Poll

How much do you like BC&SL?

It's my new favorite
33 (5.4%)
It's up there with the best of 'em
247 (40.4%)
It's good
198 (32.4%)
It's O.K.
107 (17.5%)
Never Enough
27 (4.4%)

Total Members Voted: 597

Author Topic: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions  (Read 130310 times)

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Offline Mosh

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #875 on: July 30, 2023, 11:55:37 PM »
Probably so they wouldn't degrade audio quality by overloading a single side of vinyl. Shattered Fortress and The Best of Times together would've made up around 26 minutes which is really pushing the limits of vinyl. Instead you get Side 2 closer to 20-21 minutes (more standard) and Side 3 closer to 18 or 19 minutes.
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Offline Wim Kruithof

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #876 on: July 31, 2023, 12:21:07 AM »
Probably so they wouldn't degrade audio quality by overloading a single side of vinyl. Shattered Fortress and The Best of Times together would've made up around 26 minutes which is really pushing the limits of vinyl. Instead you get Side 2 closer to 20-21 minutes (more standard) and Side 3 closer to 18 or 19 minutes.

I see, that sound very logic, thanks!
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Offline PixelDream

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #877 on: November 14, 2023, 03:05:02 PM »
Since someone resurrected this thread this year while the last post was from 2019, Iím grabbing this thread to comment on The Shattered Fortress.

Since hearing the news of MPís return Iíve revisiting the discography and this is a track that I did enjoy when BC&SL came out, but I kind of forgot about. Itís an ending finale and reprises all those riffs and melodies from the earlier Twelve Step songs but holy smokes it really kicks so much more ass than I remember. I love how they tie everything together and JLBís vocals are absolutely great here. I swear in moments he almost sounds like he did on Awake.

Iíve always undervalued this one, seeing it as an Ďeasyí way to wrap up the suite since it doesnít feature a lot of new composition, but now years later itís such a joy to hear all those iconic riffs and themes from earlier 12SS tracks come together in an epic finale.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #878 on: November 14, 2023, 06:08:24 PM »
I'm relistening to ANTR just because it's been years. It's really good but I am only 7.5 minutes in. I am fearing the MP "growls" coming up

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #879 on: November 14, 2023, 06:16:28 PM »
Ironically, I listened to this today as well. I have never cared for The Shattered Fortress. I thought it was a huge let down. I love the "I am responsible" part at the end.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #880 on: November 14, 2023, 06:24:47 PM »
Aww man, I love TSF. I can see why people wouldn't like it though.

I am not listening to the whole album, but I also decided to listen to The Best of Times. I am liking it more than I remember, but I still wouldn't want to come back to it often at all. The end guitar solo is about to come on and I about to come on.

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #881 on: November 14, 2023, 06:27:04 PM »
I thought The Shattered Fortress was great live.

The Best Of Times is one of my favorite DT songs.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #882 on: November 14, 2023, 06:28:26 PM »
Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #883 on: November 14, 2023, 06:31:32 PM »
Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.


I think the intro is beautiful. I find the song very touching.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline bosk1

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #884 on: November 14, 2023, 06:31:49 PM »
I like The Shattered Fortress, but the "Take all of me" TROAE reprise takes the reprises a bit too far for me because it just sounds jarring and interrupts the flow of the song for me (although the lyrics for that part fit perfectly for what the 12 steps require), as does the Repentence reprise.  But that said, I still really enjoy it, and it was fantastic live on the DT12 tour.
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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #885 on: November 14, 2023, 06:32:55 PM »
It's wicked jarring.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #886 on: November 14, 2023, 06:43:45 PM »
Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.


I think the intro is beautiful. I find the song very touching.

I agree, now. Still isn't climbing my rankings much, but I appreciate it more.

TROAE in TSF is jarring, I can't aruge that. But it has a cool atmosphere. Maybe it needed something to lead into that part.

