Why do you like Dream Theater? (And Progessive Rock/Metal in general)

[setrataeso]

That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.

Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.

Examples?

Tool
dredg
Porcupine Tree
Pain of Salvation
Devin Townsend
Protest the Hero
Scale the Summit
Opeth
Mastodon
Anathema
The Pineapple Thief
Lady Gaga
The Mars Volta
Shadow Gallery
Thrice
Wolverine
Pure Reason Revolution


Bolded bands are ones that I think are shining examples of how a band can have a repertoire of many different sides of the stylistic spectrum, and yet do it all in ways I have never heard before, and remain consistently themselves while not ostracising too many fans in the process.

[Ravenheart]

Not to mention, creating music that's actually good.

[Gorille85]

Thrice is a good pick too.. but yeah the range of Unexpect is really something else.

[setrataeso]

Thrice is a good pick too.. but yeah the range of Unexpect is really something else.

I only know a bit of Unexpect. They're not really my thing, but I won't deny that they are pretty cool and create very unexpected tunes...
...
...

[Gorille85]

HO HO HO

[TheGreatPretender]

https://unexpect.bandcamp.com/album/fables-of-the-sleepless-empire

I know Unexpect, and yes, they're diverse, and unique, and interesting. But I honestly can't stand too much of them. Yes, they get crazy. Very crazy. And sometimes, so crazy that it's practically unlistenable. And frankly, I'm not a fan of Death Metal Screaming. I think it's damaging their music.

Personally, I think there is such thing as Too Extreme. Which is why I don't get people who say like, "Oh yeah, I loved Iron Maiden, they were my favorite Metal Band. But then I needed something heavier, so I started listening to Megadeth. But then I needed something heavier, so now my new favorite band is Cannibal Corpse." And in the case of Unexpect, yes they have some very pleasant things about their music, their orchestral, melodic parts are awesome, but they almost get canceled out by the crazy, chaotic Death Metal parts.

Tool
dredg
Porcupine Tree
Pain of Salvation
Devin Townsend
Protest the Hero
Scale the Summit
Opeth
Mastodon
Anathema
The Pineapple Thief
Lady Gaga
The Mars Volta
Shadow Gallery
Thrice
Wolverine
Pure Reason Revolution


Bolded bands are ones that I think are shining examples of how a band can have a repertoire of many different sides of the stylistic spectrum, and yet do it all in ways I have never heard before, and remain consistently themselves while not ostracising too many fans in the process.

Lady Gaga? You're seriously gonna tell me that Lady Gaga has as much range and variety as DT? Gimme a break. New and unique? Sure. But while she has SOME variety, it's not that much.

I don't hear anything unique or innovative about Tool, or Opeth, or Thrice. Maybe they're diverse, but I wouldn't say they're anymore unique or innovative than DT. DT still has a sound that's more unique than those bands. What I mean is, I heard plenty of bands that have a similar sound to Tool. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe those bands were imitating Tool, and Tool was the first to do that sound. But I still don't think it's all that interesting. Opeth I guess to an extent has something unique about it, but I still wouldn't put it as more diverse or interesting than Dream Theater.

Now, it's another thing if you dig those sounds more than Dream Theater, there's nothing wrong with that. But that can't be debated, because it's all a matter of opinion. And sure, those bands are good in their own right. It's not like I never heard them before. They just never caught my attention enough to say, "This sounds great. I definitely want to hear more from this band." Which was even something I said about Disturbed, even if they're not all that diverse at all.

[Gorille85]

If you like them or not is a question of tastes. I'm just saying that Unexpect covers a wider range than DT, for example.

[setrataeso]

Lady Gaga? You're seriously gonna tell me that Lady Gaga has as much range and variety as DT? Gimme a break. New and unique? Sure. But while she has SOME variety, it's not that much.

