Why do you like Dream Theater? (And Progessive Rock/Metal in general)

[jimbosile]

Because they're so energy. So powah!

[RG93]

Because their technical skill level allows them to incorporate many different genres into their music. Their discography is really unique (SFAM, I&W, FII and TOT can't be classified as the same type of album for me)

[setrataeso]

The term "prog" doesn't really hold water like it used to Great Pretender. It's a fancy word that is used to categorize a different style of music, to put it simply. Yeah bands like Mastodon and Symphony X and Opeth are all different and all have the "prog metal" label slapped on them, but I really think that's just another term, and one that should be taken with a grain of salt. Given how broad the term "prog" has become, there's very little "in-box" cohesion happening.

That's my whole point. These days Prog isn't tied down by any specific type of sound, so there are so many places to go. So even though a lot of Dream Theater's sound still comes inspired by the Prog Rock of old, they're still one of the most diverse bands out there. You have Six Degrees, and that's a solid Prog Metal album, with even songs like Solitary Shell, which is, yeah, borderline pop.
Then you have an album like Train of Thought, and it's completely different, it's super heavy throughout, only having one really mellow piece which is only 2 minutes long.
Then it goes back to Octavarium which, apart from a couple of songs, was pretty much softer than Six Degrees.
Then from that to a melodic, but still very heavy album like Systematic Chaos. That's diverse, man.

Specious reasoning. Don't do it.
I see what you're driving at, but I really don't see the big difference between those albums. Yes, there are some songs that deviate from the typical Dream Theater sound, but overall, they are producing pretty much paint-by-numbers songs.
I'm saying that there's a lot of difference between bands in the prog metal genre. When it comes to Dream Theater, there is a lot of a same-y sound. It's not a complaint, it's just how it is.
You were comparing The Answer Lies Within and Honor Thy Father, and deducing that because those songs are so different, prog metal is a broad genre. But one band does not define a genre. That's like me saying, "hey Green Day's 'Good Riddance' and 'American Idiot' sound so different from each other, the punk rock genre must be so varied!"

[smerfak]

Well, everything has been said already skills, variety, complexity, creativity, involvement..

I like progressive music because it's not like listening to one song several times and being able to say: ok, now I know it well, I fully understand it. It takes more time to appreciate the songs but they are definitely worth it. And even if you listen one track quite long, when you come back to it later, even year or two years later it still sounds kinda fresh and still there is something 'new' to 'explore'.


And don't know if I said it clear.. I'm not english

[novenpeter]

Before i listen to DT, i listen to LTE. i was amazed by their skill, and the complexity of the music. later i switch to DT, John Myung's bass skill really, really amazing ( i am a bass player ) , than i fall in love with DT.

[Guitalguy]

Samara pretty much said everything i wanted to say... Like everyone also says, it's the complexity of the sound, and songs in general, and that there's a much deeper meaning than in other music. If you compare a standard pop-4-chord song to something like Octavarium, you can't quite believe that both are categorized as "music". It's so complex, and that's why I never get tired of it. You always hear something you didn't hear last time, and even if you know the music 100%, there is probably still a story told with it, that you can't quite understand by listening a couple of times.

Also, there's the skill of each and every member of DT, and the way they play together. All of them are of the worlds greatest at their respective fields, and that makes it a bit more interesting to me, as a guitarist, to have something to reach for.

I think one reason i like it the way I do, is that I don't fully understand it. It's something about it that makes it interesting. The music grows on you, and you'll end up liking every song, once you listen to it enough.

[rumborak]

Interestingly, I *really* like Dream Theater, but can't stand prog metal as a genre.
 

Same here.  Almost all of the "prog" music I like is rock, not metal.

I'm not even sure I make the distinction between prog rock and metal in that regard. Even though, you're probably right.
I installed a streaming radio app on my Android the other day and listened to a prog rock/metal stream for a while. I had to turn it off, the music was constantly so bad.
I find the problem with prog is often that only a few bands can really handle the level of comfort in complexity, while at the same time still writing a song. So, you get all these songs that are "prog by number": Piano intro, check. Operatic singer, check. Weedly weedly song, check. Good songwriting .... nowhere to be seen.

