Connecticut Passes Bill Giving College Aid To Illegal Immigrants

[Perpetual Change]

So, pretend I'm like an 18 year old kid who moved to the United States from Mexico with my parents 8 years ago or so. I want to go to college, and need to apply for financial aid, but I've just found out that my parents never bothered to make me a real citizen in the first place. What harm is done by "waving the magic wand" and someone deciding I'm a citizen now?

[ClairvoyantCat]

So it still goes back to their parents.  Their parents came here for reasons known only to them, but if the idea was to give their children a better future or any of that wonderful idealistic crap, then how hard were they trying to give them a better future if they never did anything to legitimize them?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't it be impossible for the parents to make the child a citizen at this point?  The U.S. won't offer citizenship to anyone who is here without a green card, so that puts the kid in a pretty shitty position right away, because the parents are pretty much unable to make him a legal citizen, being here illegally.  I agree about regulation to some extent, but I think that we'd be pretty cold to not even offer a kid who can't help his situation some basic aid that everyone else gets in a matter like this.  And hell, this isn't even a discussion about giving the kid full citizenship rights, this is just concerning giving him just a bit closer to an equal shot at getting out of his terrible situation.

[El Barto]

I can't help but to notice that the people yelling the loudest about this are the family men.  I suppose I can understand why that might be the case, but I also have to wonder about the flip side.  Directed at Tick or Orbert, if you guys had been born in Ciudad Juarez or Chihuahua, do you think you'd be more likely to spend 10 years down there trying to keep your daughters out of the shootouts while waiting to see if you might be granted citizenship (and you probably won't), or would you maybe sneak into the country and lay flooring in New England or teach English in Illinois?  I really do understand the logic of your positions, but at the same time, it seems pretty likely to me that you guys would be doing exactly what you're railing against in similar circumstances.

[Orbert]

If I moved to another country, for whatever reason and from whatever other place, I would begin the process of becoming a legitimate citizen of that country almost immediately.  I would learn the language and learn the ways of its people.  I would find out what it takes to make my children legitimate citizens as well.

My gripe has never been with those who actually try to do the right thing.  It is with those who do not.  Yes, their kids are now in a shitty position due to the stupidity or laziness of their parents, but life is rough.

So no, I would not be doing what they have done.  I would've taken steps a long time ago to not be in that position.

[Scheavo]

If I moved to another country, for whatever reason and from whatever other place, I would begin the process of becoming a legitimate citizen of that country almost immediately.  I would learn the language and learn the ways of its people.  I would find out what it takes to make my children legitimate citizens as well.

I think this can be easier said than done. If you move to a new country, and don't speak the language, you are goin to be alienated from everyone around you - except the people who do speak the same language as you. You're going to naturally gravitate towards them, because you're a social animal that seeks the presence of like-minded people. This in turn makes it harder for you to actually learn the language, and actually assimilate.

And what if the process to become a legitimate citizen is fubared, so that your chances of actually following through with the system makes it damn near impossible to do so? Would you honestly just go back to your home country, even though there are no opportunities for you there, and you're children will starve and suffer?

[El Barto]

More importantly, who's to say that the people we're discussing in Connecticut aren't trying to do right?  Because they're currently illegal doesn't mean that they aren't currently or haven't been trying.  We're just making the assumption that they're not interested in doing the right thing.   Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position seems to be that they're fucked either way because they haven't yet succeeded.  

[Perpetual Change]

I like where you're going with that, EB. A Mexican immigrant applying for college here might be here illegally, but I can't think of many scenarios where I'd consider or could even see that to be morally reprehensible. I also don't like how we're assuming that no-one does anything to try and become a citizen once they get here. Besides, I think the notion that "Juan" just wants to take his degree back to Mexico is pretty silly. If someone's been living here illegally because their parents brought them here when they were young, and now they want to go to college, we should be making it as easy as possible for them to become citizens: not scaring them away from the process and making them think we're going to have them deported as soon as we find out they're here.

I also find some fault with the logic that illegal immigrants should be paying into these programs that they're benefiting from. I didn't realize that these sorts of programs were designed to financially dependent on people who live 10 to a room and work for weekly wages that most Americans lose in the wash.  

Now, there is one angle where I can see the issue: what about the poor Americans who aren't getting help, because the help is going to non-Americans? I'm not sure how to answer that. I'll leave that one for someone else.

