Why do/don't you go to church?

[Adami]

Yep.  I remember Dawkins saying he doesn't rule out the possibility of a God.  He just says he doesn't believe in God because he thinks the probability is too small.  So, he is by definition an agnostic, but he prefers the term atheist.

But like eric said, it is just marketing.  The line between atheism and agnosticism is very blurry, but the term "atheist" gives the wielder a stronger sense of conviction than the term "agnostic."

I do not see the line between Atheist and Agnostic as being blurry at all.  One says "NO WAY" to there being a God, and one says "Sure...could be...just dont know/not sure"
They are very different and distinct.

Look, I'm just telling you what the prominent leaders of the Atheist movement are saying.  I agree with you, but that's not how they look at it.

Prominent leaders of the atheist movement? Do you just mean famous people who happen to be atheists? Because they have no movement, despite small groups of them.

[bosk1]

Tick and Sonata, please knock it off.  Just because I allow a lot of leeway to post little humorous bits and other stuff that isn't stricly on topic doesn't give you guys free reign to derail the thread with your little snipes at each other.

I've sniped no one, but fair enough.

To give you the benefit of the doubt, your first post appears to just be the typical "drive-by" joke that isn't aimed at anyone, but once Tick responded, your next one is just egging him on.  I'm not officially "warning" either of you or getting on your case, but let's just stop that let the discussion commence, 'k?

[Ħ]

I mean the "Four Horsemen of New Atheism".  These are guys that define themselves as Atheists, but (by eric and SD-N's defnition) are technically agnostic.

EDIT: from Wikipedia: "Atheism is, in a broad sense, the rejection of belief in the existence of deities.[1] In a narrower sense, atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities."  That's basically what I was trying to say a couple posts back.

[Tick]

Tick and Sonata, please knock it off.  Just because I allow a lot of leeway to post little humorous bits and other stuff that isn't stricly on topic doesn't give you guys free reign to derail the thread with your little snipes at each other.

I've sniped no one, but fair enough.

To give you the benefit of the doubt, your first post appears to just be the typical "drive-by" joke that isn't aimed at anyone, but once Tick responded, your next one is just egging him on.  I'm not officially "warning" either of you or getting on your case, but let's just stop that let the discussion commence, 'k?

That works for me.

[eric42434224]

I mean the "Four Horsemen of New Atheism".  These are guys that define themselves as Atheists, but (by eric and SD-N's defnition) are technically agnostic.

But that doesnt blur any line between them (Atheist and Agnostic)....it just makes them wrong in their description of themselves.  Just because they are prominent in the discussion of the topic, they do not define the term.

[Ħ]

Atheists don't believe in God, but say that yes, there is a small possibility.  Agnostics don't believe in God either, but say that there is a fair-sized possibility that there is and we really can't "know".  That's why the line is blurry. 

[Adami]

Atheists don't believe in God, but say that yes, there is a small possibility.  Agnostics don't believe in God either, but say that there is a fair-sized possibility that there is and we really can't "know".  That's why the line is blurry. 

Atheists admit the possibility of a god as much as theists admit the possibility of there being no god.

[sonatafanica]

Atheists don't believe in God, but say that yes, there is a small possibility.  Agnostics don't believe in God either, but say that there is a fair-sized possibility that there is and we really can't "know".  That's why the line is blurry. 

so by those definitions, what is the term for someone who does not believe in the existence of a god whatsoever?

[Ħ]

I don't get it either.  Maybe this would help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa82GQWmvDM at about timestamp 1:05

[eric42434224]

Atheists don't believe in God, but say that yes, there is a small possibility.  Agnostics don't believe in God either, but say that there is a fair-sized possibility that there is and we really can't "know".  That's why the line is blurry. 

Where do you see in the definition of Atheism that an atheist says there is a possibility there is a god?

[Ħ]

Atheists don't believe in God, but say that yes, there is a small possibility.  Agnostics don't believe in God either, but say that there is a fair-sized possibility that there is and we really can't "know".  That's why the line is blurry. 

so by those definitions, what is the term for someone who does not believe in the existence of a god whatsoever?