Regarding Queen's pop phase .... haha, I still to this day love almost every single song of that phase. DT has written many more super-prog songs that I don't care about at all.

rumborak

[slycordinator]

You said they never stay too far from the 'prog metal box' and that it was a narrow box. It's not. That's all I'm saying. Given any subgenre of music, Prog Metal is probably one of the most diverse ones out there. Hell, even multiple prog metal bands don't sound anything like one another. I mean, yeah, there's Queensryche. But if you consider the fact that Mastodon and Symphony X are considered Prog Metal bands, they don't sound anything like Queensryche or DT. And still, it's prog metal. So that's one diverse box.

1) I'm not the one who said that.
2) Claiming that there are genres more narrow than prog metal doesn't mean that prog metal is a highly diverse genre.
3) I'm not so certain if I'd consider Symphony X to be prog metal. Though I certainly wouldn't consider them diverse.
4) The claim also wasn't so much that prog metal is not diverse but that DT's part of it has become less and less diverse the last few years.

Well, then you need to rethink your definition of "Samey" because compared to the past 10 years of DT music, their 90's stuff sounded samey as well.

Well then I guess we have to agree to disagree. I think WDADU, I&W, and Awake are much more different from each other than the sounds in the last few albums.

Regarding Queen's pop phase .... haha, I still to this day love almost every single song of that phase. DT has written many more super-prog songs that I don't care about at all.

rumborak

Reminds me of when this famous conductor was asked by a new composer why it was so difficult to get the general public to listen to his modern compositions that used a lot of stuff like dissonance and such. The guy referenced how a group like Deep Purple wrote lots of fairly simple music and how their music would likely touch far more music lovers than his piece. Granted, he'd just gotten done being the conductor for their Europe concerto tour...

[m0hawk]

DT, for me, is the culmination of a lot of my favourite genres/bands. Seriously, it's like one big melting pot of:

- Movie soundtracks
- Classical/Baroque
- Videogame music
- Thrash metal riffs (Metallica)
- Classical rock (Zep)
- Muse

I was pretty much guaranteed to love DT.

[wammabe]

Because Dream Theater is interesting. When I listen to a DT album, I'm not listening to different variations of the exact same song, I'm actually listening to different songs. Dream Theater also makes actual music. I listen to the radio nowadays and most of the music there completely and utterly pathetic, a bunch of annoying lyrics with a beat in the background, perhaps a note or two are thrown occasionally, and maybe a guitarist with start thrashing some basic chords again and again. Dream Theater makes actual music, however, I have been disappointed by DT's musicality on one or two occasions.

[tgstk2]

i like DT because of the technique all members have (cyurrent and past). i like there song structure i like the solos the drumming the complexity and that gives me energy and ideas for my own music..influence that is....
i dont like high vocals at all...but for some reason DT can pull it of and i like/love it. i like the lyrics and the melodies.

dt is i guess a love em or hate em band...and i love them from day 1.
but i do guess that if i was now young again...maybe i didn't fell in love with them anymore.
there are other complex tech bands as well (nevermore, sympony x and so on)...
so i'nm glad that 21 years ago i feel in love with them....

DT for live

[EstyMaJ]

Because they're so energy. So powah!

I saw what you did there you forgot to type fuk at the end of that sentence though lol!!!!!

[EstyMaJ]

As far as DT goes its simple for me it's the varaity and the great musicianship all around , I love changes only in music though lol!!
But really I do love the way they incorporate there changes in the style within a song they do it right!!
I love the time changes , melodic , and so called wankery , songs with storys / feeling / talent non repetitive and so on.

There are lots of other bands i could comment on but only a handfull that i feel give me the sounds i want to hear.

[reneranucci]

Because they look great, you can dance to their music, they have tons of love songs, and they're on the radio.

