Leia flat-out tells Luke that he’s not the one she loves, because she’s into Han. Also in this version, Han doesn’t get frozen in carbonite — instead, he just flies off to take care of business, leaving Luke and Leia watching the Millennium Falcon disappear.

https://www.wired.com/underwire/2010/10/10-things-empire-strikes-back/#ixzz12NssPIUI