Gay Marriage Legal in New York!

[Durg]

Animals can't consent to marriage.

You totally missed my point.   

You used the old "Gay marriage can lead to interspecies marriage" argument based on the logic that if the line isn't drawn somewhere, it's drawn no where.

Nope.  Not my point at all.

Oh I apologize, what was the point then?

Society's idea of what is moral is continually sliding as Bosk1 said.  I took a ridiculously immoral idea and gave an example of how it can become a "moral" idea over time.

[tjanuranus]

Already happening, Durg.  Already happening.  In today's society, it's only okay to "discriminate" against white Christian males.  Every other status or personal characteristic under the sun is protected.

Atheists face way more discrimination than Christians in this country. Are you kidding me? If you say you are an atheist people look at you like you are a satanists or a child molester. If you say you are a Christian nobody cares or they invite you over for dinner.

I'd give about 20 more years and I'd say it will be the other way around.

If only that were true..... *Wishes on a star*

[Adami]

Animals can't consent to marriage.

You totally missed my point.   

You used the old "Gay marriage can lead to interspecies marriage" argument based on the logic that if the line isn't drawn somewhere, it's drawn no where.

Nope.  Not my point at all.

Oh I apologize, what was the point then?

Society's idea of what is moral is continually sliding as Bosk1 said.  I took a ridiculously immoral idea and gave an example of how it can become a "moral" idea over time.

How is that not what I said?

[tjanuranus]

Animals can't consent to marriage.

You totally missed my point.   

You used the old "Gay marriage can lead to interspecies marriage" argument based on the logic that if the line isn't drawn somewhere, it's drawn no where.

Nope.  Not my point at all.

Oh I apologize, what was the point then?

Society's idea of what is moral is continually sliding as Bosk1 said.  I took a ridiculously immoral idea and gave an example of how it can become a "moral" idea over time.

You can't even show a nipple without people wanting to burn down buildings in this country. This country is so repressed it's ridiculous. Just because people are becoming more human by NOT infringing on other peoples happiness now doesn't mean morality is going out the window. I would argue not being selfish is a lot more moral than being selfish.

[Durg]

Animals can't consent to marriage.

You totally missed my point.   

You used the old "Gay marriage can lead to interspecies marriage" argument based on the logic that if the line isn't drawn somewhere, it's drawn no where.

Nope.  Not my point at all.

Oh I apologize, what was the point then?

Society's idea of what is moral is continually sliding as Bosk1 said.  I took a ridiculously immoral idea and gave an example of how it can become a "moral" idea over time.

How is that not what I said?

I'm not talking about gay marriage leading to inter-species marriage.  I don't know how else to explain it.  

[ClairvoyantCat]

There is still no way to draw a comparison between two consenting adults wanting to get married and a marriage between a consenting adult and an unconsenting animal.  If your point is about morals, that crosses a line of consensualism that gay marriage doesn't. 

[Adami]

I'm not talking about gay marriage leading to inter-species marriage.  I don't know how else to explain it.  

Your specific example was how it could lead to people marrying dogs based off the logic that if the moral line isn't drawn somewhere, it's drawn nowhere and anything could lead to anything.


However, using a logical line as opposed to a near arbitrary line is more helpful. Hence the comment about consent.

[Durg]

Animals can't consent to marriage.

You totally missed my point.   

You used the old "Gay marriage can lead to interspecies marriage" argument based on the logic that if the line isn't drawn somewhere, it's drawn no where.

Nope.  Not my point at all.

Oh I apologize, what was the point then?

Society's idea of what is moral is continually sliding as Bosk1 said.  I took a ridiculously immoral idea and gave an example of how it can become a "moral" idea over time.

You can't even show a nipple without people wanting to burn down buildings in this country. This country is so repressed it's ridiculous. Just because people are becoming more human by NOT infringing on other peoples happiness now doesn't mean morality is going out the window.

Yeah.  We're so repressed.  ::rollseyes::  Tell that to the people of Sudan or Iran.  People infringe on others happiness all the time.  It doesn't mean we're sooo repressed.  We live in a great, free country.  It's not perfect but it is great.  If gays want to get married in New York then fine.  Let's just make sure that we don't repress the people that believe that a homosexual lifestyle is immoral.

I would argue not being selfish is a lot more moral than being selfish.

Agreed.  However, I don't see how that applies.

[Adami]

Allowing gay marriage isn't repressing people who disagree with it, it has no affect on them in the slightest.