As an off-topic aside (that's gonna make me sound like a terrorist),  don't quite a few states really belong to "Juan" anyway? This is throwing things way off-topic, and kind of a moot issue, but it's not like the US take-over of the Mexican territories was anything more than controversially justified.

I know raising that point is completely ridiculous, but I'm doing so to illustrate how silly our obsession over the Mexican border and keeping illegals out is. With the scope of history in mind, our hostility towards those people more native to this country than we (only 150 years after waging what was sort of an embarrassing war with them anyway) is going to look really bad in the next hegemony's textbooks. Frankly, we're at a point in our history where national borders should be increasingly less important. The paranoia over the Mexican border is something that I just outright do not understand.

[Tick]

perhaps they can just stay where they are

Hey man, no need to get so upset over this. They're just humans like you and me, looking for the best possible way to provide for their families. Wouldn't you do the same?

Besides, what does a little piece of paper that says "I'm an American!" have that's so special that it gets people so up in arms? From my perspective, the person who travels to this country from elsewhere and breaks their back doing hard work to support their families is more of an American than the people that sit on the other side of the fence and keep them away because they're brown. (NOTE: Not calling tick that at all, simply using two [semi] extremes to make a point. Again, NOT implying tick is a racist or anything.)

I don't think people should be allowed to break the law and its ok because they worked hard afterwords. If that's ok with you, fine, but its not ok with me. Ok?
I fully understand all the sentiment for these people, I just don't agree with it. For me its personal as I have experienced issues with my trade due to illegal aliens who undercut my pay wage. Until this scenario happens to you personally, you have no clue what its like.

[El Barto]

And for that matter,  it appears that if you come here illegally, there isn't any current path to citizenship.  The only way to gain naturalization is to come here on a green card.  So despite your efforts to be a good citizen, if you came here to get away from the lunacy that is Mexico, the chances of you become legal are slim to nil. 

[Tick]

So, pretend I'm like an 18 year old kid who moved to the United States from Mexico with my parents 8 years ago or so. I want to go to college, and need to apply for financial aid, but I've just found out that my parents never bothered to make me a real citizen in the first place. What harm is done by "waving the magic wand" and someone deciding I'm a citizen now?

Guess what. If your parents commit insurance fraud, or evade there taxes, or commit any crimes, you as the child of those parents unfortunately suffer for it. That is reality and that is how things work. You don't get a pass when your parents break the law. You can thank them in the end for being upstanding citizens and screwing your future. Don't blame me for not feeling they should be ok because its not there fault there parents are criminals.

[Orbert]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position seems to be that they're fucked either way because they haven't yet succeeded. 

You're wrong.  My position has always been that if you're trying to do the right thing, then I have no problem.  I have stated this position repeatedly.  I know someone personally who just recently was granted a green card.  She moved here, established residency, works hard, and is now legit.  She and her husband actually, who I've also met and worked with.  It can be done.

Look, I know I'm in the minority here, and I've actually learned quite a bit from this discussion, the deal with taxes for example.  But my dad and grandparents did it the right way, I know others who've done it the right way, and if I had to do the same thing, I would do it the right way.  Because of this, I have very little sympathy for people who choose to hide and not try to legitimize their position.

[Perpetual Change]

So, pretend I'm like an 18 year old kid who moved to the United States from Mexico with my parents 8 years ago or so. I want to go to college, and need to apply for financial aid, but I've just found out that my parents never bothered to make me a real citizen in the first place. What harm is done by "waving the magic wand" and someone deciding I'm a citizen now?

Guess what. If your parents commit insurance fraud, or evade there taxes, or commit any crimes, you as the child of those parents unfortunately suffer for it. That is reality and that is how things work. You don't get a pass when your parents break the law. You can thank them in the end for being upstanding citizens and screwing your future. Don't blame me for not feeling they should be ok because its not there fault there parents are criminals.

In this case, I think deporting someone for their parent's mistake is more morally objectionable than following the law, and, in my opinion, I'd probably compare it to sending runaway slaves back to the plantation (hey, slavery! a neat little tie-in with why we got those Mexican territories anyway!)

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the insurance fraud thing, but what you've posted doesn't really answer my question. Right now the people we're talking about apparently don't even have a path toward citizenship. What, exactly, is the drawback to letting them have that?

[hefdaddy42]

The country is full of families who did it the right way.  There is no real reason that there have to be SO MANY people here illegally.  There is a mechanism in place for them to do it legally.  Is it challenging?  Of course.  It should be challenging.  

