Author Topic: Do atheists face discrimination?  (Read 25181 times)

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Online Adami

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #105 on: June 20, 2011, 11:42:20 AM »
There's a difference between a business and a personal vote.

Do you know what discrimination means? It's not a legal term. It's not limited to law, business, politics etc. It's the mere act of choosing. No one is talking about punishing or judging those who discriminate, but to not even recognize it is just odd.
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Online Adami

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #106 on: June 20, 2011, 11:45:10 AM »
And for the record, studies have shown that minorities choose to segregate more often than not naturally, and more often than white people, does that make them discriminatory? I think not.

If black people choose to not vote for white people simply because they're white, then that's discriminatory. If black people choose to not interact with white people, that's discriminatory.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #107 on: June 20, 2011, 11:46:01 AM »
There's a difference between a business and a personal vote.

Do you know what discrimination means? It's not a legal term. It's not limited to law, business, politics etc. It's the mere act of choosing. No one is talking about punishing or judging those who discriminate, but to not even recognize it is just odd.

Yes, I realize that the term can be used very loosely, but in this sense the legal use is what I am going with because the loose variety isn't exactly applicable to everyday life. I chose Burger King over McDonald's today. Sure, I technically prefer Burger King and might be a little discriminatory in their favor, but no one is going to go around calling me a McCist and asking me to be a little less of a discriminator.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #108 on: June 20, 2011, 11:46:43 AM »
And for the record, studies have shown that minorities choose to segregate more often than not naturally, and more often than white people, does that make them discriminatory? I think not.

If black people choose to not vote for white people simply because they're white, then that's discriminatory. If black people choose to not interact with white people, that's discriminatory.

In a technical sense you are absolutely correct, 100%. In a practical sense I would say you're way off base.
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Online Adami

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #109 on: June 20, 2011, 11:49:07 AM »
Well if you want to make this a strictly conservative leaning political/legal discussion, then I'll back out, that's not how I view the world.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #110 on: June 20, 2011, 11:50:28 AM »
I don't see the legal angle to be either liberal/conservative, it's simply how it currently is set in the world, and that's how I like to deal with things.

Edit: But it was nice to see us each give each other half the argument. :)
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #111 on: June 20, 2011, 12:49:46 PM »
Yes, but Tick, you just said that every faction faces discrimination, while that might be true, it does indeed downplay the point of the OP.
Yes, making the point that the thread was unnecessary. WE ALL are discriminated against. Why not just have a broader topic called, "Discrimination?

See my point?

No?

Don't care anymore.:tick2:

Quote
More than 2,000 randomly selected people were interviewed by researchers from the University of Minnesota.

Asked whether they would disapprove of a child's wish to marry an atheist, 47.6 percent of those interviewed said yes. Asked the same question about Muslims and African-Americans, the yes responses fell to 33.5 percent and 27.2 percent, respectively. The yes responses for Asian-Americans, Hispanics, Jews and conservative Christians were 18.5 percent, 18.5 percent, 11.8 percent and 6.9 percent, respectively.

When asked which groups did not share their vision of American society, 39.5 percent of those interviewed mentioned atheists. Asked the same question about Muslims and homosexuals, the figures dropped to a slightly less depressing 26.3 percent and 22.6 percent, respectively. For Hispanics, Jews, Asian-Americans and African-Americans, they fell further to 7.6 percent, 7.4 percent, 7.0 percent and 4.6 percent, respectively.

The study contains other results, but these are sufficient to underline its gist: Atheists are seen by many Americans (especially conservative Christians) as alien and are, in the words of sociologist Penny Edgell, the study's lead researcher, "a glaring exception to the rule of increasing tolerance over the last 30 years."

https://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1786422&page=1

From a study conducted by the University of Minnesota in 2006.
Alright, I read the paper last night. Here's a few points I thought to be relevant. First, and parenthetically, science reporting still sucks.

Anyway, it's probably reasonable to conclude that the country is still distrusting of atheists, with a few caveats.  The study is framed as evidence that religious America is intolerant of atheists, but apparently 17 percent of the nonreligious population, defined by the study as people who consider religion "not at all salient to them" have the same view of atheists as the typical evangelical.  

Also, although atheists still lag behind other minority groups in terms of social acceptability - willingness to vote for them in elections, for example - the public is becoming more tolerant of them as a group: "political tolerance for atheists has indeed moved in the same direction as has tolerance for other groups," though at a slower rate than the other groups. The authors also say in the conclusion that the upward trend of acceptance will probably continue.

There also may be another correlation to fish out of the study. It may not be people's religiosity that fuels their disdain for atheism, but their stupidity. The more education participants were, the less likely they were to view atheists as a threat.  