[73109]

I find it funny that almost every single one of the people against gays are probably all for black people, or jews, or muslims. They look at segregation and the holocaust as low points in human history, yet that are attributing to might as well be called gay segregation. Now, you all might say that it was more extreme back then. Blacks could only drink at "Black only" water fountains, but there have been reports about gays being kicked out of public places just because they were gay. Being shunned because they were gay. Congrats guys. Are you any better than rascists back in the 50's and 60's? Not to turn the subject, but to turn the subject, am I the only one that sees anti-gay marriage as a perfectly legitimate reason to hate religion with a fiery passion.

Also, I saw a sign up in NY a few days ago, and I think Bosk and Durg, and the other anti gay marriage folk should listen to...

IF YOU ARE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE...DON'T GET GAY MARRIED.

Why is it up to you, the royal, editorial you, to decide who should and should not enter into what is possibly a life long, loving pact with another human being? That is unfair and needs to be stopped, and one day, when all people protesting gay marriage are long gone, it will be, and what a time it will be then.

[Durg]

There is still no way to draw a comparison between two consenting adults wanting to get married and a marriage between a consenting adult and an unconsenting animal.  If your point is about morals, that crosses a line of consensualism that gay marriage doesn't. 

OK. So it was a bad example. 

I'm not talking about gay marriage leading to inter-species marriage.  I don't know how else to explain it. 

Your specific example was how it could lead to people marrying dogs based off the logic that if the moral line isn't drawn somewhere, it's drawn nowhere and anything could lead to anything.


However, using a logical line as opposed to a near arbitrary line is more helpful. Hence the comment about consent.

As I said above.  It was a bad example.  I create the same type of story with any other idea that is deemed immoral by today's standards.  If enough people rally around it and permeate it into the fabric of society for many years then it will eventually be considered acceptable.

Morality is an ever moving target.  If a society doesn't have something like the Bible to help figure out what is moral than what do we have?  Only one man's opinion verses another.  The Bible is now rejected in our country so we're left with deciding what morality is by majority rules.

[ClairvoyantCat]

The Bible is now rejected in our country so we're left with deciding what morality is by majority rules.

Would you argue this to be a bad thing?

The entire point of that whole "freedom of religion" thing is for the government not to adhere to certain religious values over undiscriminating public opinion. 

[Heaven Outcry Angel]

Wow.  Too bad, New York.  The slide into immorality unfortunately continues.  Oh well.  Not unexpected.

how is this immoral exactly?? I find it disgusting personally but it doesnt effect me why shoul dit not be legal

[Durg]

The Bible is now rejected in our country so we're left with deciding what morality is by majority rules.

Would you argue this to be a bad thing?

The entire point of that whole "freedom of religion" thing is for the government not to adhere to certain religious values over undiscriminating public opinion. 

Sure.  That's great.  Hope it stays that way.

[Super Dude]

Morality is an ever moving target.  If a society doesn't have something like the Bible to help figure out what is moral than what do we have?  Only one man's opinion verses another.  The Bible is now rejected in our country so we're left with deciding what morality is by majority rules.

I don't know about you, but I think that over time as the human condition teaches us more about ourselves and about life in general, I'd rather base my moral suppositions on the lessons we've gained from history than from a document that's based on a moral view of life that's been outmoded for 2000 years at least.

[El Barto]

If gays want to get married in New York then fine.  Let's just make sure that we don't repress the people that believe that a homosexual lifestyle is immoral.

Damned sensible, IMO, and I agree.  Keep in mind, though, the people such as you and Bosk are being overtaken by the people like me who think that our society is far to repressed and would prefer to see it heading down the path towards what you consider immorality.  Personally, I'm hoping for full out debauchery.  Regardless, this isn't oppression of your values.  Nor is it discrimination.  It's merely the shifting sands of societal norms; norms that have benefited y'all for quite some time and are now turning away (in the better, AFAIC). 

[Durg]

If gays want to get married in New York then fine.  Let's just make sure that we don't repress the people that believe that a homosexual lifestyle is immoral.

Damned sensible, IMO, and I agree.  Keep in mind, though, the people such as you and Bosk are being overtaken by the people like me who think that our society is far to repressed and would prefer to see it heading down the path towards what you consider immorality.  Personally, I'm hoping for full out debauchery.  Regardless, this isn't oppression of your values.  Nor is it discrimination.  It's merely the shifting sands of societal norms; norms that have benefited y'all for quite some time and are now turning away (in the better, AFAIC). 

Sadly, I have to agree with you.

edit:  Thanks for the Texas y'all though.  It softens the blow. 

[Durg]

Morality is an ever moving target.  If a society doesn't have something like the Bible to help figure out what is moral than what do we have?  Only one man's opinion verses another.  The Bible is now rejected in our country so we're left with deciding what morality is by majority rules.

