Just how technically complex is Dream Theater?

[TheMadgician]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

I could play blast beats and double bass rolls all day just because its fast means its complex the vast majority of death metal is generic with the same drum patterns and fills across the board. Anyone can play fast with practice.

So because the drums in technical death metal is often generic, the rest of it can't be complex ever? Makes sense.

[MetropolisxPt1]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

I could play blast beats and double bass rolls all day just because its fast means its complex the vast majority of death metal is generic with the same drum patterns and fills across the board. Anyone can play fast with practice.

So because the drums in technical death metal is often generic, the rest of it can't be complex ever? Makes sense.

Death metal lacks alot of style and dynamic changes that exist in other genres and they also write solely in minor

[Adami]

Diversity,dynamics and keys have no play in technical complexity. It might make it boring as all hell, but no less complex.

[TheMadgician]

Pretty sure a fair amount of tech death is actually atonal. And I'm pretty sure Necrophagist, at the very least, does some stuff in diminished.

[Ice9ine]

Dream Theater is incredibly technical, however bands like Protest the Hero and Symphony X on a pure technical level are off the scale.

[iamtheeviltwin]

So because the drums in technical death metal is often generic, the rest of it can't be complex ever? Makes sense.

I think this is the basic misunderstanding here.  Technical Death Metal =/= Death Metal....  While TDM is derived from DM....they are two different beasts in terms of complexity.  TDM is highly complex and well...technical, while standard DM is often just fast and loud.

[Tomislav95]

So because the drums in technical death metal is often generic, the rest of it can't be complex ever? Makes sense.

I think this is the basic misunderstanding here.  Technical Death Metal =/= Death Metal....  While TDM is derived from DM....they are two different beasts in terms of complexity.  TDM is highly complex and well...technical, while standard DM is often just fast and loud.

Yes, there are differences between Scream Bloody Gore(DM) and Symbolic(TDM), two albums from same band(Death).

[tgstk2]

some comments are as lame as fuck..but hey everybody can have an opion about death metal ....and this is not the right board to defend the complexity of death metal at all....

well just let me put it this way...derek roddy can play dream theater, but mike portnoy can not play hate eternal...
that doesn't mean that it's more complex, but for a muscian it's is technical, cause it's a technique to play so fast, for so lang....
and than again, if you somebody says i could play fast double bass and blast beats all day...well first show me the video of that and than we talk further...... lame

[MetropolisxPt1]

some comments are as lame as fuck..but hey everybody can have an opion about death metal ....and this is not the right board to defend the complexity of death metal at all....

well just let me put it this way...derek roddy can play dream theater, but mike portnoy can not play hate eternal...
that doesn't mean that it's more complex, but for a muscian it's is technical, cause it's a technique to play so fast, for so lang....
and than again, if you somebody says i could play fast double bass and blast beats all day...well first show me the video of that and than we talk further...... lame

Derek roddy is known for playing fast single stroke rolls with 64th note double bass.

Their is no comparison between the two.
If your going to compare technique it might be an uphill battle considering MP went to berklee.

[TheMadgician]

Portnoy wasn't actually all that fast. So there's a good chance he might not be able to play death metal.

Also, again, you're really comparing the complexity of more straight up death metal and technical death metal. Pretty different beasts, bud.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

I could play blast beats and double bass rolls all day just because its fast means its complex the vast majority of death metal is generic with the same drum patterns and fills across the board. Anyone can play fast with practice.

Dude, what "death metal" have you listened to? And please, don't answer with something like "It doesn't matter, it's all the same olol"

EDIT: What I mean with that question is, you're putting a whole musical genre in the category of blast beats and double bass rolls. If that's the case, you may have really not had a good exposure to the genre. Of course everyone's entitled to say "I don't like death metal", but normally that is accompained by some well put argument.

Also, I can't help but think you're just defending blindly MP in your posts. Most of your posts here are plagued with "his good but MP is still god olo" and I don't mean this as an offense or anything, but you should really think a little in some smarter ways to post your thoughts and opinions.

