How do we end the police state?

[7StringedBeast]

After watching the recent goings on in Fullerton (homeless guy beat and tazed to death),  it occurs to me that cameras are the best way to end the police state.  They recently suspended the 6 cops involved in the incident (pending a through investigation, of course  ),  but only because a video of horrified bystanders made it to youtube.  This sort of thing has happened for 100 years, and nobody ever paid any attention to it unless they were forced to.  Now that there are 20 cellphone videos of every police encounter, people are being forced to.  While this sort of thing will continue to happen, at least some of the perpetrators will be held accountable, and that might actually discourage some of it.  Unfortunately,  I think SCOTUS will ignore it for as long as possible, before eventually ruling that we have no right to film an officer doing "his job".  Until then,  the more people who film cops, the better.

Frankly,  instead of acting like irrational children,  all the gun rights fanatics should be rallying about cameras.  That should be the new 2nd amendment.  None of these gun-nuts are ever going to shoot a cop, or overthrow the government, or fight off the King of England.  The right to bare arms does us absolutely no good when it comes to protecting us from the very thing that it was [ostensibly] put there for.  Cameras will. 

Unless the police state just doesn't give a fuck what they see on the cameras.  Then what?   

[El Barto]

For the time being at least,  they still have to pretend like they give a fuck and that makes a difference.  The thing is,  if nobody holds them accountable, they can do whatever they want.  The people won't actually hold them accountable unless transgressions are shoved right in their face.  The Fullerton video is a fine example of that.  His death would have gotten a couple of paragraphs in a newspaper referring to "excited delirium" and that would have been the end of it.  Now that half the country has heard what happened, and saw onlookers so mortified that they couldn't watch anymore,  nobody can continue to ignore it.

Also keep in mind that if there's enough of a problem, outside LEA will step in.  In this case the FBI is now investigating, and once outside agencies get involved, things do change.  Down here,  from time to time the Texas Rangers will come in, fire an entire police department, and run the show until a new program can be set up.  These sorts of things don't happen if there isn't solid evidence,  and video from 5 angles usually qualifies. 

[7StringedBeast]

Right but now you are saying that you can trust the police or higher up organizations, which I thought was completely against your M.O.

I'm kind of just playing devil's advocate as I agree the right to film police officers should be protected.  But just because you can film, doesn't really protect people if the whole system goes corrupt. 

[El Barto]

Even if the entire system is corrupt,  they still have to keep up appearances.  What's the point of playing by your own rules if you completely invalidate the game?  Corruption has a sort of ceiling where eventually, somebody will step up and put a stop to it, even if only to protect their own ability to play ball. 

[7StringedBeast]

I don't know.  I feel like we just moved so far into the hypothetical that I'm lost haha.

[chknptpie]

So what is the story behind that video? I didn't see anything on local news about that here. There was a drive-by in South Beach and the police surrounded the car involved? They then shot up the car that was involved, probably because they had guns? And then went after civilians that video taped it?

[Super Dude]

I saw mention of it on New York Times, so it's getting some attention.

[El Barto]

The Long Beach shooting was discussed in this thread, probably a page or so up.  Long story short,  a guy fled in a car and nicked a cop.  Johnny was understandably pissed, shot him or the car to bring it to a stop,  surrounded it, then shot the driver up like Sonny on the causeway.  It happened when there were a ton of people watching,  some of whom filmed it, which further angered the cops.

The Fullerton situation was a homeless guy who was suspected of breaking into cars.  6 cops gave him the Rodney King treatment, and tazered him 6 or so times.  He went into a coma and they pulled the plug on him a few days later.  Two people videotaped the scene, but the beating itself wasn't visible in either of them.  The audio is clear on both of them and pretty damned disturbing.  That's actually why I didn't post the youtube links, but they're easily findable.  One of the videos is a guy getting clocked by one of the cops for filming the scene (although he was close enough to warrant it, IMO).  The other is a group of people watching from 50' or so away.  You hear the guy begging them to stop and crying for his dad and a lot of tazer clicking.  Pretty damned depressing, honestly.