I don't know about you, but I think that over time as the human condition teaches us more about ourselves and about life in general, I'd rather base my moral suppositions on the lessons we've gained from history than from a document that's based on a moral view of life that's been outmoded for 2000 years at least.

That would be a great argument if I only believed that it's just a book written by a bunch of old dudes many years ago.  But since I believe that it is the living word of God and that the meanings apply just as much to me today as it does back then, I can't go along with you.

[Super Dude]

I mean honestly even if I believed as you do that the Bible is the living word of God, I would like to think that the bottom line would be no different.  At that time we were at a much earlier stage in our species' development, and those Bible-prescribed morals were what we were at that time mature enough to handle.  And if God does indeed have a hand in the human experience, I would like to think that He'd expect us to progress past certain stages in our development, to allow our morals to mature with us.  Don't you think He'd want us to progress and refine ourselves rather than always staying in the same rut?

[Durg]

I mean honestly even if I believed as you do that the Bible is the living word of God, I would like to think that the bottom line would be no different.  At that time we were at a much earlier stage in our species' development, and those Bible-prescribed morals were what we were at that time mature enough to handle.  And if God does indeed have a hand in the human experience, I would like to think that He'd expect us to progress past certain stages in our development, to allow our morals to mature with us.  Don't you think He'd want us to progress and refine ourselves rather than always staying in the same rut?

Yeah.  He's done that many times.  Under your name says "super jew" so as a jew I'm sure you know all about the times that the people of Israel "matured in their morals".  Over and over again the people wanted to live by their own morals and God would allow them to until eventually they would realize the mistake they made and turn back; often at a great price.  Neal Morse describes it perfectly in his concept album, One.

I think about what Proverbs 14:12 says: "There is a way that seems right to a man, but its end is the way to death." 

These were Jesus' words, "“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.  But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it." Matthew 7:13-14

[Super Dude]

Well, what about the New Testament?  Isn't that supposed to symbolize some sort of next step anyway?  Otherwise it would just be chapters six and onward of the Old Testament.

Also, I just call my self Super Jew just because; people who know me here know that I'm very lax where my own expression of faith goes.

[Durg]

Well, what about the New Testament?  Isn't that supposed to symbolize some sort of next step anyway?  Otherwise it would just be chapters six and onward of the Old Testament.

Sure.  However, the morality didn't change only the way to forgiveness.

[Super Dude]

But that's exactly the point: the moral precepts of Judaism were embellished or trimmed as Christianity's purposes required (or as God's new covenant, for the religiously-inclined).  Plus, as the tired argument goes, there are Christian deeds that are encouraged or required in the New Testament that we certainly have since discarded.

Edit: And to help me hit the point home, a musical number!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_hyT7_Bx9o

[bosk1]

Oooooooooooooooooo!  A musical number!

*dances*

[Durg]

I find it funny that almost every single one of the people against gays are probably all for black people, or jews, or muslims. They look at segregation and the holocaust as low points in human history, yet that are attributing to might as well be called gay segregation. Now, you all might say that it was more extreme back then. Blacks could only drink at "Black only" water fountains, but there have been reports about gays being kicked out of public places just because they were gay. Being shunned because they were gay. Congrats guys. Are you any better than rascists back in the 50's and 60's? Not to turn the subject, but to turn the subject, am I the only one that sees anti-gay marriage as a perfectly legitimate reason to hate religion with a fiery passion.

Also, I saw a sign up in NY a few days ago, and I think Bosk and Durg, and the other anti gay marriage folk should listen to...

IF YOU ARE AGAINST GAY MARRIAGE...DON'T GET GAY MARRIED.

Why is it up to you, the royal, editorial you, to decide who should and should not enter into what is possibly a life long, loving pact with another human being? That is unfair and needs to be stopped, and one day, when all people protesting gay marriage are long gone, it will be, and what a time it will be then.

Call us what ever you want.  You have your reasons for your hate but I suspect it is based on ignorant, unloving "so called" Christians that want to impose their morality on others.  My Christianity teaches me to be loving to others, although I fail.  It also teaches me that I am a sinner just like a homosexual engaging in homosexual sex or a serial killer.  It says in Romans that we are ALL sinners and come short of the glory of God.  Many times we should be trying to remove the plank from our own eye rather than trying to remove the speck from someone else's eye.

The issue for religion shouldn't really be about the marriage law.  It should be about the sin.  What scares Christians so much is just what El Barto said.  We are becoming the minority and it's scary.  People say and do stupid stuff out of fear.  It misrepresents religion and misrepresents the God we serve.