Yeah I really do believe that. I said it the other thread that I found Lady Gaga's first two albums (Not Born This Way, though. Was not as amazing at it could have been) more interesting then Dream Theater's two most recent albums. She's got more different and unique things going for her then Dream Theater does right now. I feel like you are really only familiar with her singles, but her deeper cuts are trying out a lot more unusual stuff than you would expect from her.

I don't hear anything unique or innovative about Tool, or Opeth, or Thrice. Maybe they're diverse, but I wouldn't say they're anymore unique or innovative than DT. DT still has a sound that's more unique than those bands. What I mean is, I heard plenty of bands that have a similar sound to Tool. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe those bands were imitating Tool, and Tool was the first to do that sound. But I still don't think it's all that interesting. Opeth I guess to an extent has something unique about it, but I still wouldn't put it as more diverse or interesting than Dream Theater.

Now, it's another thing if you dig those sounds more than Dream Theater, there's nothing wrong with that. But that can't be debated, because it's all a matter of opinion. And sure, those bands are good in their own right. It's not like I never heard them before. They just never caught my attention enough to say, "This sounds great. I definitely want to hear more from this band." Which was even something I said about Disturbed, even if they're not all that diverse at all.

Yeah, I know it does come down to opinion. Normally, I really have no strong opinion for or against DT, but recently, there have been an influx of new members to DTF, and all of them seem to share the same "DREAM THEATER IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!!" mentality, and I'm here to state my opinion, which is that of someone who has grown a bit tired and cynical of DT's recent sound. You began to argue, and I love a good debate (which this has been, by the way. Well argued, sir.) so I rebutted.
Of course this is boiling down to my opinion, and so I shared some bands I like that I think are blazing trails in the music world that I am interested in following. It's up to you what to make of that. Go ahead and believe that Dream Theater has a vast range of styles and is still is fresh, I just won't agree.  

[TheGreatPretender]

If you like them or not is a question of tastes. I'm just saying that Unexpect covers a wider range than DT, for example.

They still have that "Unexpect" sound. ESPECIALLY because of how unique and crazy they are. You hear it and you go, "Yeah, that's definitely Unexpect." So it's not like having "A Trademark Sound" makes someone less unique or diverse. And I'm sorry if you weren't the one who argued that. I'm seriously losing track here. I feel like my brain is gonna explode.

Yeah I really do believe that. I said it the other thread that I found Lady Gaga's first two albums (Not Born This Way, though. Was not as amazing at it could have been) more interesting then Dream Theater's two most recent albums. She's got more different and unique things going for her then Dream Theater does right now. I feel like you are really only familiar with her singles, but her deeper cuts are trying out a lot more unusual stuff than you would expect from her.

Well, no, I have to admit, I'm not intimately familiar with Lady Gaga's library. I know she does dance pop and acoustic ballads. So if she has some Heavy Metal songs in her repertoire that I'm unaware of, then you win. Otherwise, I still wouldn't say that's more variety.

Yeah, I know it does come down to opinion. Normally, I really have no strong opinion for or against DT, but recently, there have been an influx of new members to DTF, and all of them seem to share the same "DREAM THEATER IS THE GREATEST THING SINCE SLICED BREAD!!!!" mentality, and I'm here to state my opinion, which is that of someone who has grown a bit tired and cynical of DT's recent sound. You began to argue, and I love a good debate (which this has been, by the way. Well argued, sir.) so I rebutted.
Of course this is boiling down to my opinion, and so I shared some bands I like that I think are blazing trails in the music world that I am interested in following. It's up to you what to make of that. Go ahead and believe that Dream Theater has a vast range of styles and is still is fresh, I just won't agree. 

Well, I don't know what you mean by "Still Fresh" though. I don't need the newest and freshest thing. Frankly, anything new is fresh to me. I think some of the most classic bands out there are still making some of their best music. Specifically Iron Maiden and Judas Priest.
And no, I don't think Black Clouds was one of DT's best works, but honestly, I really liked Systematic Chaos, and I thought that sounded plenty fresh. I thought it sounded very modern in spite of still retaining the trademark DT sound. Yet most DT fans hate the crap out of it.