Most importantly, the study didn't look at mistreatment of atheists, but how people view them. And if they're not disenfranchised or denied any other legal rights, I don't think there's much to complain about. And really, why do people's opinions matter so much? If a person is happy with his or her life and atheistic worldview, what does it matter if Pastor Joe Bob Jones of First Baptist church in Dyess, Arkansas doesn't like them?  

Offline GuineaPig

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #112 on: June 20, 2011, 12:58:54 PM »

Most importantly, the study didn't look at mistreatment of atheists, but how people view them. And if they're not disenfranchised or denied any other legal rights, I don't think there's much to complain about. And really, why do people's opinions matter so much? If a person is happy with his or her life and atheistic worldview, what does it matter if Pastor Joe Bob Jones of First Baptist church in Dyess, Arkansas doesn't like them?  

I don't think this sort of argument would be used for visible minorities.  I don't really mind what Pastor Joe says, because I'm not discriminated against in my day-to-day life.  If I was, I'm sure I'd feel differently.  

The way atheists are discriminated against in their lives is different than visible minorities, simply because one's religious affiliations are not as evident as the colour of one's skin.  I guess it is more analogous to homosexuals.  But in some ways, the discrimination can be more hurtful for some because instead of random John Q. Public being hateful towards you, it's your family or people you know well.  I know a number of people who have very strained relationships with the rest of their family solely because they are an atheist.
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Offline Nick

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #113 on: June 21, 2011, 12:28:58 AM »
Funnily enough I removed my religious beliefs from facebook today because my aunt friend requested me. However I do not see this as discrimination in any way.
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #114 on: June 21, 2011, 12:35:54 AM »
I think we need to drop the term discrimination and use the term prejudice instead.

Discrimination implies that SOMETHING is actively being denied atheists. Prejudice is just a feeling of preference for one group over another.

That may be throwing people off

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #115 on: June 21, 2011, 07:06:53 AM »
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discrimination_against_atheists#South_and_Central_America
Quote
In the United States, seven state constitutions officially include religious tests that would effectively prevent atheists from holding public office, and in some cases being a juror/witness, though these have not generally been enforced since the early nineteenth century.

These are some states
https://friendlyatheist.com/2009/12/15/which-states-ban-atheists-from-holding-public-office/

Of the constitution over rules this but an atheist would have to jump through hoops to have it revoked.

The discrimination stands... There are judges that consider non-belief reason enough to prevent parents from seeing there kids after a divorce, people being shunned from there friends and family. i'm sure I can think of more but I just woke up.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #116 on: June 21, 2011, 08:43:30 AM »
7 down, 43 to go.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #117 on: June 21, 2011, 08:51:41 AM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?
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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #118 on: June 21, 2011, 09:15:00 AM »
I hope not

Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #119 on: June 21, 2011, 09:21:35 AM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?

:lol  I was joking.  Not that I think some of those are a bad idea, but no, I was joking.
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Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #120 on: June 21, 2011, 09:27:27 AM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?
Not that I think some of those are a bad idea, but no, I was joking.
Care to elaborate?

Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #121 on: June 21, 2011, 03:20:09 PM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?
Not that I think some of those are a bad idea, but no, I was joking.
Care to elaborate?


I just don't think those laws are a bad idea.  Not sure what else I can say about that.  They would probably be considered unconstitutional under modern First Amendment jurisprudence, but still not a bad idea at all.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #122 on: June 21, 2011, 03:31:42 PM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?
Not that I think some of those are a bad idea, but no, I was joking.
Care to elaborate?


I just don't think those laws are a bad idea.  Not sure what else I can say about that.  They would probably be considered unconstitutional under modern First Amendment jurisprudence, but still not a bad idea at all.

Why would believing in God matter for who runs for public office?  Look at how crooked the religious guys in office nowadays are.  Do you really think an atheist would be any worse than what we've been seeing from religious folks?
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Offline Ħ

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #123 on: June 21, 2011, 03:45:11 PM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?
Not that I think some of those are a bad idea, but no, I was joking.
Care to elaborate?


I just don't think those laws are a bad idea.  Not sure what else I can say about that.  They would probably be considered unconstitutional under modern First Amendment jurisprudence, but still not a bad idea at all.

Why would believing in God matter for who runs for public office?  Look at how crooked the religious guys in office nowadays are.  Do you really think an atheist would be any worse than what we've been seeing from religious folks?
From a legal standpoint, it shouldn't qualify or disqualify anyone.

From the public's standpoint, people like to know a candidate's values and where they get those values.
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Offline Bombardana

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #124 on: June 21, 2011, 03:51:36 PM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?
Not that I think some of those are a bad idea, but no, I was joking.
Care to elaborate?


I just don't think those laws are a bad idea.  Not sure what else I can say about that.  They would probably be considered unconstitutional under modern First Amendment jurisprudence, but still not a bad idea at all.