[TheGreatPretender]

Specious reasoning. Don't do it.
I see what you're driving at, but I really don't see the big difference between those albums. Yes, there are some songs that deviate from the typical Dream Theater sound, but overall, they are producing pretty much paint-by-numbers songs.
I'm saying that there's a lot of difference between bands in the prog metal genre. When it comes to Dream Theater, there is a lot of a same-y sound. It's not a complaint, it's just how it is.
You were comparing The Answer Lies Within and Honor Thy Father, and deducing that because those songs are so different, prog metal is a broad genre. But one band does not define a genre. That's like me saying, "hey Green Day's 'Good Riddance' and 'American Idiot' sound so different from each other, the punk rock genre must be so varied!"

Paint by numbers would be to have every song be 3 minutes, "Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Solo, Chorus, Outro." That's pretty much 80% of rock/metal songs out there, give or take a few elements. If Dream Theater is Pain by Numbers, then they clearly define their own numbers. Which is still makes them more varied and more progressive than 90% of bands out there.
And yes, it's a good thing that DT doesn't stray too far from their element. Like I said, if DT decided to go all Thrash on one album, I think they'd piss a lot of fans off. Or even the way LaBrie's last album was, if that was a DT album, I'd be pretty disappointed in it. Bands like Paradise Lost ended up losing a LOT of fans from constantly switching up their genre.

I still don't see how you can deny the fact that DT is diverse, when so many people say they like DT BECAUSE they're diverse. Yes, they have their own 'signature' sound, but so does every other band out there. The only bands that don't have a signature sound are the ones that still haven't found their particular direction in music, and for them it's just a matter of time. They'll have the world at their feet by tomorrow, when they sign on the line.

Ahem, anyway, even Queen, in spite its diversity had a clear "Queen" sound, certain signature things about their music that made it easily recognizable as Queen songs.

So we must really have different definitions of 'Diverse' because I don't see how we're still at an impass.

[Guitalguy]

Because they look great, you can dance to their music, they have tons of love songs, and they're on the radio.

Haha, great! 

[setrataeso]

I'm not denying DT is diverse. They have made songs that sound different. But, every song still has a very familiar sound to it. Not exactly the same, but still familiar. Some, like yourself, enjoy the "DT sound" and how consistent it is. I'm not saying I don't enjoy that, but I would very much appreciate a total shakeup to DT's musical direction. Train of Thought went in a heavy direction, primarily, I would like them to try that sort of thing again, but maybe a more classic rock-sounding album, or more melodic.

And by paint-by-numbers, I mean that Panic Attack pretty much has the same sound as Beyond This Life, which has pretty much the same sound as A Rite of Passage, which pretty much has the same sound as The Glass Prison. Dream Theater basically either writes an epic, a ballad, a hyper-technical piece, or a formulaic verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-solo-chorus song. Outside of a few legitimate surprises, pretty much all of their songs fall into one of those categories.

[Ravenheart]

Paint by numbers would be to have every song be 3 minutes, "Intro, Verse, Chorus, Verse, Chorus, Bridge, Solo, Chorus, Outro." That's pretty much 80% of rock/metal songs out there, give or take a few elements. If Dream Theater is Pain by Numbers, then they clearly define their own numbers. Which is still makes them more varied and more progressive than 90% of bands out there.
And yes, it's a good thing that DT doesn't stray too far from their element. Like I said, if DT decided to go all Thrash on one album, I think they'd piss a lot of fans off. Or even the way LaBrie's last album was, if that was a DT album, I'd be pretty disappointed in it. Bands like Paradise Lost ended up losing a LOT of fans from constantly switching up their genre.

Sorry, but 20-minute epics, shitloads of guitar and keyboard solos, and double-bass drums don't immediately qualify a song or a band as diverse or progressive. Any band can get stuck in a rut of repetition, which is what has happened to DT in the last decade or so. Progressive means to expand, diversify, and try out new things.

I still don't see how you can deny the fact that DT is diverse, when so many people say they like DT BECAUSE they're diverse. Yes, they have their own 'signature' sound, but so does every other band out there. The only bands that don't have a signature sound are the ones that still haven't found their particular direction in music, and for them it's just a matter of time. They'll have the world at their feet by tomorrow, when they sign on the line.

Because they haven't done very many new things at this point in their career. Stark differences in tone doesn't count for much, if anything at all. Setra has already said anything else I could possibly add here.