Sidebar: Oh yeah, believe me, I wouldn't still be going on if I didn't enjoy a good debate. It's like red meat. Sometimes I just need it.

[setrataeso]

Lady Gaga does have a song called "Heavy Metal Lover" on Born This Way. It's not really a metal song, but it's pretty much her love letter to her favourite band, Iron Maiden. I can't really describe the song's sound, it's really unusual.


In 73109's thread in GMD, he asked "what makes a good album?", and I responded that a good album will make me feel something. Some Dream Theater albums have held that feeling I had the first time I heard it. With SC and BC&SL, I felt nothing hearing them. I have no connection to them, and I could never love them on a level past simple respect for their musicianship.

[setrataeso]

Also dude, the reason I'm picking on you is because of your quote in that thread:


"Of course Dream Theater isn't that good. Good music is obviously about 3 minute pop songs and catchy hooks.
Dream Theater aren't that good. Neither was Beethoven, or Mozart, or Bach. Pfft, 20 minute epics. Who needs that?"


It was a typical prog snob comment. Whether you were joking or not, it put you on my radar as someone to beat the prog snobbery out of.

[Ravenheart]

Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.

In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.

[PixelDream]

I used to like DT mostly because of the amazing instrumental skills. My love for wankery faded, but DT never did. Nowadays I'm into them because of their craft in magical songwriting. Even if you don't like wankery, they have written some insanely good Songs.

I still love their epic stuff though, and technical musicianship is an integral part of what makes Dream Theater. They do have some clunky vocal melodies, and that is even apparent on highly regarded works like Awake, SFAM and BC&SL. FII may be an odd record, but here they got everything right in terms of arrangement, melody and production. I've come to adore that record. Bad things are You Not Me, and the lack of album flow. The diversity in style and sound though, it's IMO standing on its own in the DT discog. The song where this all comes together is Lines in the Sand, I think.

Lots of their Rudess era music is focused more on heaviness and technical extravaganzas, but I enjoy that as well. I can perfectly rock out to an obviously clunky song like TDEN.

I don't know if this post made sense or not, cause I typed it on my iphone. Whatever the case, I yesterday found out that I was going to make it to their sunday gig in Holland (Bospop). 8th time or so, and this time feels weird and extra special because of MM. Stoked to see him play, even though I'm definately gonna miss MP's unique stage presence and cool drumwork. Nonetheless, MM is incredible, indeed plays circles around MP, and OTBOA is a very good track! Sounds like going back to their roots while staying with the modern metal sound. I hope the new record will be their best since SDOIT but until that time, I can't wait for DT live next sunday.

Yeah I love DT!

[setrataeso]

Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.

In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.

Yep. I don't go see movies to only see one director or one actor. I don't read books of only one author. Variety is the spice of life, not stagnancy. Just because you are listening to music that isn't on the radio doesn't mean that there is any more variety in the music you like than the music anyone else likes. Getting stuck in the prog box is no better than getting stuck in the Top 40 box.

[Ravenheart]

Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.

In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.

Yep. I don't go see movies to only see one director or one actor. I don't read books of only one author. Variety is the spice of life, not stagnancy. Just because you are listening to music that isn't on the radio doesn't mean that there is any more variety in the music you like than the music anyone else likes. Getting stuck in the prog box is no better than getting stuck in the Top 40 box.

Exactly. I had the mindset for awhile of, "Whaa? Music that actually had a hit? I'm too good to listen to nonsense like that." Now I realize how silly that was, and it's helped me expand my tastes and my mind.

For me, personally, wankery and extravagant musicianship does absolutely nothing for me. If there's any music snobbery left inside of me, it's that I demand my music to have more than "Look what I can do and you can't."

[setrataeso]

You are my new best forum friend.

[Ravenheart]

You are my new best forum friend.

o/

[setrataeso]

*\o

[Gorille85]

Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.

In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.