Offline Mosh

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #887 on: November 14, 2023, 07:11:33 PM »
I really liked TSF live and in context of the entire suite, but on the album it kinda breaks the flow for me. Some of the callbacks are definitely a little jarring out of context and makes the whole thing feel disconnected from the rest of the album.
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Offline Dedalus

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #888 on: November 14, 2023, 07:19:40 PM »
Curious personal fact about listening to this album:
Before the album came out I had a small accident that led to complications and I almost died. I stayed in the hospital for a long time. When BCSL came out I listened to it a lot doing physiotherapy to try to walk again. I just remember thinking WTF!? (I think for the album and for the situation I was in  :biggrin:).

This album always reminds me of physical therapy exercises.  :lol

I consider DT's worst album.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2023, 12:38:55 PM by Dedalus »

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #889 on: November 15, 2023, 06:45:28 AM »
I consider DT's worst album.
I think I agree.  I have always held WDADU as their worst, with BC&SL just above.  But I am on the verge of flip-flopping them.
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Offline crystalstars17

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #890 on: November 15, 2023, 10:18:19 AM »
Ironically, I listened to this today as well. I have never cared for The Shattered Fortress. I thought it was a huge let down. I love the "I am responsible" part at the end.

I don't care for this song as a whole but I do agree with you about that part.
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Offline PixelDream

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #891 on: November 16, 2023, 12:00:50 AM »
I agree with ppl here that in The Shattered Fortress, the reprise of The Root of All Evil ďTake all of me..Ē is incredibly jarring. The JP solo over the TROAE riff is amazing though and indeed the ĎI am responsibleí part wraps it all up nicely.
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Offline JeopardousRaven

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #892 on: November 16, 2023, 01:31:20 AM »
This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I always hated how The Shattered Fortress ends with the same drum/bass riff that The Glass Prison starts with. If the whole suite is about Mike's journey and growth from alcoholism to sobriety, why the fuck would the suite end as it began? It makes sense for a song like Octavarium where the entire concept is moving in a circle but it just feels stupid and ill-thought-out for the 12 Step Suite. Am I missing something here?

Offline wolfking

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #893 on: November 16, 2023, 04:13:05 AM »
The whole 12SS gets let down by the last two songs.  I actually enjoy TSF, but it it feels pretty anti climatic when it's up against the first three parts.
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Offline Stadler

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #894 on: November 16, 2023, 05:44:23 AM »
Oh wow, that's cool, I never thought highly of it besides the solo, but I am appreciating it more now.


I think the intro is beautiful. I find the song very touching.

I do too.  I don't really get the hate for that song, honestly. Other than maybe one line, I think the lyrics are thoughtful and well done.  The solo is amazing, as is the sort of "jam" at the end. 

Honestly, the only thing I don't like about BC&SL is the sort of cliched growled one word technique ("FREEDOM!", "SERENITY!") in Shattered Fortress. I hate that technique.

Offline Wim Kruithof

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #895 on: November 16, 2023, 07:06:19 AM »
For me, the Shattered Fortress is the perfect ending to a beautifully vulnerable suite, in which Portnoy leaves virtually nothing of his self-esteem intact. Without a doubt, lyrically the 'receive part' is the most beautiful of the entire suite. Portnoy has overcome his pain and addiction and considers himself blessed. From that perception, it makes sense to share, after so much has been given to you. I find the prayer that follows very emotional and - as a Christian - I fully recognize myself in it. To say, I recognize the desire to fulfill the prayer, but also the feeling of lacking what I should. The most beautiful part of the lyrics in the entire discography.
Wim pointed out something I don't see mentioned very often...

Offline Lax

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #896 on: November 16, 2023, 07:15:15 AM »
Lost my long answer, I'm so pissed lol

I disliked this album, same as systematic chaos.

-Nightmare : Not as ballsy as the glass prison and without the beautiful agony part the song would have had way less impact.
-A rite of passage : forgettable
-TSF : Nice collection of riffs, especially when the end meets the glass prison backwards. But song sounds like an angry compilation of previous ones.
-Wither : Vomited and never heard again.
-Tuscany : I like part1 which is progAF. Part2 is strangely paced and sounds like an outro but isn't one...