Citizenship had privileges as well as responsibilities.  I absolutely see no reason why non-citizens, especially ones that have no intention of becoming citizens, should be afforded all of the same privileges as citizens.

[ClairvoyantCat]

Citizenship had privileges as well as responsibilities.  I absolutely see no reason why non-citizens, especially ones that have no intention of becoming citizens, should be afforded all of the same privileges as citizens.

Once again, since when was this about "all of the same privileges"? 

This little tuition act is a way of providing the opportunity for improvement to the illegal aliens already here.  It's nothing close to having all of the same privileges, and accounting for the required 4 years of school, which means 4 years or more of paying taxes, I'd say by that point they've paid up at least enough to deserve this minor benefit.

And, once more, I expect that any illegal immigrant trying to get into a college or university certainly has his/her sights set on becoming a citizen.  We might as well aid them this way to avoid punishing them only for bad luck and a lack of connections.  It'd be a shame if they all missed out on college just because they couldn't get through the silly immigration system in time.  So I see this tuition act as more of an aid to immigrants trying to become U.S. citizens than an encouragement to remain an illegal alien. 

[El Barto]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your position seems to be that they're fucked either way because they haven't yet succeeded.  

You're wrong.  My position has always been that if you're trying to do the right thing, then I have no problem.  I have stated this position repeatedly.  I know someone personally who just recently was granted a green card.  She moved here, established residency, works hard, and is now legit.  She and her husband actually, who I've also met and worked with.  It can be done.

Look, I know I'm in the minority here, and I've actually learned quite a bit from this discussion, the deal with taxes for example.  But my dad and grandparents did it the right way, I know others who've done it the right way, and if I had to do the same thing, I would do it the right way.  Because of this, I have very little sympathy for people who choose to hide and not try to legitimize their position.

So you have no problem with the aliens who are actively working to gain naturalized citizenship?  Well, from what I gathered from the OP, this law specifically applies to aliens who have a path towards that goal, so what's the problem.

Edit: very much along the lines of what Clairvoyant Cat just said.

[Orbert]

I guess my issue is that it still does nothing to address the cause of the problem.  The kids getting the college deal and who must commit to becoming citizens are fine.  Meanwhile nothing is being done to address however many years they lived here illegally, and their parents who brought them here illegally in the first place and have no plans to become legal.  Yes, I'm assuming that they have no plans, and no, I have no stats to back it up.  But I'd bet you that fewer than 1 in 10 have begun the process.  What is their incentive?  They're here, they work, they can send their kids to college.  Maybe in the big picture it's not such a horrible thing, as many of you are saying.  But when there's a way to do it legitimately and people just don't do it because it's easier to pay someone for fake credentials, I have a problem with that just based on principle.

[ClairvoyantCat]

So, you seem to think it's "easier" to remain illegal?  That doesn't seem to be the case to me.  Do you really think all of these immigrants are illegal just for convenience, while they are missing out on citizen benefits and facing deportation while still paying taxes?  I don't.

Plus, as I've said before, you can't become a citizen while living in the United States as an illegal immigrant.  So it's not like they could just start the process if they choose to, it is literally impossible for them to.  Only the immigrants with a green card are allowed to do that, and even for them the chances are very slim.  I see exactly where you're coming from, but I think you're making a few unfair assumptions. 

[Tick]

So, pretend I'm like an 18 year old kid who moved to the United States from Mexico with my parents 8 years ago or so. I want to go to college, and need to apply for financial aid, but I've just found out that my parents never bothered to make me a real citizen in the first place. What harm is done by "waving the magic wand" and someone deciding I'm a citizen now?

Guess what. If your parents commit insurance fraud, or evade there taxes, or commit any crimes, you as the child of those parents unfortunately suffer for it. That is reality and that is how things work. You don't get a pass when your parents break the law. You can thank them in the end for being upstanding citizens and screwing your future. Don't blame me for not feeling they should be ok because its not there fault there parents are criminals.

In this case, I think deporting someone for their parent's mistake is more morally objectionable than following the law, and, in my opinion, I'd probably compare it to sending runaway slaves back to the plantation (hey, slavery! a neat little tie-in with why we got those Mexican territories anyway!)

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the insurance fraud thing, but what you've posted doesn't really answer my question. Right now the people we're talking about apparently don't even have a path toward citizenship. What, exactly, is the drawback to letting them have that?

What the hell was your question? Why can't we wave the magic wand? That's your question?
Fine, lets wave it and have all the people who are illegally in the country magically gone.