Yep. I don't go see movies to only see one director or one actor. I don't read books of only one author. Variety is the spice of life, not stagnancy. Just because you are listening to music that isn't on the radio doesn't mean that there is any more variety in the music you like than the music anyone else likes. Getting stuck in the prog box is no better than getting stuck in the Top 40 box.

Exactly. I had the mindset for awhile of, "Whaa? Music that actually had a hit? I'm too good to listen to nonsense like that." Now I realize how silly that was, and it's helped me expand my tastes and my mind.

For me, personally, wankery and extravagant musicianship does absolutely nothing for me. If there's any music snobbery left inside of me, it's that I demand my music to have more than "Look what I can do and you can't."

Agree 100%

[TheGreatPretender]

Lady Gaga does have a song called "Heavy Metal Lover" on Born This Way. It's not really a metal song, but it's pretty much her love letter to her favourite band, Iron Maiden. I can't really describe the song's sound, it's really unusual.


In 73109's thread in GMD, he asked "what makes a good album?", and I responded that a good album will make me feel something. Some Dream Theater albums have held that feeling I had the first time I heard it. With SC and BC&SL, I felt nothing hearing them. I have no connection to them, and I could never love them on a level past simple respect for their musicianship.

Well, I loved Systematic Chaos. It made me feel plenty.
But as for Black Clouds, yeah, I didn't enjoy it as much as their previous albums. Some say it wasn't inspired. And although I didn't particularly like the verse parts of The Best Of Times, I still thought the piano/violin intro, and the guitar solo were very moving. Along with quite a few other parts of the album. I'm sorry that it didn't make you feel anything.

Also dude, the reason I'm picking on you is because of your quote in that thread:


"Of course Dream Theater isn't that good. Good music is obviously about 3 minute pop songs and catchy hooks.
Dream Theater aren't that good. Neither was Beethoven, or Mozart, or Bach. Pfft, 20 minute epics. Who needs that?"


It was a typical prog snob comment. Whether you were joking or not, it put you on my radar as someone to beat the prog snobbery out of.

Well, I don't consider myself a snob. And I really don't see how talking about Lady Gaga's 'innovative' nature is going to accomplish anything.

Snobbery of any kind is annoying. There are so many great bands and genres out there that aren't the typical prog or prog metal sound. It helps to explore.

In fact, I can count on one hand the number of bands I like that even remotely resemble the "prog metal" sound.

And this is exactly why I don't consider myself a snob. I explore plenty, snobby would be saying, "Nothing else is worth listening to." I'm always open to listening to new bands, and I explore plenty. I really don't see how my comment gave an otherwise impression.
I simply consider Dream Theater in very, very high regards.

[setrataeso]

Well, you say that you explore plenty of styles of music and are open to listening to new things, but when you look down your nose at 3 minute pop songs with catchy hooks, just because you think it's the cool thing to do, I sort of lose faith in your claims.

And me talking about Lady Gaga's innovative nature is not meant to accomplish anything, so I don't know where you got that from...I just like her music, I find it interesting, and you asked for examples, so I provided.

[TheGreatPretender]

Well, you say that you explore plenty of styles of music and are open to listening to new things, but when you look down your nose at 3 minute pop songs with catchy hooks, just because you think it's the cool thing to do, I sort of lose faith in your claims.

That's not a type of music though. That's a type of song structure, and it's formulaic. And there's nothing wrong with that. But bands that will do 10 minute songs with extended instrumental sections and in some cases, no actual chorus (i.e. Dream Theater) I simply hold higher regards for. And it doesn't have to be DT. Epica has 13 minute epics that sound like they should be soundtracks to movies like 300, and they have their more formulaic 4 minute songs. Well, I'll definitely hold the 13 minute epic in higher regards. Because it goes to more places, it's more of a journey than any given 3 minute chorus, verse, chorus, solo, etc. song.

Don't get me wrong, when I say "pop" songs, I don't mean Pop music. The songs that DT does in that format I consider pop songs too. Hollow Years for example. As much as I like it, I'll still hold Metropolis in higher regards.

