Just how technically complex is Dream Theater?

[jackbauer114]

In terms of "how difficult their stuff is to play" I would rate DT like a 7 like some others have said, but in terms of being able to use technicality well, I would seriously give them a 10.

If you're looking for a super techy band, check out Behold... The Arctopus. This is one of their more listenable songs imo:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j4OrOdgt7nc

Some more listenable B...TA: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PsrATWwxdgE

Ive noticed something lately... As ive been learning stuff like King Crimson and listening to their compositions that have high "statistical density", when i go back and listen to DT, it sounds rather linear and predictable. TDOE used to sound super random and busy and complex to me, and now it sounds almost predictable.

I consider DT to be like Rush almost, the music is complex but still listenable to most people.

[hefdaddy42]

I would just like to say Spiral Architect.

[Bombardana]

In order to answer this question, there must first be made a distinction between "complex" and "technical."  DT's music is technically difficult to play.  I would say that, overall, DT's music is not extremely complex, but rather technical.  

I divide it up the same way.

[jdprsaga]

there are lots of bands out there that make music with more notes per second or more odd time signatures, technically difficult..  but composition (musically) wise they are not as deep  or have no sense (lots of bands listed here) compared to DT.

There are some tunes (not just from DT) that you could say are not technically complex in terms of ability but are much more deeper composition wise (musically complex) than some of the craziest metal band you could hear, and most could not even understand what the theory behind it is.. many times leaving those songs unappreciated.

[razorsedge]

It is quite complex. The reason I love DT so much is that they can craft really awesome music around odd time signatures like no band I've ever heard.

i don't think they really craft their songs around a time  signature the way classical composers will employ a certain meter for specific reasons .  I think they really just write music the way they hear it in their head and it turns out to be rhythmically complex or uneven. 

the comparison i like to draw on is dave brubeck vs. bill evans.  Brubeck was really innovative with his use of meter; he had a facility for odd meters that was really evident in his playing.  the music never sounded like it was being pushed or pulled into a certain meter but rather could only be played with his sense of rhythm.  Evans, on the other hand, had a facility for harmony .  His chord structures were unique and executed flawlessly.  the man seemed to be able to speak with the chords he built, they were creative and evoked very clear images/emotions/what-have-you.

Dream Theater is a great example of this dichotomy; they have a *serious* facility for rhythm.  the way they organize music through time is just unlike many musicians  (much like brubeck).  they are not forcing weird rhythms just because they think it will be more interesting or yield a specific result, it's just how their musical minds organize musical ideas in time. 

this isn't to say that they (or brubeck) lack an ear for harmony, they are extremely accomplished musicians with an extensive knowledge of harmony to draw from, however i don't think they have the same facility for it.

and of course there are exceptions all over the place in the catalogs of the artists discussed above, but for a broad strokes discussion of "how technical is dream theater" i think what i laid out is sufficient. 

[Dellers]

DT is highly technical, and pretty complex. The problem with even more complex music is that it's usually just that - complex. A lot of the links here sound complex for the sake of complexity. It's not as complex like I don't understand anything, but it's not really that musical. Same as with black metal drummers - they are technically skilled, but they don't play anything even remotely close to musically interesting.

[Bombardana]

DT is highly technical, and pretty complex. The problem with even more complex music is that it's usually just that - complex. A lot of the links here sound complex for the sake of complexity. It's not as complex like I don't understand anything, but it's not really that musical. Same as with black metal drummers - they are technically skilled, but they don't play anything even remotely close to musically interesting.

I've bolded the portion of your post that I think is wrong. It's sadly far too common for someone to listen to something complex that they don't like and just dismiss it as only being complex for its own sake. The majority of talented musicians who create technical music are not doing so just for the sake of complexity, the technicality is just a tool in creating their desired style of music. It is musically interesting to the people who made it, and to the people who have an appreciation for that kind of music. The only person who can say if something if complex for its own sake is the person who made it. It's up to you if you find it musically interesting or not, but the intention of the artist is not for you to decide based on whether you like it or not.

[Implode]

I was just going to post that. 

[Arch Benemy]

DT is highly technical, and pretty complex. The problem with even more complex music is that it's usually just that - complex. A lot of the links here sound complex for the sake of complexity. It's not as complex like I don't understand anything, but it's not really that musical. Same as with black metal drummers - they are technically skilled, but they don't play anything even remotely close to musically interesting.

