Connecticut Passes Bill Giving College Aid To Illegal Immigrants

[Orbert]

They're illegal aliens.  They have no social security number and no green card.  They don't pay taxes because they can't file tax returns.

I'm not sure some of you realize how insanely hard it is to get documented, you don't just show up and sign a piece of paper.

My grandparents did it.  My dad did it.  My mom was born here.  I've heard it's tough, but life's tough.  You do what you gotta do.  If someone's giving away something free, something my family had to work for, and I'm paying for it, yeah I have a right to be pissed off.

[Cool Chris]

I think WA had some proposal like that. Not sure where it ended up, or if it went anywhere. I don't know if I would file it under 'giving them college aid' but I see how it could be construed that way.

I do see the frustration as these state schools are funded through state taxes, which is why in-state families pay much less for state schools than those from other states. And if these immigrant families are not paying taxes, then it isn't fair that they should pay the same tuition as other families from the state.

WA doesn't have state income tax, so I assume stuff such as schools here are funded by property taxes and sales taxes, which everyone is going to pay, regardless of status. In this case, I don't have as hard of a time with in-state 'illegal's getting in-state tuition rates.

I'm not sure some of you realize how insanely hard it is to get documented, you don't just show up and sign a piece of paper.

This wanders off-topic a bit, but everyone thinks getting citizenship should be made easier. While I understand the opinion, I think it should be tough to become a citizen. I think that the harder something is to achieve and obtain, the more it is valued and appreciated. My family who immigrated here jumped through all the hoops and learned the language on their own, and are truly proud to call themselves American (not Serbian-American, or whatever). 

[King Postwhore]

Wouldn't you think that if most illegal immigrants were paying taxes, the government would chase them down?  To me I side with tick but I'd rather see an immigrant get a school visa and then be able to get aid.  If a bill would allow that I'd be all for it

[eric42434224]

I do see the frustration as these state schools are funded through state taxes, which is why in-state families pay much less for state schools than those from other states. And if these immigrant families are not paying taxes, then it isn't fair that they should pay the same tuition as other families from the state.

WA doesn't have state income tax, so I assume stuff such as schools here are funded by property taxes and sales taxes, which everyone is going to pay, regardless of status. In this case, I don't have as hard of a time with in-state 'illegal's getting in-state tuition rates.

Right....same here in FL....most shools are paid with property taxes.
Good point.....if they were all homeowners.  Without a social, you cant finance a house....and I doubt that most illegal aliens bought houses with cash.

[7StringedBeast]

There is a difference between being documented and being a citizen.  You don't have to be a citizen to be documented.  Rumby lived here legally and just last year (or earlier this year?) became a citizen.  The fact is, illegal immigrants are breaking our laws and its not right.  Do it right or pay the price.  We def should not be giving privileges to illegal immigrants.  Let them pay taxes first.  Also I think you should have to be documented and legal to work in the US.  The gov should really go after people who hire illegals.

[Sigz]

They're illegal aliens.  They have no social security number and no green card.  They don't pay taxes because they can't file tax returns.

Except income tax and state tax are both automatically withdrawn from your paycheck. The fact that they can't file tax returns means they can't get any deserved refunds, so theoretically they might actually be paying more than they should.

They obviously pay sales tax. And as for property tax, they (most likely) rent their housing, thus indirectly paying property tax like anyone else who rents.

[7StringedBeast]

Yeah but you can't get a paycheck without having a social security number.  Sooooo?  Either they forged it or they get paid under the table.  Which is probably how it really goes.

[Sigz]

Yeah but you can't get a paycheck without having a social security number.  Sooooo?  Either they forged it or they get paid under the table.  Which is probably how it really goes.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/04/05/business/05immigration.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1

It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most such workers have been forced to buy fake ID's to get a job.

Currently available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. It also means that workers must be paid by the book - with payroll tax deductions.

[El Barto]

The studies are mixed on the taxation question.  The hardest to pin them to is federal tax, since, as you pointed out, they have no SS#.  However,  I'm not sure that an SS number is required to be on a payroll.  Plus there's the whole payroll tax, and while I'm no expert, I don't think the employers are getting around that.   Regardless, most other taxes are indirect and there's no way around it.  They pay property taxes and sales tax.  They might skip out on the tax for buying a car, but they're still paying the various fees (driving around with an expired sticker is a bad plan in their situation).  The Texas comptroller did a study that showed that illegal immigrants actually generated more tax revenue than what was spent on them, thereby making them profitable.   