Ahem, anyway, even Queen, in spite its diversity had a clear "Queen" sound, certain signature things about their music that made it easily recognizable as Queen songs.

So we must really have different definitions of 'Diverse' because I don't see how we're still at an impass.

Because you're splitting hairs with all of Setra's perfectly good, reasonable points.

[Gorille85]

I agree with setra and Ravenheart.

Also, avant-garde is what prog use to be back in the days. Bands like Ulver, for example, are really making "progressive" music.

[Ravenheart]

If there is only one actually progressive band in this day and age, it's definitely Ulver.

[Gorille85]

I can't disagree with that.

[TheGreatPretender]

And by paint-by-numbers, I mean that Panic Attack pretty much has the same sound as Beyond This Life, which has pretty much the same sound as A Rite of Passage, which pretty much has the same sound as The Glass Prison. Dream Theater basically either writes an epic, a ballad, a hyper-technical piece, or a formulaic verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-solo-chorus song. Outside of a few legitimate surprises, pretty much all of their songs fall into one of those categories.

That's still more categories than most bands out there have, most of them just stick to the formulaic. But regardless, you can compare two of DT's ballads, you can say, "The Answer Lies Within" and "Hollow Years" are both melancholy ballads, so they're same types of songs. But they still sound different. Obviously the actual songs are different. It's not like one completely makes the other obsolete.

And you're comparing Panic Attack, to Beyond This Life, to A Rite of Passage? They might have similar elements, but comparing the first and the last, Panic Attack does NOT sound like A Rite of Passage. They have very different moods to them.

And like I said, you take any other band, and you're gonna spot the same sorts of similarities between the songs they have. Hell, frankly, Iron Maiden is less diverse than DT, yet people still follow them religiously. And they fully deserve it. So does DT.

I don't know who all these bands are, that are so incredibly diverse that it sounds like listening to two different bands.

Sorry, but 20-minute epics, shitloads of guitar and keyboard solos, and double-bass drums don't immediately qualify a song or a band as diverse or progressive. Any band can get stuck in a rut of repetition, which is what has happened to DT in the last decade or so.

Maybe having one 20 minute epic doesn't make a band diverse. But look at Octavarium. Having an album with songs like "The Root of All Evil," "The Answer Lies Within," "I Walk Beside You," and "Octavarium" on it does. Those songs are all very different in nature, all by one band on one album. That's more diverse than almost any other well known band out there. Hell, it's more diverse than either of DT's first three albums.

Progressive means to expand, diversify, and try out new things.

I thought the 'textbook' definition of progressive music was having frequent, complex time changes?
But try new things? Like what? Should DT make an Industrial album? Or a Death Metal album? Going out of their comfort zone wouldn't make them any more progressive than they already are. DT is DT, and in the past 10 years, the music they made had been just as great, diverse and interesting as they did in the first 15 years of their career.

You can call Ulver new, experimental and interesting all you want, but I'd still rather listen to DT. It's about what sounds good, not about what's "The most innovative".

[Gorille85]

Ulver sounds way better than DT, that's not even a question for me. Also, there's quantity of bands that doesn't follow a formula. Really a shitloads of bands. And yeah, going out of there comfort zone would actually be a step into a more progressive direction.

[Jamesman42]

I can't disagree with that.

Shocking!

[King Postwhore]

I'm into long lovemaking with peaks and valleys and DT is good for that.  Yes Double bass drumming pleases me.

[Ravenheart]

I'm into long lovemaking with peaks and valleys and DT is good for that.  Yes Double bass drumming pleases me.

Why are you always WRONG

[setrataeso]

Saying "they still sound different" is a really thin argument to make. Imagine that? A band made two songs that sound different from one another   Fuck, no matter how sarcastic some of us get about saying certain bands make the same song over and over again, in reality EVERY band makes different songs. Having different moods does not mean that the songs fall into different categories.

Panic Attack: Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-solo-solo-chorus
A Rite of Passage: Verse-chorus-verse-chorus-solo-solo-chorus

Obviously I being mildly facetious. They are clearly not the same song, but if you can't see the similarities besides meekly stating "derp, they might have similar elements", then I'm sorry I can't help you.