Why would believing in God matter for who runs for public office?  Look at how crooked the religious guys in office nowadays are.  Do you really think an atheist would be any worse than what we've been seeing from religious folks?
From a legal standpoint, it shouldn't qualify or disqualify anyone.

From the public's standpoint, people like to know a candidate's values and where they get those values.
That seems kind of useless as a means of judging someone, considering people with the same beliefs* can lie on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum, and likewise people of completely opposite beliefs* can share the same political ideology.

*or non beliefs

Offline ehra

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #125 on: June 21, 2011, 07:18:01 PM »
Absolutely incredible.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #126 on: June 21, 2011, 08:50:33 PM »

Most importantly, the study didn't look at mistreatment of atheists, but how people view them. And if they're not disenfranchised or denied any other legal rights, I don't think there's much to complain about. And really, why do people's opinions matter so much? If a person is happy with his or her life and atheistic worldview, what does it matter if Pastor Joe Bob Jones of First Baptist church in Dyess, Arkansas doesn't like them?  

I don't think this sort of argument would be used for visible minorities.  I don't really mind what Pastor Joe says, because I'm not discriminated against in my day-to-day life.  If I was, I'm sure I'd feel differently.  

The way atheists are discriminated against in their lives is different than visible minorities, simply because one's religious affiliations are not as evident as the colour of one's skin.  I guess it is more analogous to homosexuals.  But in some ways, the discrimination can be more hurtful for some because instead of random John Q. Public being hateful towards you, it's your family or people you know well.  I know a number of people who have very strained relationships with the rest of their family solely because they are an atheist.
Judgmental douche bags, including family members, can't be forced to accept the culture, lifestyle and religious beliefs of others.  That's just a part of life and applies to everybody - black, white, homosexual, atheist, it doesn't matter. If that dislike escalates to mistreatment, I'll be right there with you to condemn it. Otherwise, our skeptical friends need to get over themselves.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #127 on: June 21, 2011, 09:36:19 PM »

Most importantly, the study didn't look at mistreatment of atheists, but how people view them. And if they're not disenfranchised or denied any other legal rights, I don't think there's much to complain about. And really, why do people's opinions matter so much? If a person is happy with his or her life and atheistic worldview, what does it matter if Pastor Joe Bob Jones of First Baptist church in Dyess, Arkansas doesn't like them?  

I don't think this sort of argument would be used for visible minorities.  I don't really mind what Pastor Joe says, because I'm not discriminated against in my day-to-day life.  If I was, I'm sure I'd feel differently.  

The way atheists are discriminated against in their lives is different than visible minorities, simply because one's religious affiliations are not as evident as the colour of one's skin.  I guess it is more analogous to homosexuals.  But in some ways, the discrimination can be more hurtful for some because instead of random John Q. Public being hateful towards you, it's your family or people you know well.  I know a number of people who have very strained relationships with the rest of their family solely because they are an atheist.
Judgmental douche bags, including family members, can't be forced to accept the culture, lifestyle and religious beliefs of others.  That's just a part of life and applies to everybody - black, white, homosexual, atheist, it doesn't matter. If that dislike escalates to mistreatment, I'll be right there with you to condemn it. Otherwise, our skeptical friends need to get over themselves.

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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #128 on: June 21, 2011, 09:46:00 PM »

Most importantly, the study didn't look at mistreatment of atheists, but how people view them. And if they're not disenfranchised or denied any other legal rights, I don't think there's much to complain about. And really, why do people's opinions matter so much? If a person is happy with his or her life and atheistic worldview, what does it matter if Pastor Joe Bob Jones of First Baptist church in Dyess, Arkansas doesn't like them?  

I don't think this sort of argument would be used for visible minorities.  I don't really mind what Pastor Joe says, because I'm not discriminated against in my day-to-day life.  If I was, I'm sure I'd feel differently.  

The way atheists are discriminated against in their lives is different than visible minorities, simply because one's religious affiliations are not as evident as the colour of one's skin.  I guess it is more analogous to homosexuals.  But in some ways, the discrimination can be more hurtful for some because instead of random John Q. Public being hateful towards you, it's your family or people you know well.  I know a number of people who have very strained relationships with the rest of their family solely because they are an atheist.
Judgmental douche bags, including family members, can't be forced to accept the culture, lifestyle and religious beliefs of others.  That's just a part of life and applies to everybody - black, white, homosexual, atheist, it doesn't matter. If that dislike escalates to mistreatment, I'll be right there with you to condemn it. Otherwise, our skeptical friends need to get over themselves.

Your argument to me seems to boil down to saying there's no real discrimination or problem, so long as it's not done by the government. I think governmental discrimination is a horrible problem, but I think it's wrong to say that this means there's not an issue within society that we need to address as a society. Hate crimes aren't pereptuated by teh government, but they're still a very real problem for certain minorities, and in certain locations.