I don't know anyone that says "There is for sure no God, not even a tiny possibility."

[Adami]

I don't get it either.  Maybe this would help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa82GQWmvDM at about timestamp 1:05

It seems you want to define the terms as follows.

Theist - Someone who believes 100% in a god with no doubt at all.

Atheist - Someone who doesn't believe in god, but is open to being wrong about it.

Agnostic - Someone who doesn't believe in god, but is open to being wrong about it.

The problem with that, is that you're assuming that god exists and that everyone else is open to believing it.

[Ħ]

Atheists don't believe in God, but say that yes, there is a small possibility.  Agnostics don't believe in God either, but say that there is a fair-sized possibility that there is and we really can't "know".  That's why the line is blurry. 

Where do you see in the definition of Atheism that an atheist says there is a possibility there is a god?

They reject God on the basis of probability.  But by doing so, they acknowledge that there is some probability that there is a God.  Just like the teapot analogy in the link I just posted.

Look, the problem with this whole thing is that we've developed two terms to try to categorize millions of people.  Of course the line is going to be blurry.

[Adami]

H, do you admit even the slightest possibility that there is no god? If not, then why is it hard to believe that someone could hold an opposing opinion to your own?

And if you do, then that's the difference between Atheist and Agnostic.

[Ħ]

I don't get it either.  Maybe this would help: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qa82GQWmvDM at about timestamp 1:05

It seems you want to define the terms as follows.

Theist - Someone who believes 100% in a god with no doubt at all.

Atheist - Someone who doesn't believe in god, but is open to being wrong about it.

Agnostic - Someone who doesn't believe in god, but is open to being wrong about it.

The problem with that, is that you're assuming that god exists and that everyone else is open to believing it.

No, I'm assuming that no one can prove there is no god, therefore everyone has to acknowledge the possibility (no matter how slim).  Just like I don't think anyone is under my bed right now, I have to acknowledge that there is a 1/10000 chance of it being so.

[Adami]

Well then I will ask directly, again, do you BrotherH admit even the slightest possibility that there is no god?

[eric42434224]

Then if EVERYONE agrees that there is a chance that there might/might not be a god, and that the fact is that we just cant know.....isnt everyone Agnostic?  

[Ħ]

Well then I will ask directly, again, do you BrotherH admit even the slightest possibility that there is no god?

Yeah.  But like I've said a billion times, the line is pretty slim and you're not going to capture billions of beliefs in 3 categories.

Atheism -- belief in no god because they see possibility of god as very slim
Agnosticism -- belief in no god, but possibility is wishy washy, and there's no way to know whether there is a god or not
Theism -- belief in god because they see possibility of god as very high

[Adami]

You can't boil belief down to probabilities. I doubt anyone here has said "Well the chances of god existing have finally reached over 51%, looks like it's time to start going to church".


Also agnosticism as a term has as much to do with god as it does everything in existence or non existence.

[eric42434224]

Well then I will ask directly, again, do you BrotherH admit even the slightest possibility that there is no god?

Yeah.  But like I've said a billion times, the line is pretty slim and you're not going to capture billions of beliefs in 3 categories.

Atheism -- belief in no god because they see possibility of god as very slim
Agnosticism -- belief in no god, but possibility is wishy washy, and there's no way to know whether there is a god or not
Theism -- belief in god because they see possibility of god as very high

Those seem just to be your own personal definitions.  
I was under the impression that these were more correct definitions:

Atheism -- Do not believe there is a god, and reject beleiefs in god
Agnostic -- Are unsure either way, as they do not think it is something that can be known or truly understood.
Theism -- Belief in a god.

Just like sexual preference or skin color, not everyone fits neatly in the category.  There are degrees for sure.  But that doesnt change the definitions.

[Ħ]

I completely agree with eric's definitions.  Let me be very clear and say that the definitions I posted are those that atheists and agnostics use to define themselves.  And they are wrong for doing so, for the criticisms you are pointing out.

[eric42434224]

Ask someone the simple question:
"Do you believe in God?"