The thing is, Dream Theater will always still be undeniably prog, even if they don't do anything progressive ever again. Prog is a label for life.

Look at Rush, they made 4-5 true progressive albums in the 70s-80s, and then really didn't make anything truly "proggy" after that. Yet, every album is still put into the progressive rock category. Rush is in the club for life, even if they aren't trying to make the old prog stuff anymore.
Dream Theater is the same. They haven't tried to make anything truly new in a long time. They know as long as they have some odd time signatures, and a bunch of layered keyboard sounds, they'll be the darling of prog fans.

TheGreatPretender, you seem like you know of plenty of other interesting bands, so I find it surprising that you are still saying that no one holds a candle to Dream Theater when it comes to diversity and creativity, when there are so many bands out there that are truly innovating, rather than just saying "Hey, how about we try a 27/8 time signature for this song? That'll impress some nerds!"

[setrataeso]

I thought the 'textbook' definition of progressive music was having frequent, complex time changes?

If you aren't being sarcastic here, then this is the core of the problem.

[TheGreatPretender]

Ulver sounds way better than DT, that's not even a question for me. Also, there's quantity of bands that doesn't follow a formula. Really a shitloads of bands. And yeah, going out of there comfort zone would actually be a step into a more progressive direction.

Well, that's a matter of preference, then. Ulver sounds to me like "Progressive Industrial".

But okay, let's say DT hasn't been doing any crazy new things lately... What does that make their genre of music then? You tell me, because apart from "Progressive Metal" I can't think of one.

And frankly, personally, I've always considered the idea of "Progressive Music" the music that actually progresses as it goes on, like Change of Seasons, like Dance of Eternity, like Octavarium. Best examples. If there's a hard written rule for what "Progressive Music" is, then I guess any given Progressive Band that I like, I like for reasons other than being "Progressive" because I really don't care how crazy and new and innovative their music is. I care about how good of musicians they are, and how virtuosic and complex their songs get. That's why I like Dream Theater.

TheGreatPretender, you seem like you know of plenty of other interesting bands, so I find it surprising that you are still saying that no one holds a candle to Dream Theater when it comes to diversity and creativity, when there are so many bands out there that are truly innovating, rather than just saying "Hey, how about we try a 27/8 time signature for this song? That'll impress some nerds!"

I know plenty of interesting bands. But as far as I can think of, all of them have their trademark sound the way Dream Theater does. And when it comes to their songs, they still have a relatively same sound from one song to another. And still less diversity amongst themselves than Dream Theater does among itself.

Sure, the argument can be said that Dream Theater has it's really heavy songs, and it's ballads, and all their heavy songs or ballads sound similar. But the fact is, those are still VASTLY opposite sides of the spectrum. Like I said, going back to Honor Thy Father and The Answer Lies Within. The vast majority of bands who play music similar to "Honor Thy Father" wouldn't go NEAR a song like The Answer Lies Within, because they're heavier that and chances are, they'd be afraid that their fans will think "That's soft shit. I want Metal, man!" And vice versa.
So okay, let's not say "Diversity" let's say Dream Theater covers a biggest RANGE of music. Does that make more sense?

[setrataeso]

That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally not innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.

Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.

[TheGreatPretender]

That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.

Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.

Examples?

[Ravenheart]

Dream Theater have the widest range of music out there?

 

[Gorille85]

That's not true at all.
There are some bands who won't touch the opposite side of the spectrum, and yes, they are generally innovative or all that interesting. But there are also lots of bands who will play all sorts of things. Plenty of bands have as much diversity as Dream Theater, if not more.

Yeah, sure Dream Theater covers a wide range of music, but they don't cover the widest range. There are lots of bands who play heavy stuff, light stuff, technical stuff, and epic stuff, and do it all in a far more interesting way than I have seen DT do it recently.

Examples?

https://unexpect.bandcamp.com/album/fables-of-the-sleepless-empire

[Vajra]

Dream Theater have the widest range of music out there?

 

Who does? I'm just curious. I'd say Porcupine Tree is more diverse, they're the only band I know of off the top of my head.

[Jamesman42]

I'd throw Thrice into the mix. They hit a lot of genres (TAI a blatant example).