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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #897 on: November 16, 2023, 07:51:39 AM »
This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I always hated how The Shattered Fortress ends with the same drum/bass riff that The Glass Prison starts with. If the whole suite is about Mike's journey and growth from alcoholism to sobriety, why the fuck would the suite end as it began? It makes sense for a song like Octavarium where the entire concept is moving in a circle but it just feels stupid and ill-thought-out for the 12 Step Suite. Am I missing something here?
Well, I am kind of pissed that I never thought about this before.

You are right.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #898 on: November 16, 2023, 08:03:30 AM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #899 on: November 16, 2023, 08:39:44 AM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #900 on: November 16, 2023, 08:46:39 AM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
Not sure to which part you are referring.

Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #901 on: November 16, 2023, 10:06:02 AM »
This may have been mentioned earlier in the thread but I always hated how The Shattered Fortress ends with the same drum/bass riff that The Glass Prison starts with. If the whole suite is about Mike's journey and growth from alcoholism to sobriety, why the fuck would the suite end as it began?

I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.



Offline Revenge319

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #902 on: November 16, 2023, 10:55:50 AM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.

I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.

I agree with these. However, I also think it could symbolize someone else's fall into alcoholism. With the last movement being about taking on the responsibility of helping others just as others have helped you through AA, I think that it is being depicted as a cycle in that sort of way. You've struggled through it, came out on top having changed for the better, and now you're prepared to help anyone who's going through the same thing. And I think the chord at the very end shows that things will be different for you, that even though the threat still exists, you won't fall back into temptation so easily.

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #903 on: November 16, 2023, 12:12:30 PM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
Not sure to which part you are referring.
Your entire proposal
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #904 on: November 16, 2023, 02:19:18 PM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.
In what way?
Not sure to which part you are referring.
Your entire proposal
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Offline Madman Shepherd

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #905 on: November 16, 2023, 05:32:30 PM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.

I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.

I agree with these. However, I also think it could symbolize someone else's fall into alcoholism. With the last movement being about taking on the responsibility of helping others just as others have helped you through AA, I think that it is being depicted as a cycle in that sort of way. You've struggled through it, came out on top having changed for the better, and now you're prepared to help anyone who's going through the same thing. And I think the chord at the very end shows that things will be different for you, that even though the threat still exists, you won't fall back into temptation so easily.

I like that take too!

It's funny. I always hated this song but their performance on the Along for the Ride tour changed my mind. I way prefer that to the album version though and I still don't love the song.

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #906 on: November 16, 2023, 05:47:42 PM »
Nah, it's just concluding it. You could also argue that ends almost the same way (barring the static), that chord that strikes could signify that he is going back into the static a changed man through the 12 steps.

I think it makes sense. The riff almost lingers at the end and for alcoholics they've never fully recovered. The urge is always there. There will always be a reminder that that one sip is waiting for you and to think of your full journey as you decide if it'll be that big of a deal to just fall off the wagon for a minute or hour or twenty years.

I agree with these. However, I also think it could symbolize someone else's fall into alcoholism. With the last movement being about taking on the responsibility of helping others just as others have helped you through AA, I think that it is being depicted as a cycle in that sort of way. You've struggled through it, came out on top having changed for the better, and now you're prepared to help anyone who's going through the same thing. And I think the chord at the very end shows that things will be different for you, that even though the threat still exists, you won't fall back into temptation so easily.

I like that take too!

It's funny. I always hated this song but their performance on the Along for the Ride tour changed my mind. I way prefer that to the album version though and I still don't love the song.

Do you have a version you're fond of you can share? (if it's allowed)

I missed it on my massive DT break.

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #907 on: November 16, 2023, 06:31:09 PM »
James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #908 on: November 16, 2023, 07:12:30 PM »
James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.

I just watched it, holy shit that was better than the album version!

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Re: Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions
« Reply #909 on: November 16, 2023, 07:19:55 PM »
James, just hit the Breaking The Fourth Wall version.

I just watched it, holy shit that was better than the album version!

Haha, I'm guessing that's why he told you to check it!
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