If the answer is:
"yes" -- Theist
"no" -- Atheist
"maybe/not sure" -- Agnostic

There.  Done.  Lets Eat.  Its Taco night at the eric42434224 household

[Adami]

I completely agree with eric's definitions.  Let me be very clear and say that the definitions I posted are those that atheists and agnostics use to define themselves.  And they are wrong for doing so, for the criticisms you are pointing out.

You're the first person I've heard use those definitions, all of the atheists and agnostics I have ever met have gone with the same definitions as Eric.

[bosk1]

Ask someone the simple question:
"Do you believe in God?"

If the answer is:
"yes" -- Theist
"no" -- Atheist
"maybe/not sure" -- Agnostic

There.  Done.  Lets Eat.  Its Taco night at the eric42434224 household

What kind of meat?  Can I bring any toppings/condiments, or are we covered?

[Bombardana]

Atheism/Theism are statements of belief. "I do believe"/"I don't believe".
Agnosticism is a statement of certainty. "I don't know if there is or isn't....".

They aren't mutually exclusive. A believer who is open to being wrong is an Agnostic Theist, a non-believer who is open to being wrong is an Agnostic Atheist.

I don't think anyone here would claim with 100% certainty that their belief is correct. So we can just dispense with even mentioning Agnosticism because we all come from the position of being open to discussion and debate on the topic of belief.

[Ħ]

They aren't mutually exclusive.

That's a good way to look at it.

[bosk1]

Bombardana, I get it, but I don't think it is useful in most discussions to make that distinction.  IMO, slicing it that thinly usually just leads to tangential argument about whether we are applying the correct label rather than actually discussing whatever the topic at hand is (Exhibit A:  this thread).  

[GuineaPig]

Bombardana, I get it, but I don't think it is useful in most discussions to make that distinction.  IMO, slicing it that thinly usually just leads to tangential argument about whether we are applying the correct label rather than actually discussing whatever the topic at hand is (Exhibit A:  this thread).  

That's what I've always said.  If you believe in god(s), you're a theist.  There's no reason to assign a label indicating how sure you are of that belief.  If you don't believe in gods, you're an atheist.  It doesn't matter how open you are to whatever possibilities; as long as you don't believe, you're an atheist.

[skydivingninja]

Ask someone the simple question:
"Do you believe in God?"

If the answer is:
"yes" -- Theist
"no" -- Atheist
"maybe/not sure" -- Agnostic

There.  Done.  Lets Eat.  Its Taco night at the eric42434224 household

This is pretty much it.  BrotherH I'm not really sure how your definitions are at all relevant, especially when there isn't much of an Atheist "movement" and even less of an Agnostic one.  Actually, pretty much everything Adami responded to you with is spot-on, and this post from Eric is the icing on the cake.

So why do you go to church or not go to church?  I'm actually interested to hear what people say about this!  Figures the one time I post in P/R...

[alirocker08]

I don't go to church because I'm not religious. The only reason I do go to church is for Christenings and Weddings. I say the prayers, I sing the hymns, and when I was younger I did use to go to Church as a part of the Sunday School, I'd help out the younger kids with the activities and the end of year Nativity. I respect those who do have a religion, and have the dedication to go to church on a regular basis, but I guess it's just not my thing

[Dublagent66]

I don't go because there are just as many hypocrites in church as anywhere else.  They don't go for fellowship or spiritual learning.  They go to compare clothing, 1 up each other, and talk behind people's backs.  They do it now just like they did 35 years ago when I used to go to church.  It's a farce and they do it all in the name of god. 

[AndyDT]

I agree. But don't people need other people for connection and growth?

[eric42434224]

You dont need a church to spend time with other people

[AndyDT]

I said connection and growth.

[Chino]

I haven't been to church since my last day of school when I was in 8th grade. I've been back a few times for funerals but I don't count those. When you don't have faith, I find it impossible to sit through mass, or even go in the first place. Two days after my fall last September, a priest came in my hospital room and said he wanted to join me in a prayer. I politely said that I coudnt do that as I am not a man of faith. He pulled his white thing out of is collar, sat down, and just bull shitted with me for a half hour or so. He was a pretty cool guy.