[XJDenton]

I think the law is reasonable given the conditions of acquiring said benefits. That said, I find it hard to get riled up about anything involving illegal immigration when ultimately all most of them are doing is an act any one of us would do in the same circumstances.

[TL]

tick, here's a question;
If you'd been set back financially because an American born 100% legal American citizen undercut your rates, would you be as upset at them as you are at these illegal immigrants?

Not to throw accusations around, but honestly, some of your rhetoric in this thread comes off as a bit racist.

[sonatafanica]

So, pretend I'm like an 18 year old kid who moved to the United States from Mexico with my parents 8 years ago or so. I want to go to college, and need to apply for financial aid, but I've just found out that my parents never bothered to make me a real citizen in the first place. What harm is done by "waving the magic wand" and someone deciding I'm a citizen now?

Guess what. If your parents commit insurance fraud, or evade there taxes, or commit any crimes, you as the child of those parents unfortunately suffer for it. That is reality and that is how things work. You don't get a pass when your parents break the law. You can thank them in the end for being upstanding citizens and screwing your future. Don't blame me for not feeling they should be ok because its not there fault there parents are criminals.

In this case, I think deporting someone for their parent's mistake is more morally objectionable than following the law, and, in my opinion, I'd probably compare it to sending runaway slaves back to the plantation (hey, slavery! a neat little tie-in with why we got those Mexican territories anyway!)

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the insurance fraud thing, but what you've posted doesn't really answer my question. Right now the people we're talking about apparently don't even have a path toward citizenship. What, exactly, is the drawback to letting them have that?

What the hell was your question? Why can't we wave the magic wand? That's your question?
Fine, lets wave it and have all the people who are illegally in the country magically gone.

I bet the native americans would have wanted a try with that wand.

[Perpetual Change]

So, let me try and clear things up here: Hef, Orbert, and some people I'm forgetting are saying that they don't think illegal immigrants should just be given a free pass, but should be given help as long as they actively trying to apply for citizenship (even though, as Barto stated, there's no real way to apply once you're here illegally, you're just going to get denied). Tick, on the other hand, is sticking with the law: if people are here illegally, it doesn't matter why. Send 'em back.

So, you seem to think it's "easier" to remain illegal?  That doesn't seem to be the case to me.  Do you really think all of these immigrants are illegal just for convenience, while they are missing out on citizen benefits and facing deportation while still paying taxes?  I don't.

It's definitely not "easier" to remain illegal. For most illegals, there's no way of applying to become citizens without being denied. With that considered, I actually find legislation like this to be barking up the wrong tree: we're willing to pay for the education of illegal immigrants, but were not willing to give them a chance to apply for their citizenship? And I don't even need to begin recounting what happens to illegals who get arrested or something like that. It's certainly not easier for them.

I bet the native americans would have wanted a try with that wand.

 

Tick, that still doesn't answer my question by the way. I want to know what's so bad about giving illegals a chance to become citizens-- or even children of illegals. Right now, they don't really have that.

[King Postwhore]

Me personally, I'm not upset but I'd wish there would be a way to have them become legalized to accept the aid.  That would be a great way to promote taking the test.

PC, like I said before, I wish there was a way to encompass that in a bill but that's me being naive.

[Adami]

Me personally, I'm not upset but I'd wish there would be a way to have them become legalized to accept the aid.  That would be a great way to promote taking the test.

PC, like I said before, I wish there was a way to encompass that in a bill but that's me being naive.

That would be quite ideal, however since it's not the case, I lean toward a premise of harm reduction in almost all ethical dillemas, and that would mean that in this case.....you don't deport.

[hefdaddy42]

Not sure that I buy the argument from some here that it is "impossible" for people here illegally to get legal.  That is one of the points of the bill we're discussing here in the first place - that they begin the process to get legal.

[Tick]

I think the law is reasonable given the conditions of acquiring said benefits. That said, I find it hard to get riled up about anything involving illegal immigration when ultimately all most of them are doing is an act any one of us would do in the same circumstances.

Justifying something still doesn't make it right.

[Tick]

So, pretend I'm like an 18 year old kid who moved to the United States from Mexico with my parents 8 years ago or so. I want to go to college, and need to apply for financial aid, but I've just found out that my parents never bothered to make me a real citizen in the first place. What harm is done by "waving the magic wand" and someone deciding I'm a citizen now?