Edit:  nice find, Sigz

[eric42434224]

So they pay sales tax, they pay property tax (indirectly), and most pay income tax (illegally).
There you go.
Enjoy college Juanita

[Ryzee]

 The gov should really go after people who hire illegals.

This is my opinion when it comes to the whole illegal immigrant issue.  Everyone complains about them taking er jerbs but there's obviously a ton of people, from business owners to private citizens who have them clean their house or mow their lawn, that don't seem to have a problem with the ridiculously low wages they're willing to accept.  Also, the whole "tough shit for the kids, their parents did something wrong so they deserve to be punished for it because life's not fair, etc." argument is just a little to hard-assed for me to get behind.  I'm not a fan of hard-ass stances, because I know if I ever found myself down and out I'd love to find some compassion and charity rather than hard-assery (is that a word? It should be).  Really though I certainly see valid points in both sides of this argument.  It's a tough situation and I have no idea how to straighten it out, and obviously neither does anyone else in our country or else it wouldn't be an ongoing issue.

[Tick]

So they pay sales tax, they pay property tax (indirectly), and most pay income tax (illegally).
There you go.
Enjoy college Juanita

Thanks Eric, that made me laugh hard!

[orcus116]

tick if this whole thing didn't lead to taxes being any higher would you still have a problem with it?

[bosk1]

As far as whether they pay tax, the answer is:  It depends.  Yes, Sigz, some federal and state income tax is withheld from paychecks, but there are lots of ways to get around that and either have less than what is supposed to be withheld, or not have any withholdings at all.  It's as easy as filling out a form.  Property tax, similar thing.  If they are buying property the conventional way and reporting it, yes, they pay property tax.  But there are plenty of ways to take advantage of that system as well.  


Oh, and I'm also with Tick and Orbert, for the most part.

[bosk1]

tick if this whole thing didn't lead to taxes being any higher would you still have a problem with it?

Can't speak for Tick, but I know it wouldn't make a difference to me.  The problem is, providing the same benefits to illegals is one of many unsustainable programs that the government simply cannot offord longterm.

[7StringedBeast]

Instead of getting the kids the discount tuition rate, they should enact something to get the kids on a defined path to become legalized so they start paying taxes and all of that.  After that, they can go to school.

[Tick]

tick if this whole thing didn't lead to taxes being any higher would you still have a problem with it?

Yes, I personally would. There is right and there is wrong. I can't get behind people breaking the law and being rewarded for it. As Orbert said, plenty of people have became citizens the right way. I can't justify wrong. The fact that Connecticut will suffer for it makes it even worse. Things are tough enough in my state . There are no states any harder to survive in then Connecticut.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Correct me if I'm wrong tick, but doesn't Connecticut have the highest per capita income in the US? It's certainly one of the nicest places to live, I hear.

[orcus116]

I think the main cities are pretty slummy, though.

[Ryzee]

tick if this whole thing didn't lead to taxes being any higher would you still have a problem with it?

I can't get behind people breaking the law and being rewarded for it.  I can't justify wrong.

That's kind of a sensationalized and misleading way of putting it.  When you word an argument like that you're making it very difficult for anyone to counter you.  I don't think anybody is ok with somebody "breaking the law and being rewarded for it."  That's like pro-lifers saying pro-choice people "are ok with killing babies" or when people who question our county's policies and actions are told they "hate America."  Of course your position is going to seem indisputable when you put it that way.  Anyway, as a few have already pointed out, the ones being "rewarded" in this scenario are the children of illegal immigrants, and they did not break any laws.  I also find that argument a little funny, because from my point of view and experience it seems that there are plenty of people in American society who get ahead and are rewarded by breaking the rules/law.  Primarily in the sports and corporate business worlds (which aren't necessarilly mutually exclusive).  Funny how a little rule/law breaking can be ignored when it's making money for the right people.