The Fullerton incident actually happened July 5.  The cops haven't really done anything about it, but because of the publicity from the vids, they're now finally catching some heat.  There actually is video of the entire incident from a security cam, but they're refusing to release it.  The FBI is now investigating it as a civil rights violation. 

[Scheavo]

Even if the entire system is corrupt,  they still have to keep up appearances.  What's the point of playing by your own rules if you completely invalidate the game?  Corruption has a sort of ceiling where eventually, somebody will step up and put a stop to it, even if only to protect their own ability to play ball. 

I agree with both you and 7SB, and I think a point you're not making (though it could fit into the idea of a corruption ceiling), is inter-agency competition. It's like fire fighters vs. police, or army vs. navy. Corruption or not, there's basic human desire to compete, look good in the eyes of others, and if you can take down some asshole you don't like in the process, while still being corrupt as fuck, more power to ya.

I still think, though, that there's a point where the ability to film doesn't matter to the government. You're taking for granted the ability to share such information, etc.

[El Barto]

In this country, yeah.  We're having to discuss CP in the other thread, and piracy is rampant.  People will voluntarily make every single detail about themselves available because it makes them feel important.  I don't think there's any issue with the sharing of videos in our future.

Something else to consider is that the media might be content to bury a senseless beating, but if it becomes news on it's own,  they'll sensationalize the bejesus out of it.  That Fullerton thing happened a month ago,  but now that it's gotten traction, the story's popping up everywhere.  The media has a huge role in running this country, and I don't know if a police state is actually in there best interest.  Fear certainly is, though. 

[Scheavo]

I wonder if this would help at all?

https://apnews.myway.com/article/20110807/D9OV92200.html


In Britain, cop shoots someone, riots break out. In America, cops shoot someone, and people don't even stir from their couch.

[El Barto]

It takes some simmering for pressure to rise.  It's happened before, and it'll happen again. 

I don't think that riots really help, though.  There's often some injustice that sets people off, but rarely do we look back and say that it was all about, say Rodney King.  He was the impetus, but the mayhem after the first hour was just the heard mentality kicking in and the prospect of a all bills paid shopping spree.  Generally, they just seem to be people blowing off steam and acting like animals because they don't often get to--sort of like the Archons.  I'm not sure how much the political message lingers.

[Scheavo]

From what I can gather though, there isn't any simmering in Britain. They make it sound like every time a cop kills somebody, there's a riot. Any Britain here with a actual point of view (as opposed to mine)?

I guess I would say this is more representative of the political differences in the British people vs. American people. Seems like Britains actually want a democracy, whereas Americans' are just in a stupor - we riot when our sports team wins...

[senecadawg2]

Watch HBO's 'The Wire'. Lots of police abuse there. Very good show, with some very interesting observations on how and why this kind of stuff happens. It's by no means a black and white issue (no pun intended).

[El Barto]

And of course,  here's the flipside to rioting as a means of revolt:
Britain weighs personal freedoms against need to keep order
Showing disapproval is one thing,  but at the end of the day the government will use it to further fuck you.  I've long been of the opinion that Uncle Sammy is always looking for reasons to stick it in a little deeper,  and you've got to weight the benefit of running amok against the justification you'll provide for further buggering from The Man.

[Scheavo]

And of course,  here's the flipside to rioting as a means of revolt:
Britain weighs personal freedoms against need to keep order
Showing disapproval is one thing,  but at the end of the day the government will use it to further fuck you.  I've long been of the opinion that Uncle Sammy is always looking for reasons to stick it in a little deeper,  and you've got to weight the benefit of running amok against the justification you'll provide for further buggering from The Man.

Eventually, though, you have to stand up for your liberties. If our colonists thought like this back in the 1770's, we wouldn't be America.

[El Barto]

If we're using them as the benchmark,  then we ceased being America long ago. 

[Scheavo]

My point is, Britain couldn't be extreme to keep order than declaring War. Talk about sticking it in a little deeper. If you fear the state, they've already won.

[El Barto]

Um, holy shit.  This is a fairly bad precedent. 

Cellphones blocked in SF to hinder transit protest

By PAUL ELIAS, Associated Press – 5 hours ago

SAN FRANCISCO (AP) — Transit officials said Friday that they blocked cellphone reception in San Francisco train stations for three hours to disrupt planned demonstrations over a police shooting.