Guess what. If your parents commit insurance fraud, or evade there taxes, or commit any crimes, you as the child of those parents unfortunately suffer for it. That is reality and that is how things work. You don't get a pass when your parents break the law. You can thank them in the end for being upstanding citizens and screwing your future. Don't blame me for not feeling they should be ok because its not there fault there parents are criminals.

In this case, I think deporting someone for their parent's mistake is more morally objectionable than following the law, and, in my opinion, I'd probably compare it to sending runaway slaves back to the plantation (hey, slavery! a neat little tie-in with why we got those Mexican territories anyway!)

I'm not sure what you're getting at with the insurance fraud thing, but what you've posted doesn't really answer my question. Right now the people we're talking about apparently don't even have a path toward citizenship. What, exactly, is the drawback to letting them have that?

What the hell was your question? Why can't we wave the magic wand? That's your question?
Fine, lets wave it and have all the people who are illegally in the country magically gone.

I bet the native americans would have wanted a try with that wand.

Justifiably so!

[Tick]

tick, here's a question;
If you'd been set back financially because an American born 100% legal American citizen undercut your rates, would you be as upset at them as you are at these illegal immigrants?

Not to throw accusations around, but honestly, some of your rhetoric in this thread comes off as a bit racist.

Please STOP! throwing around the term racist! Its bullshit and does not apply. Its not fucking racist at all!!!!
Were talking about illegal immigrants...ILLEGAL! END OF STORY!

I don't need to dignify an answer to your question because it isn't relevant to the discussion, because it...NEVER HAPPENS!!!!

[XJDenton]

I think the law is reasonable given the conditions of acquiring said benefits. That said, I find it hard to get riled up about anything involving illegal immigration when ultimately all most of them are doing is an act any one of us would do in the same circumstances.

Justifying something still doesn't make it right.

Neither does it being illegal make it wrong.

[King Postwhore]

I think the law is reasonable given the conditions of acquiring said benefits. That said, I find it hard to get riled up about anything involving illegal immigration when ultimately all most of them are doing is an act any one of us would do in the same circumstances.

Justifying something still doesn't make it right.

Neither does it being illegal make it wrong.

I disagree.  Illegal is illegal but I do feel for them and like I say I'd rather the government open opportunities to open doors for them.

[ClairvoyantCat]

In my personal opinion, it certainly a little credulous to dismiss everything that is illegal as being wrong. 

For an obvious reference, helping slaves escape was against the law back in the day but it certainly wasn't the wrong thing to do. 

[King Postwhore]

In my personal opinion, it certainly a little credulous to dismiss everything that is illegal as being wrong. 

For an obvious reference, helping slaves escape was against the law back in the day but it certainly wasn't the wrong thing to do. 

Way to go to extremes Seth.  Like I said, I feel bad for them and would love for them to become citizens the right way with help from the government.  Shouldn't the poison arrows be shot at the government for not addressing this issue?

[ClairvoyantCat]

I sort of meant to take it to an extreme to show why I disagreed with the whole "ILLEGAL!  END OF STORY" argument that tick made.  I wasn't trying to draw a point of comparison between immigration and slavery or anything.  I just think it's silly to brand their side of things as wrong simply because it's against the law, that's all.

And yeah, I agree with you that it would be wonderful for the government to simply find a better system for granting these people citizenship, but while this doesn't happen I think rudimentary benefits such as college tuition that will help these people at least partially get out of their unfortunate decision can never be a bad thing. 

[XJDenton]

In my personal opinion, it certainly a little credulous to dismiss everything that is illegal as being wrong.  

For an obvious reference, helping slaves escape was against the law back in the day but it certainly wasn't the wrong thing to do.  

Way to go to extremes Seth.

In doing so he demonstrated a flaw with the reasoning. Reductio ad absurdum is not always unjustified.

[Perpetual Change]

In my personal opinion, it certainly a little credulous to dismiss everything that is illegal as being wrong. 

For an obvious reference, helping slaves escape was against the law back in the day but it certainly wasn't the wrong thing to do. 

Way to go to extremes Seth.  Like I said, I feel bad for them and would love for them to become citizens the right way with help from the government.  Shouldn't the poison arrows be shot at the government for not addressing this issue?

To be fair, tick does seem to be saying "the legal = the good".

Maybe sending slaves back to their masters is an unfair comparison, but that's not the point. The point is to show tick's reasoning is extreme by showing what tick's reasoning could be used to justify.

Now, if there's a comparison between this in slavery, it wouldn't be the example previously given. But what about those people who wanted the slaves to be sent back to Africa after they were freed? Those ex-Slaves weren't citizens, after all.