[Tick]

Correct me if I'm wrong tick, but doesn't Connecticut have the highest per capita income in the US? It's certainly one of the nicest places to live, I hear.

Its complicated, PLM. Its the haves and the have nots. Its not as the numbers would lead you to believe. The people with money have tons of it and makes it appear everyone is affluent. Not the case.

[7StringedBeast]

Correct me if I'm wrong tick, but doesn't Connecticut have the highest per capita income in the US? It's certainly one of the nicest places to live, I hear.

Its complicated, PLM. Its the haves and the have nots. Its not as the numbers would lead you to believe. The people with money have tons of it and makes it appear everyone is affluent. Not the case.

Yeah CT has 1 million + homes right next to places you really never want to go ever.  This could be separated by as few as 2 blocks.  CT is all about extremes with the very rich and the very poor.

[7StringedBeast]

tick if this whole thing didn't lead to taxes being any higher would you still have a problem with it?

I can't get behind people breaking the law and being rewarded for it.  I can't justify wrong.

That's kind of a sensationalized and misleading way of putting it.  When you word an argument like that you're making it very difficult for anyone to counter you.  I don't think anybody is ok with somebody "breaking the law and being rewarded for it."  That's like pro-lifers saying pro-choice people "are ok with killing babies" or when people who question our county's policies and actions are told they "hate America."  Of course your position is going to seem indisputable when you put it that way.  Anyway, as a few have already pointed out, the ones being "rewarded" in this scenario are the children of illegal immigrants, and they did not break any laws.  I also find that argument a little funny, because from my point of view and experience it seems that there are plenty of people in American society who get ahead and are rewarded by breaking the rules/law.  Primarily in the sports and corporate business worlds (which aren't necessarilly mutually exclusive).  Funny how a little rule/law breaking can be ignored when it's making money for the right people.

Well technically by the time you are 18 you go to college.  If you are 18 in America you are an adult.  Therefore technically an illegal 18 year old, no matter if they have lived here for quite some time, is still breaking the law.  That's why there should be some way to get them documented and then get them into school.

[El Barto]

I'm willing to bet there are very few illegals that own their homes.  Down here, they're almost exclusively renters and renters pay property tax. 

All in all, it's debatable as to whether or not they're a burden or not.  Like I said, down here they're a subsidy.  That said, I don't see why you wouldn't prefer that they get a good education and become citizens.  Anybody who actually wants to get an education and be an American citizen should be encouraged.  Personally, I'd rather see them in the professional sector than repairing tires or making guacamole.   You guys are basing your opposition largely on the premise that they're harming the state, and that's certainly not established. 

[orcus116]

Plus I'm sure there are plenty of people that were born here that are slumming it harder and cheating the system far worse than how some fear these illegal immigrants are.

[Tick]

I'm willing to bet there are very few illegals that own their homes.  Down here, they're almost exclusively renters and renters pay property tax. 

All in all, it's debatable as to whether or not they're a burden or not.  Like I said, down here they're a subsidy.  That said, I don't see why you wouldn't prefer that they get a good education and become citizens.  Anybody who actually wants to get an education and be an American citizen should be encouraged.  Personally, I'd rather see them in the professional sector than repairing tires or making guacamole.   You guys are basing your opposition largely on the premise that they're harming the state, and that's certainly not established. 

No offense, but if your one of the illegal immigrants who are, "making guacamole" (which was a bit off color by the way), your probably not going to wind up being someones financial advisor or a wall street broker.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

...because, most likely, they haven't been offered the opportunity to make anything else of themselves. Just think of the possibilities a college education would offer!

[King Postwhore]

Plus I'm sure there are plenty of people that were born here that are slumming it harder and cheating the system far worse than how some fear these illegal immigrants are.

Can't we want as a country, both fixed.  

I'd rather see the government work on the problems here (Which are many) then sticking our nose in other problems overseas?

It to me is a shame to see someone like Rumbo and a few personal friends I know who worked hard to get a work/school visa and get citizenship, who pay there taxes.

[Tick]

Plus I'm sure there are plenty of people that were born here that are slumming it harder and cheating the system far worse than how some fear these illegal immigrants are.