[hefdaddy42]

If your going to compare technique it might be an uphill battle considering MP went to berklee.

He went there for a year, he didn't graduate.  Also, technique is not the strongest part of his game.  Plus he never practices.

I mean, I love MP, but he is the first to admit that he isn't the best or most dedicated drummer.

[MetropolisxPt1]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

I could play blast beats and double bass rolls all day just because its fast means its complex the vast majority of death metal is generic with the same drum patterns and fills across the board. Anyone can play fast with practice.

Dude, what "death metal" have you listened to? And please, don't answer with something like "It doesn't matter, it's all the same olol"

EDIT: What I mean with that question is, you're putting a whole musical genre in the category of blast beats and double bass rolls. If that's the case, you may have really not had a good exposure to the genre. Of course everyone's entitled to say "I don't like death metal", but normally that is accompained by some well put argument.

Also, I can't help but think you're just defending blindly MP in your posts. Most of your posts here are plagued with "his good but MP is still god olo" and I don't mean this as an offense or anything, but you should really think a little in some smarter ways to post your thoughts and opinions.

Go back and read some posts, blast beats and double bass rolls are huge characteristics of death metal.  Your quick to try to bash me when the 2 most reknown death metal drummers (Kolias and roddy) are known for being fast and playing blast beats. Their are much more death metal bands that use Blast beats and double bass excessively then DM bands that dont. Nile, Cannible corpse,Death, Malevolent creation, serpents rise, Opeth, Meshuggah, napalm death are some of the DM i listen to.

Blast beats may require chops but not creativity. Tomas Haake is a excellent representation of a metal drummer who uses creativity within his genre

[TheMadgician]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

I could play blast beats and double bass rolls all day just because its fast means its complex the vast majority of death metal is generic with the same drum patterns and fills across the board. Anyone can play fast with practice.

Dude, what "death metal" have you listened to? And please, don't answer with something like "It doesn't matter, it's all the same olol"

EDIT: What I mean with that question is, you're putting a whole musical genre in the category of blast beats and double bass rolls. If that's the case, you may have really not had a good exposure to the genre. Of course everyone's entitled to say "I don't like death metal", but normally that is accompained by some well put argument.

Also, I can't help but think you're just defending blindly MP in your posts. Most of your posts here are plagued with "his good but MP is still god olo" and I don't mean this as an offense or anything, but you should really think a little in some smarter ways to post your thoughts and opinions.

Go back and read some posts, blast beats and double bass rolls are huge characteristics of death metal.  Your quick to try to bash me when the 2 most reknown death metal drummers (Kolias and roddy) are known for being fast and playing blast beats. Their are much more death metal bands that use Blast beats and double bass excessively then DM bands that dont. Nile, Cannible corpse,Death, Malevolent creation, serpents rise, Opeth, Meshuggah, napalm death are some of the DM i listen to.

Blast beats may require chops but not creativity. Tomas Haake is a excellent representation of a metal drummer who uses creativity within his genre

Again, you're saying everything death metal related isn't technical or complex based on the simple fact that the drums of many

Just because all the drums are doing is playing fast/blast beats, doesn't mean the other instruments just stop existing.

[MetropolisxPt1]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

I could play blast beats and double bass rolls all day just because its fast means its complex the vast majority of death metal is generic with the same drum patterns and fills across the board. Anyone can play fast with practice.

Dude, what "death metal" have you listened to? And please, don't answer with something like "It doesn't matter, it's all the same olol"

EDIT: What I mean with that question is, you're putting a whole musical genre in the category of blast beats and double bass rolls. If that's the case, you may have really not had a good exposure to the genre. Of course everyone's entitled to say "I don't like death metal", but normally that is accompained by some well put argument.

Also, I can't help but think you're just defending blindly MP in your posts. Most of your posts here are plagued with "his good but MP is still god olo" and I don't mean this as an offense or anything, but you should really think a little in some smarter ways to post your thoughts and opinions.