Officials with the Bay Area Rapid Transit system, better known as BART, said they turned off electricity to cellular towers in four stations from 4 p.m. to 7 p.m. Thursday. The move was made after BART learned that protesters planned to use mobile devices to coordinate a demonstration on train platforms.

"A civil disturbance during commute times at busy downtown San Francisco stations could lead to platform overcrowding and unsafe conditions for BART customers, employees and demonstrators," BART officials said in a prepared statement.

The statement noted that it's illegal to demonstrate on the platform or aboard the trains. BART said it has set aside special areas for demonstrations.

The American Civil Liberties Union questioned the tactic.

"Shutting down access to mobile phones is the wrong response to political protests," the ACLU's Rebecca Farmer said in a blog post.

The Electronic Frontier Foundation said on its website that "BART officials are showing themselves to be of a mind with the former president of Egypt, Hosni Mubarak." Mubarak's regime cut Internet and cellphone services in the country for days early this year while trying to squelch protests demanding an end to his authoritarian rule.

BART officials were confident the cellphone disruptions were legal. The demonstration planned Thursday failed to develop.

"We had a commute that was safe and without disruption," said BART spokesman Jim Allison.

The demonstrators were protesting the July 3 shooting of Charles Blair Hill by BART police who claimed Hill came at them with a knife.

A July 11 demonstration disrupted service during the rush-hour commute, prompting the closing of BART's Civic Center station. Several arrests were made.

[antigoon]

That's shameful and embarrassing. Wow.

[El Barto]

This seems like one of the last remaining things that separated us from Mubarak or Ahmadinejad.  Locking down the internet is one of the first thing desperate totalitarians look to do, and it's one of the first thing that we arrogantly blast them for.  That a municipality can so easily disrupt communications to prevent a protest should absolutely terrify people. 

[Super Dude]

But it's a municipality, which is kinda the key here.  This would be a good time for the state or federal level to prove their worth and drop a train on 'em.

[El Barto]

Are you kidding?  The state and the federales will be the first to defend their right to do it.  The government doesn't seek out ways to invalidate potential tools to enforce law and order. 

[Super Dude]

But it's also not some static body; the federal and state governments are not some monolithic entity without people of conscience.  I mean sure you can probably say that about most people on both of those levels, but I'm sure someone will take notice, at least enough to raise it in a local platform or something.

[Scheavo]

If the system worked like it was supposed to Super Dude, we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with.

The statement noted that it's illegal to demonstrate on the platform or aboard the trains. BART said it has set aside special areas for demonstrations.

[/quote]

The rational behind this is horrible. This isn't the same at all as screaming fire in a crowded theater, and it's disturbing to think that  Government is actively "protecting" the citizens from such "disruptions."

[Super Dude]

If the system worked like it was supposed to Super Dude, we wouldn't be having this discussion to begin with.

No, but does that mean we shouldn't try?  Y'know, send letters and petition to your Congressmen or state reps and ask them to repeal such acts 'n' stuff.  And if that doesn't work, then by all means take to the streets.

[El Barto]

Prosecutors have announced felony charges against two of the Fullerton cops that beat/tazed the homeless guy to death,  including a second degree murder charge.  I suppose I'm glad to see that, but it would appear that the other four cops, and the department itself will be let off the hook.  I'm not sure how you keep a police chief around after all this.  It took him a month to address the situation, and only then because the video had gone national. 

https://www.cnn.com/2011/09/21/justice/california-homeless-death/

[El Barto]

A couple of recent updates to things that were discussed in this thread.  After nearly a year, a judge has finally decided that two of the cops can stand trial for beating Kelly Thomas to death (the Fullerton, CA case).  Out of the 6, only two are being charged, and all of them are still on the Fullerton payroll. 

In a rather pleasant development, Eric Holder's rather worthless DoJ came down quite strongly on the side of citizens recording police activity.  I'm honestly somewhat surprised by this.  Plenty of departments still hassle people for it, but the courts are fairly consistently backing up the citizens, and now they actually have some support from the executive.

https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20120517/03103218948/doj-argues-forcefully-your-right-to-photograph-videotape-law-enforcement.shtml