And me talking about Lady Gaga's innovative nature is not meant to accomplish anything, so I don't know where you got that from...

Well, you said that you were trying to use your arguments to "beat the snobbery out of me", a statement that I pretty much resent in every way.

[Ravenheart]

That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song. Not everyone can write a song that's only 5 minutes long that has hooks, imagination, creativity, and excitement.

[setrataeso]

Well I said that in jest. I have no intention of changing your mind. I'm just arguing because I like the direction this debate is taking us. But, I don't think I ever was trying to use Lady Gaga to prove anything, outside of my own personal tastes.

And that's cool about holding longer songs in higher regard. Most DT fans do. My top 5 DT songs are all Metropolis-length or longer. I agree about the journey they take you on. But your statement about how epic song > shorter song is a bit too much of a blanket statement for me not to comment on. My favourite song of all time is less than 4 minutes, but many other favourite songs of mine are also longer songs.

What I'm trying to get at is that there is just as much merit to a shorter song as there is to a longer song. Yes, longer songs have more room to impress, but there's also more room for the artist to shit the bed at any point. I don't need anything artificially extended if is not serving the song in a positive way.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song.

That's not true. I've heard plenty of bands who tried writing... Forget 20. 10 minute songs, they couldn't do it. Those songs end up dragging big time. DT's epics are interesting all the way through.

Not everyone can write a song that's only 5 minutes long that has hooks, imagination, creativity, and excitement.

And yet, everyone does. Megadeth still writes interesting songs with that formula. Same with Disturbed. Same with less known bands like Supreme Majesty. They all write 5 minute songs, and they're perfectly good songs. They're catchy, imaginative, the music is certainly exciting. And they're perfectly worth listening to. In fact, to say, "If it's not new or unique or innovative, then it's stale and worth listening to," THAT sounds like snobbery.

What I'm trying to get at is that there is just as much merit to a shorter song as there is to a longer song. Yes, longer songs have more room to impress, but there's also more room for the artist to shit the bed at any point. I don't need anything artificially extended if is not serving the song in a positive way.

I'm not saying they don't hold merit. But 95% of bands out there will follow that format. So if I say 20 minute epics > 3 minute short songs, then it's more a matter of supply and demand. It's easy to find a good 3 - 5 minute song by any band who has even the slightest skill in playing music. Dream Theater is one of the only bands I know (not THE only mind you) who can successfully write a 10+ minute song and make it interesting. There aren't too many bands out there who can do that. That's why I value those songs more.

[setrataeso]

Still find it strange. You are basically now saying that value = great music. I have never heard that before...

[Heaven Outcry Angel]

TheGreatPretender, you are a strange person.

[ClairvoyantCat]

That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song.

That's not true. I've heard plenty of bands who tried writing... Forget 20. 10 minute songs, they couldn't do it. Those songs end up dragging big time. DT's epics are interesting all the way through.

I'd be willing to debate that.  Personally, I find *gasp* Octavarium, for example, way too long for its own good, and is as guilty of "dragging big time" as much as any other attempt at a long song I can think of.  That's not to say that all of the lengthier pieces are simply dragged out for the very sake of length, but I find that one to be so. 

The point is that a song's time length is a number.  There's no greater inherent value of a 20 minute song than a 2 minute song without the context of how its length works for it. 

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

That's a pretty weird standard for music. Anyone can write a 20-minute song. Not everyone can write a song that's only 5 minutes long that has hooks, imagination, creativity, and excitement.

Alright, here it goes.

Anyone can write a 20-minute song. Not everyone can write a 20 minute song with hooks, imagination, creativity and excitement. (DT certainly can)
Anyone can write a 5-minute song. Not everyone can write a 5 minute song with hooks, imagination, creativity blah blah. Lots of bands and musicians certainly can.

20 minute songs are directed towards one audience, while 5 minute songs are normally directed towards another audience. That's the way music rolls.