Go back and read some posts, blast beats and double bass rolls are huge characteristics of death metal.  Your quick to try to bash me when the 2 most reknown death metal drummers (Kolias and roddy) are known for being fast and playing blast beats. Their are much more death metal bands that use Blast beats and double bass excessively then DM bands that dont. Nile, Cannible corpse,Death, Malevolent creation, serpents rise, Opeth, Meshuggah, napalm death are some of the DM i listen to.

Blast beats may require chops but not creativity. Tomas Haake is a excellent representation of a metal drummer who uses creativity within his genre

Again, you're saying everything death metal related isn't technical or complex based on the simple fact that the drums of many

Just because all the drums are doing is playing fast/blast beats, doesn't mean the other instruments just stop existing.

Another person who takes posts out of context I never said DM was not technical. Someone made the comparison between DR and MP and I have stated they are incomparable, I have not talked about guitar because I do not play guitar therefore i wont comment on the complexity of guitar riffs. DM to my knowledge does not use Music theory, form or composition which adds another tier to the complexity of music.

[Adami]

Metrop, the very fact that you just claimed that Death Metal ignores music theory (or doesn't use it) immediately eliminates you from the argument.

[MetropolisxPt1]

Metrop, the very fact that you just claimed that Death Metal ignores music theory (or doesn't use it) immediately eliminates you from the argument.

I guess i need to go listen to some tech death

[Adami]

Metrop, the very fact that you just claimed that Death Metal ignores music theory (or doesn't use it) immediately eliminates you from the argument.

I guess i need to go listen to some tech death

There's been plenty of it posted in this thread.

[ytse22]

the purest example of odd time signature in dream theater is erotomania in 10/8 what that means is its 10 eighth notes in 4/4 you count a eighth note 1&2&3&4& in 10/8 you would count them 1&2&3&4&5& most American music is in 4/4 but a lot of foreign music uses odd meters but it not strange to them its normal they grew up listening to it just like American grew up listening to  ac dc

[Chrissalix]

As a band, 6/10 technicality. Individually, each member scores at least 8.

Rubbish. In the scheme of things (and we're talking all across music here) DT are almost certainly in the top 5% in terms of technicality in bands. There is stuff every member can do that probably only a select group of other top musicians can do. Some of the stuff is mental. Most if not all songs have complex time signature changes or technically demanding movements. There was a guy who posted his masters theses on here about Scenes from a memory. That's how complex some of the stuff is. You can write an academic theses on it. Dance of Eternity 6/10 for technical? There are 100+ meter changes in there. I know i'm new here and in all probability you won't read this properly but take a look at what you just said and think it over.

[TheMadgician]

Another person who takes posts out of context I never said DM was not technical. Someone made the comparison between DR and MP and I have stated they are incomparable, I have not talked about guitar because I do not play guitar therefore i wont comment on the complexity of guitar riffs. DM to my knowledge does not use Music theory, form or composition which adds another tier to the complexity of music.

Really? Because

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

Implies that it's not complex at all.

Also, I'll post this one. It was originally posted by, I think, dethklok09 in the technical/complex music thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z0kHns850s

I think that'll be a good example of tech death.

[MetropolisxPt1]

Another person who takes posts out of context I never said DM was not technical. Someone made the comparison between DR and MP and I have stated they are incomparable, I have not talked about guitar because I do not play guitar therefore i wont comment on the complexity of guitar riffs. DM to my knowledge does not use Music theory, form or composition which adds another tier to the complexity of music.

Really? Because

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

Implies that it's not complex at all.

Also, I'll post this one. It was originally posted by, I think, dethklok09 in the technical/complex music thread.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7z0kHns850s

I think that'll be a good example of tech death.

I guess if you twist it how you see fit, it could mean that.

That's definitely a drum machine.

[TheMadgician]

I guess if you twist it how you see fit, it could mean that.

That's definitely a drum machine.

It's not really twisting. That's how it comes off. Maybe that's not how you mean it, but that's how it comes off. It pretty much reads as "people actually think death metal is complex? that's so dumb" or "only uninformed people think death metal is complex." Again, you might not have meant it like that, but that's how it comes off.