Offline El JoNNo

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #129 on: June 21, 2011, 09:47:17 PM »

Most importantly, the study didn't look at mistreatment of atheists, but how people view them. And if they're not disenfranchised or denied any other legal rights, I don't think there's much to complain about. And really, why do people's opinions matter so much? If a person is happy with his or her life and atheistic worldview, what does it matter if Pastor Joe Bob Jones of First Baptist church in Dyess, Arkansas doesn't like them?  

I don't think this sort of argument would be used for visible minorities.  I don't really mind what Pastor Joe says, because I'm not discriminated against in my day-to-day life.  If I was, I'm sure I'd feel differently.  

The way atheists are discriminated against in their lives is different than visible minorities, simply because one's religious affiliations are not as evident as the colour of one's skin.  I guess it is more analogous to homosexuals.  But in some ways, the discrimination can be more hurtful for some because instead of random John Q. Public being hateful towards you, it's your family or people you know well.  I know a number of people who have very strained relationships with the rest of their family solely because they are an atheist.
Judgmental douche bags, including family members, can't be forced to accept the culture, lifestyle and religious beliefs of others.  That's just a part of life and applies to everybody - black, white, homosexual, atheist, it doesn't matter. If that dislike escalates to mistreatment, I'll be right there with you to condemn it. Otherwise, our skeptical friends need to get over themselves.

Your argument to me seems to boil down to saying there's no real discrimination or problem, so long as it's not done by the government. I think governmental discrimination is a horrible problem, but I think it's wrong to say that this means there's not an issue within society that we need to address as a society. Hate crimes aren't pereptuated by teh government, but they're still a very real problem for certain minorities, and in certain locations.

It is being done by the government as pointed out in my post before. So his argument is further bunk.

Offline tjanuranus

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #130 on: June 22, 2011, 02:32:06 AM »
7 down, 43 to go.

Are you suggesting that those laws are a good thing?
Not that I think some of those are a bad idea, but no, I was joking.
Care to elaborate?


I just don't think those laws are a bad idea.  Not sure what else I can say about that.  They would probably be considered unconstitutional under modern First Amendment jurisprudence, but still not a bad idea at all.

I know you run the site and all and that's great i love this site. But man that's really offensive to me and probably many others. Not that i have never said anything offensive to anyone, i've made plenty of mistakes in my life but thinking it's OK for people to be discriminated against because of atheism is fucked up and a clear example of what this thread is talking about.

Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #131 on: June 22, 2011, 08:34:09 AM »
But man that's really offensive to me and probably many others.

Why?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #132 on: June 22, 2011, 08:59:49 AM »
But man that's really offensive to me and probably many others.

Why?

Because you just said discrimination laws are a good idea most likely.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #133 on: June 22, 2011, 09:01:54 AM »
Yes, I understand what was offensive.  My question is why it is offensive.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #134 on: June 22, 2011, 09:05:46 AM »
Probably because he an atheist and supports others who are also?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #135 on: June 22, 2011, 09:07:09 AM »
That still doesn't answer why it is offensive.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #136 on: June 22, 2011, 09:07:36 AM »
Why is it offensive to say Black people can't run for office?
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #137 on: June 22, 2011, 09:13:27 AM »
That still doesn't answer why it is offensive.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #138 on: June 22, 2011, 09:17:22 AM »
I don't understand why you can't grasp why it is offensive to say a person with a certain belief system can't run for public office.  I'm very confused right now. 

A person living in the USA has the freedom of religion.  They can believe in whatever they want and not be persecuted for it.  Saying atheists can't run for office is the same thing as saying muslims can't, christians can't, or jews can't.  It's the same thing as saying Italian Americans can't run, Black americans, Mexican Americans.  The list goes on.

So to say that it's OK to have discrimination laws on the books is offensive because you are saying its OK for these people to be denied the rights that other Americans have.  You're basically saying to them, you are somehow of less worth to the public than a Christian or a Jew. 

I agree with you on a lot of things around here Bosk.  But this, to me, is outrageous.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Do atheists face discrimination?
« Reply #139 on: June 22, 2011, 09:28:34 AM »
1.  Not being eligible for some public offices is not persecution.  E.g., those under 35 are not being "persecuted" by virtue of the fact that they are too young to run for president.  Those who are not American born are not being persecuted b virtue of the fact that they are not eligible to run for president.  We are not talking about persecution or mistreatment here at all, which is why I do not grasp why it is offensive.

2.  With or without those laws, a peson living in the U.S. still has freedom of religion (or lack thereof--although lack of religion is not Constitutionally-protected).

3.  No, it is not the same as saying someone cannot run for office based on their race.

4.  They are not being "denied the rights that other Americans have."
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."