I've bolded the portion of your post that I think is wrong. It's sadly far too common for someone to listen to something complex that they don't like and just dismiss it as only being complex for its own sake. The majority of talented musicians who create technical music are not doing so just for the sake of complexity, the technicality is just a tool in creating their desired style of music. It is musically interesting to the people who made it, and to the people who have an appreciation for that kind of music. The only person who can say if something if complex for its own sake is the person who made it. It's up to you if you find it musically interesting or not, but the intention of the artist is not for you to decide based on whether you like it or not.

Marvellous post

[Metabog]

Very complex. There have been a myriad bands recently who have taken up this kind of technical playing, but I think DT is still one of the most technically proficient and musically complex metal bands around.

Things like Meshuggah are rhythmically interesting but I wouldn't call them technically complex. Same goes for things like BTBAM or PTH. They use atypical techniques, but they don't really take it to the level that DT take it to.

[orcus116]

I'd argue that BTBAM compositions are at a higher level of complexity than DT's. Now lately it's starting to make their songs sound very haphazard so whether or not it's working is another thing. The riffs and lines DT makes nowadays don't really weave the same way they used to so the layering of newer songs just don't have as much depth as they used to.

[Elaitch]

DT is highly technical, and pretty complex. The problem with even more complex music is that it's usually just that - complex. A lot of the links here sound complex for the sake of complexity. It's not as complex like I don't understand anything, but it's not really that musical. Same as with black metal drummers - they are technically skilled, but they don't play anything even remotely close to musically interesting.

I've bolded the portion of your post that I think is wrong. It's sadly far too common for someone to listen to something complex that they don't like and just dismiss it as only being complex for its own sake. The majority of talented musicians who create technical music are not doing so just for the sake of complexity, the technicality is just a tool in creating their desired style of music. It is musically interesting to the people who made it, and to the people who have an appreciation for that kind of music. The only person who can say if something if complex for its own sake is the person who made it. It's up to you if you find it musically interesting or not, but the intention of the artist is not for you to decide based on whether you like it or not.

However, some of the speed based technical metal out there (especially technical death metal) is technical to the verge where it's hardly musical anymore, where the harmonies are almost impossible to make out, and out comes songs that sonds like they just played scales up and down, sped it up to 3 times the speed and then put it on a record... to the point where it at least seems to be complex just for the sake of complexity.

[ricky]

yeah, but the OP's question wasn't "which bands are more complicated than dream theater", which has become the overall direction of the thread.

also, i can't help but point out that when most of you are talking about "complexity", you are only focusing on the rhythmic element of the music (i.e. odd time sigs, poly-rhythms etc.) when in fact there are many other factors than contribute to the complexity (harmony, melody, structure etc.) which i haven't seen discussed much.

[Dellers]

DT is highly technical, and pretty complex. The problem with even more complex music is that it's usually just that - complex. A lot of the links here sound complex for the sake of complexity. It's not as complex like I don't understand anything, but it's not really that musical. Same as with black metal drummers - they are technically skilled, but they don't play anything even remotely close to musically interesting.

I've bolded the portion of your post that I think is wrong. It's sadly far too common for someone to listen to something complex that they don't like and just dismiss it as only being complex for its own sake. The majority of talented musicians who create technical music are not doing so just for the sake of complexity, the technicality is just a tool in creating their desired style of music. It is musically interesting to the people who made it, and to the people who have an appreciation for that kind of music. The only person who can say if something if complex for its own sake is the person who made it. It's up to you if you find it musically interesting or not, but the intention of the artist is not for you to decide based on whether you like it or not.

However, some of the speed based technical metal out there (especially technical death metal) is technical to the verge where it's hardly musical anymore, where the harmonies are almost impossible to make out, and out comes songs that sounds like they just played scales up and down, sped it up to 3 times the speed and then put it on a record... to the point where it at least seems to be complex just for the sake of complexity.

This is just about what I meant.
And for the record, I found some of the links quite interesting. My comment had nothing to do with my taste, but even stuff I like may sound complex for the sake of it. Nothing particularly wrong with it, and it might be great music. Heck, I've even played music (when I was playing sax more regularly) where I know the composer made it more complex to make it harder for the musicians. If easy music bores you to play, you'd probably make something more complex.

[Implode]

Harmonically, it's all nothing compared to true atonal music. A lot of people say that's just random banging on keys, by it's not. Not to sound elitist, but they're only saying that because they don't know how to appreciate it.

[ScioPath]

As a band, 6/10 technicality. Individually, each member scores at least 8.

[wammabe]

I've seen the members play extremely well outside of DT. To me, DT is musically superior than most other rock bands because of the melodies and the beauty of their music. They can play very technical things - if required.