And why do you say it's a drum machine? If it's the tone, they tend to use triggers for the specific tone. If it's the speed and precision, then no, that's human. Welcome to tech death.

Edit: just checked videos, Marco Pitruzella plays an electronic kit.  But he plays that fast.

Edit 2: Actually, looking up more videos of him, he even says the band uses drum machine programming. He's listen as a member though. And there is a video of him playing this song. And playing it well.

[MetropolisxPt1]

I guess if you twist it how you see fit, it could mean that.

That's definitely a drum machine.

It's not really twisting. That's how it comes off. Maybe that's not how you mean it, but that's how it comes off. It pretty much reads as "people actually think death metal is complex? that's so dumb" or "only uninformed people think death metal is complex." Again, you might not have meant it like that, but that's how it comes off.

And why do you say it's a drum machine? If it's the tone, they tend to use triggers for the specific tone. If it's the speed and precision, then no, that's human. Welcome to tech death.

Edit: just checked videos, Marco Pitruzella plays an electronic kit.  But he plays that fast.

Edit 2: Actually, looking up more videos of him, he even says the band uses drum machine programming. He's listen as a member though. And there is a video of him playing this song. And playing it well.

I know all about marco he is very, very good but when it hit 2:00 i could just tell because it has to be somewhere around 300 bpm.I tried to find drum videos of their drummer but I guess they dont have one for the album. Their just aren't a good amount of drummers that either play that fast or play parts like in that song.

[TheMadgician]

There's more underground extreme metal drummers that could play that than you realize. But most of them are doomed to obscurity.

And again, there's more than just drums in technical music. Listen to Revelations again, and pay attention to every thing else going on in the song.

[MetropolisxPt1]

There's more underground extreme metal drummers that could play that than you realize. But most of them are doomed to obscurity.

And again, there's more than just drums in technical music. Listen to Revelations again, and pay attention to every thing else going on in the song.

Sick drummer magazine is all about the exposure of underground extreme metal drumming. That's where I discovered Marco a few years ago.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

Metrop, the very fact that you just claimed that Death Metal ignores music theory (or doesn't use it) immediately eliminates you from the argument.

I guess i need to go listen to some tech death

Well, funny you posted some death bands you listen to and like Adami said, you also claimed earlier that people who say death metal drummers are great technically don't know a thing of music theory.


Also, I didn't post that to bash you or anything, I'm trying to have a conversation here. But hey, I really don't think you can be taken very seriously since you need to get some things straight in your argumentation. 

[MetropolisxPt1]

Metrop, the very fact that you just claimed that Death Metal ignores music theory (or doesn't use it) immediately eliminates you from the argument.

I guess i need to go listen to some tech death

Well, funny you posted some death bands you listen to and like Adami said, you also claimed earlier that people who say death metal drummers are great technically don't know a thing of music theory.


Also, I didn't post that to bash you or anything, I'm trying to have a conversation here. But hey, I really don't think you can be taken very seriously since you need to get some things straight in your argumentation.  

I guess if you attack someone on the internet enough you might win your argument.

Apparently you don't know how to read because if so you would have realized i said none of the sort. If you want to try to flame at least figure out what I said instead of putting words in my mouth. Complexity and technicality are two completely different monsters. A single stroke roll will never be complex.


Both comments were taken completely out of context by yourself. Do you think attempting to mock someone is having a conversation, you have shown you quickly you resort to insults.

[ricky]

Metrop, the very fact that you just claimed that Death Metal ignores music theory (or doesn't use it) immediately eliminates you from the argument.

I guess i need to go listen to some tech death

Well, funny you posted some death bands you listen to and like Adami said, you also claimed earlier that people who say death metal drummers are great technically don't know a thing of music theory.


Also, I didn't post that to bash you or anything, I'm trying to have a conversation here. But hey, I really don't think you can be taken very seriously since you need to get some things straight in your argumentation. 

Complexity and technicality are two completely different monsters.

no they aren't.