Of course there are but that's not the issue here. I never said illegal immigrants are evil people. Many have a work ethic few citizens have. That's a separate discussion. The thing is they are in the country illegally, and that means that they take away a shit load of jobs that American citizens could be doing. and I don't want to hear the cliche, "they do the jobs nobody wants to do" because I don't buy that for a second. They do the jobs people would actually like to get paid a decent wage to do, for next to nothing. That's why the rich don't give a shit that there here. It costs alot of money to remodel your vacation home. Mind as well get it done cheaper.

[Sigz]

I'm willing to bet there are very few illegals that own their homes.  Down here, they're almost exclusively renters and renters pay property tax. 

All in all, it's debatable as to whether or not they're a burden or not.  Like I said, down here they're a subsidy.  That said, I don't see why you wouldn't prefer that they get a good education and become citizens.  Anybody who actually wants to get an education and be an American citizen should be encouraged.  Personally, I'd rather see them in the professional sector than repairing tires or making guacamole.   You guys are basing your opposition largely on the premise that they're harming the state, and that's certainly not established. 

No offense, but if your one of the illegal immigrants who are, "making guacamole" (which was a bit off color by the way), your probably not going to wind up being someones financial advisor or a wall street broker.

You might not, but the point is that your children might.

[Tick]

...because, most likely, they haven't been offered the opportunity to make anything else of themselves. Just think of the possibilities a college education would offer!

There not here legally. It keeps coming back to that oh so important point. That is the bottom line. Period.

[7StringedBeast]

...because, most likely, they haven't been offered the opportunity to make anything else of themselves. Just think of the possibilities a college education would offer!

There not here legally. It keeps coming back to that oh so important point. That is the bottom line. Period.

Some people just don't care about the illegal aspect of it.  I honestly don't know why the law is hardly upheld in this area and why a LOT of people seemingly have no problem with illegals being here. 

Why should I wait on line for the roller coaster when I can just cut everyone and reap the benefits right now.

[El Barto]

...because, most likely, they haven't been offered the opportunity to make anything else of themselves. Just think of the possibilities a college education would offer!

Precisely.  The possibility to do something better would likely be the difference.

The thing is they are in the country illegally, and that means that they take away a shit load of jobs that American citizens could be doing. and I don't want to hear the cliche, "they do the jobs nobody wants to do" because I don't buy that for a second. They do the jobs people would actually like to get paid a decent wage to do, for next to nothing. That's why the rich don't give a shit that there here. It costs alot of money to remodel your vacation home. Mind as well get it done cheaper.

I'd like to make more money at my job, but the market says that my job is worth pretty much what I'm payed to do it.  Sucks.

Some people just don't care about the illegal aspect of it.  I honestly don't know why the law is hardly upheld in this area and why a LOT of people seemingly have no problem with illegals being here. 

Why should I wait on line for the roller coaster when I can just cut everyone and reap the benefits right now.

I'm actually opposed to illegal immigration.  I'd prefer people to take the lawful, accepted route.  I just don't get all riled up about it.  The fact is that they do provide a great deal of value here, and I see a lot of the objection to be unwarranted.  Plus, who should and shouldn't be here is actually a complicated subject.  Birthright citizenship exists, and confounds the whole situation. 

[Tick]

...because, most likely, they haven't been offered the opportunity to make anything else of themselves. Just think of the possibilities a college education would offer!

Precisely.  The possibility to do something better would likely be the difference.

The thing is they are in the country illegally, and that means that they take away a shit load of jobs that American citizens could be doing. and I don't want to hear the cliche, "they do the jobs nobody wants to do" because I don't buy that for a second. They do the jobs people would actually like to get paid a decent wage to do, for next to nothing. That's why the rich don't give a shit that there here. It costs alot of money to remodel your vacation home. Mind as well get it done cheaper.

I'd like to make more money at my job, but the market says that my job is worth pretty much what I'm payed to do it.  Sucks.

Well, whatever you do, you can be sure if illegals start doing it you will make less, and it will suck more.

[AcidLameLTE]

Plus I'm sure there are plenty of people that were born here that are slumming it harder and cheating the system far worse than how some fear these illegal immigrants are.

No doubt about that (same goes for the UK as well).