[jayvee]

Ive noticed something lately... As ive been learning stuff like King Crimson and listening to their compositions that have high "statistical density", when i go back and listen to DT, it sounds rather linear and predictable. TDOE used to sound super random and busy and complex to me, and now it sounds almost predictable.

What's "high 'statistical density'," and what King Crimson songs fit that description?

[tgstk2]

Many death metal bands are more complez and technical but dt can be complex and tech as well, however it sometimes feels like the same bag of tricks over and over again.

Over the years listening to dt became easier as its still technical but less complex somehow i got used to dt's technical part and complex parts...
Where nowadays when listneing to necropaghist, beneath the massacre or gojira for example i find this more complex or technical

I still think dt was as tech and complex as they could be on i&w

[jsem]

10 for complexity is the bebop style crafted by Bird and Dizzy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMuItUv9xZc



DT would be at like 7. Which is just perfect. They don't show their talents by being 100% br00tally techincal, their compositions speak in many other ways that just that of techincality. And that's one of the very fine qualities of DT.

[MetropolisxPt1]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

[pain of occupation]

even more hilarious is musicians thinking that all non-musicians are clueless.

[Adami]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

What about all of the musicians making the same claims?

[orcus116]

10 for complexity is the bebop style crafted by Bird and Dizzy...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AMuItUv9xZc\

Amen to that. I remember my saxophone teacher going over 4 bars of a Parker song and commenting on how brilliant the play on different chords structures were. I specifically recall him playing a few bars for me, stopping and out loud going "holy fuck that is musically perfect".

[EpicCookie]

Dream Theater might not be the most complex of all, but damn... their music is hard xd
And I think it's true some bands are just complex for the sake of complexity, which in my opinion isn't good at all

[tgstk2]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

[SystematicThought]

All I got to say is that after listening to a few of the links, Spiral Architect hurts my head. I'll stick with DT's level of complexity 

[Tomislav95]

Listen to Necrophagist or Death etc.
Great and listenable technical death metal bands

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think DT's complexity goes far beyond the speed of their solos or the time changes in their songs. Harmonically, they are very complex. It's to be noted, that since Jordan is in the band the music has become more complex harmonically speaking. The man knows his theory.

[Adami]

I think DT's complexity goes far beyond the speed of their solos or the time changes in their songs. Harmonically, they are very complex. It's to be noted, that since Jordan is in the band the music has become more complex harmonically speaking. The man knows his theory.

I actually found Derek to be quite a bit "complex" in his application of complex theory than JR.

[DarkLord_Lalinc]

I think DT's complexity goes far beyond the speed of their solos or the time changes in their songs. Harmonically, they are very complex. It's to be noted, that since Jordan is in the band the music has become more complex harmonically speaking. The man knows his theory.

I actually found Derek to be quite a bit "complex" in his application of complex theory than JR.

Well yeah, but I can't really have a go on that since there's one album that features DS and 6 albums that feature JR.  But definitely, FII has some very interesting things going on melodically, which kind of supports my statement that a great part of DT's "complexity" is because of the harmony and music theory going on.

[jsem]

I think DT's complexity goes far beyond the speed of their solos or the time changes in their songs. Harmonically, they are very complex. It's to be noted, that since Jordan is in the band the music has become more complex harmonically speaking. The man knows his theory.

I massively second this.

[orcus116]

I dunno, the interweaving harmonies on the first few albums sound way more interesting and complex than any on the newer albums. I can't even recall any memorable counterpoints off the top of my head from the most recent stretch whereas ones from "Take The Time" and "Learning To Live" are vivid in my head.

[MetropolisxPt1]

I think DT's complexity goes far beyond the speed of their solos or the time changes in their songs. Harmonically, they are very complex. It's to be noted, that since Jordan is in the band the music has become more complex harmonically speaking. The man knows his theory.

I massively second this.

spot on JM isnt to shabby himself

[MetropolisxPt1]

I find the hilarity in non muscians commenting on the complexity of death metal.

sorry dude i'm a drummer/guitarplayer for 20 years enjoying all kinds of music.....death metal is indeed THAT complex.. not all. for sure, but the examples for death metal bands who are ...pfff the list would be 023598230598123058 pages.....

so your hilarity can just stop right here as it holds no ground no water no....nothing.

I could play blast beats and double bass rolls all day just because its fast means its complex the vast majority of death metal is generic with the same drum patterns and fills across the board. Anyone can play fast with practice.