[setrataeso]

Dammit, TheGreatPretender! I had plans to progress on L.A Noire tonight. Instead, I've spent the whole evening arguing with you. It's fun and all, but goddammit dude...

[TheGreatPretender]

Still find it strange. You are basically now saying that value = great music. I have never heard that before...

Well, what if all music in history was 20+ minutes long? And that's what we listened to for centuries, and that's what the Beatles, and Elvis, and Deep Purple, and every artist that we've ever known did. 20 minute epics. And then someone started coming out with 5 minute pop songs, and things like that were considered rare? Honestly, yes, I think I'd appreciate them a lot more, if that were the case. As long as the musicians were actually good, of course.

Instead, it's the other way around. And it's not because every band WANTS to be formulaic, I don't think. I would imagine it's because most bands, like I said, can't or don't try to write long epics. Either way, long epics are in short supply. Which says something about a band that can write them successfully. I think that's a major part of what makes DT great.

One part, though, and there are plenty of other reasons, including their overall sound. I like the way Pettrucci plays guitar, and the way Rudess shreds the keyboard and plays piano. And that's a matter of opinion. But I don't think it's deniable that every member of the band is a master of their craft.

Also, it's okay. I also had some video gaming plans tonight that went to waste, hahah.

TheGreatPretender, you are a strange person.

I'm vaguely aware of that.

I'd be willing to debate that.  Personally, I find *gasp* Octavarium, for example, way too long for its own good, and is as guilty of "dragging big time" as much as any other attempt at a long song I can think of.  That's not to say that all of the lengthier pieces are simply dragged out for the very sake of length, but I find that one to be so.

Well, then it's an exception to the general rule. But even then, many people love Octavarium through and through.

[setrataeso]

I really don't think that's how music should be judged. In a perfect world, one would enjoy music in a mental bubble. Without comparing it to what is common or popular or better or worse. Just judging it on it's own merits.
That obviously can't happen, but I try my best to not say "well there are lots of 4-minutes songs out there, so this one better really work hard to impress me." The first half of that sentence should not influence the opinion. If it does for you, then that's fine. That's how you enjoy it. I just try to remain more refrained from letting outside sources affect my enjoyment of anything.

Anyway, I really do want to do other things with my life right now. So, I'm bouncin'
Good debate, 'twas fun. We'll be back at it again soon enough anyways, I reckon.

[TheGreatPretender]

I really don't think that's how music should be judged. In a perfect world, one would enjoy music in a mental bubble. Without comparing it to what is common or popular or better or worse. Just judging it on it's own merits.

That obviously can't happen, but I try my best to not say "well there are lots of 4-minutes songs out there, so this one better really work hard to impress me." The first half of that sentence should not influence the opinion. If it does for you, then that's fine. That's how you enjoy it. I just try to remain more refrained from letting outside sources affect my enjoyment of anything.

Sounds reasonable... But this whole debate started, in part because there were so many people who were compelled to say that "There are other bands out there who have more variety than Dream Theater, so in comparison, DT is not that diverse."

[King Postwhore]

I'm into long lovemaking with peaks and valleys and DT is good for that.  Yes Double bass drumming pleases me.

Why are you always WRONG

That's not what my wife said.

[Jaffa]

You can call Ulver new, experimental and interesting all you want, but I'd still rather listen to DT. It's about what sounds good, not about what's "The most innovative".

Doesn’t this kind of invalidate the whole rest of your argument? 

You’re basically saying that Ulver may be more diverse than Dream Theater but Dream Theater is still better.  If Ulver is more diverse, then by comparison with Ulver, Dream Theater is less diverse.  Which means that Dream Theater is not the pinnacle of diversity.

Maybe I’ve missed something, but your whole argument seems to have been that Dream Theater is the pinnacle of diversity.

By the way, I do think DT is diverse, and I've never heard of Ulver.  So it's not that I disagree with you, I'm just really confused about what your point is.