Blacks were discriminated because of the color of their skin.  Not because they were living in a lifestyle that is in conflict with the commands of the Bible.  The two can't be compared.  However, discrimination in general is bad and sends an unloving message.

[bosk1]

Blacks were discriminated because of the color of their skin.  Not because they were living in a lifestyle that is in conflict with the commands of the Bible.  The two can't be compared.  However, discrimination in general is bad and send an unloving message.

This.  But can't we all just dance instead of arguing?

[Durg]

But that's exactly the point: the moral precepts of Judaism were embellished or trimmed as Christianity's purposes required (or as God's new covenant, for the religiously-inclined).  Plus, as the tired argument goes, there are Christian deeds that are encouraged or required in the New Testament that we certainly have since discarded.

Edit: And to help me hit the point home, a musical number!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B_hyT7_Bx9o

Hmm. the economy......

OK.  

Works for me

[ReaPsTA]

I just wish someone could give me a reason engaging in homosexual acts is morally wrong other than "the Bible says so."  At least then I'd feel like there was an actual argument to be had.

[El Barto]

The issue for religion shouldn't really be about the marriage law.  It should be about the sin.  What scares Christians so much is just what El Barto said.  We are becoming the minority and it's scary.  People say and do stupid stuff out of fear.  It misrepresents religion and misrepresents the God we serve.

Just to clarify, I don't think Christians will become the minority.  Frankly,  I don't think y'all will allow it to happen.  What I do think is that society is changing in a way that the average Joe is having less and less of a problem sending a girl a picture of his junk, or watching a video of some hot 19 year old girl getting it on with livestock.  That won't have any affect on their identifying as Christians,  for a variety of reasons.  You might well say that "they're not really Christians, though,"  but you guys have been arguing that point for 2000 years.

[ClairvoyantCat]

We are becoming the minority and it's scary.

Not really, no.  You're losing your government influence marginally, but not becoming a minority by a long shot.

Blacks were discriminated because of the color of their skin.  Not because they were living in a lifestyle that is in conflict with the commands of the Bible.  The two can't be compared.

The color of your skin isn't a choice and homosexuality isn't a choice.  The only line drawn between those that I can see is that the Bible doesn't preach against being black.  Considering that shouldn't and doesn't really count for anything as far as legality I think he made a relevant comparison.

[Durg]

We are becoming the minority and it's scary.

Not really, no.  You're losing your government influence marginally, but not becoming a minority by a long shot.

Blacks were discriminated because of the color of their skin.  Not because they were living in a lifestyle that is in conflict with the commands of the Bible.  The two can't be compared.

homosexuality isn't a choice

OK.  This is my last post for a while because I'm logging off. 

When a guy decides to have sex with another guy, he is making a choice to do that.

Later

[Quadrochosis]

then they are pyschological issues brought on by them desiring to be/indentifying more with the opposite gender, NOT "being born in the wrong body". That isnt how reality works, sorry.

So transgender people are psychologically impure. I'm so glad we live in such a tolerant, accepting Christian world.

[73109]

Dude, Durg, your entire post toward what I said can be summed up, "Yeah, discrimination is wrong, but I do it. I'm a hypocrite. Suck it."

I added that last bit.

But still, my point stands. If you realize that your god wants you to be tollerant of others, is not allowing them to marry being tollerant and accepting? Hell no.

[Dr. DTVT]

When a guy decides to have sex with another guy, he is making a choice to do that.

If I go to a bar and get shit-faced drunk and hook up with a woman and get her pregnant, we made the choice to do that.  And that's better than two gay people marrying...how?

Homosexuality hasn't been proven to be hereditary or choice, there are studies that support both sides and each side picks the studies that support their arguement so I have not idea.  I'm attracted to women and always have been, so I don't find it hard to believe that a guy that likes other guys might just naturally be that way.  Really not the point of this, other than to say that making the choice to persue a homosexual relationship doesn't state anything other than that person wants to be in a homosexual relationship.

There's lots of things that happen that I don't agree with, but I don't advocate the law preventing people from doing things which do not harm others.  Giving gays the right to marry doesn't devalue heterosexual marriages.  It's not going to lead to there being more gay people.  They just want everyone else has the right to persue.

[Adami]

Durg didn't say homosexuality is a choice, he said engaging in the act of it is a choice. He's right, having any kind of sex is a choice. And he also said all sins are equal, he didn't say gay sex was worse than anything else.




Also Durg, there are billions and billions of Christians. You're never ever going to be in the minority, you're just very very very slowly losing the ability to impose your will on other people who don't agree with you.