Black Clouds & Silver Linings: Reactions

[Ħ]

So my opinion of BCSL went from it being a top 4 album to it being pretty terrible.

[Mladen]

To me, it ended up at number #7, but it used to be in top 5. It's still really, really good, though. 

[JasonScandopolous]

middle of the pack, wouldn't recommend the album as a whole to anybody (as I would I&W if this were 15 years ago, or SFAM at any time).  I would recommend some of the songs (count of tuscany, maybe rite of passage; ANTR is ruined by the MP vocal section).

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Black clouds was a pretty mediocre album. It wasn't the worst, or one of the worst 2, but it certainly wasn't very good. Nightmare is a top quality song, the guitar solo in Best of Times is unbelievably good and one of Petrucci's best. Rite of Passage and Wither were god awful. I had to check the CD booklet to make sure that I actually purchased a DT album and not something else. Shattered Fortress wasn't BAD, it was just a bunch of other riffs that I had already heard in other songs, thrown together to make sausage. Count of Tuscany was and continues to be pretty lame. It has decent guitar solos-- I'm fine with almost all the guitar work on the album actually-- and ends well minus all that WHOA WHOA nonsense, but the lyrics are just the worst I've ever heard from ANY band in ANY genre, and there are a bunch of other depressing moments I won't rehash.

So yeah, the album isn't the worst, as it has a fantastic song and an even better epic guitar solo, and great riffs sprinkled throughout the album, but it's certainly nothing to write home about, and I absolutely hated Rite of Passage and Wither. Usually they only have 1 song like that on an album. In this case it was a wasted 14 minutes.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

My feelings:

This album, stylistically, is very similar to its predecessor. And while that's not something to be all the excited about, something about Black Clouds seems so much more refreshed and energetic. Lyrically, it's not fantastic but it doesn't stick out like the sore thumb a'la Systematic Chaos. Musically, it's the best thing the band have done since Six Degrees.

Final Verdict:

1.)Scenes From a Memory
2.)Six Degrees
3.)Awake

4.)Black Clouds & Silver Linings
4.)Images and Words

6.)Train of Thought
6.)Octavarium

8.)Falling Into Infinity
9.)Systematic Chaos
10.)When Dream and Day Unite

My Review: https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=2336.0


DISCUSS

Just for clarification... You think that BCSL is equally good as Images & Words?

[lateralus88]

Just to clarify, you won't be hearing from him anytime soon. He's banned. lol.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Just to clarify, you won't be hearing from him anytime soon. He's banned. lol.

For that opinion? lol

[lateralus88]

Naw, for other things.


lol







lol

[KevShmev]

I still like this album quite a bit, but almost every song has a part I wish were different or simply not there:

A Nightmare to Remember - do I even have to say it?
A Rite of Passage - the songs seems out of gas already by the second verse; it picks back up during the instrumental section, but that second verse is a snoozer.
Wither - this is fine as is (although it would have a hard time even making my top 50)
The Shattered Fortress - that keyboard solo should be chucked in the abyss.
The Best of Times - Some of the lyrics are extremely weak and awkward, which is a shame considering the subject matter.  Musically, it is stellar.
The Count of Tuscany - The "I" part during the choruses I can do without.  And I still wish minutes 4-9 were nearly as good as the rest of the song. 

A Dramatic Turn of Events was a major upgrade over BC&SL, and I am thrilled that they seem to have gotten back to writing concise songs, even the longer ones, that don't have parts or sections that make me wonder why they are there.

[SeRoX]

I'd even forgotten there is an album like that. Sad but true. Probably haven't listened it for a while, like 1 year.

When it came out I love it, then I was starting to like it, like it less, less and less. TCOT is the highlight point of the album. Wither is my second favourite. TSF and ANTR are OK. I can live without the rest.

[BlobVanDam]

I still think it's great. Aside from TBOT and TSF, which I've never been all that into, I can still listen to any of the rest any time. ANTR still sounds as fresh and energetic as ever, and the instrumental intro of TCOT still slays me every time. Some of the best instrumental work they've ever done hands down.

I think BCASL's biggest weakness is just the long songs. If you don't like a couple of tracks, it's a relatively big chunk of the album gone. Not as much of a problem to not like a couple of tracks when the album has 10+ tracks.

[manticore999]

Just for grins I tried to listen to it today. i say tried, because it's just so bad that I couldn't get through a single song without cringing and skipping to the next song.  Usually the albums I don't like have at least one song I can listen to.  BCSL doesn't have one good song on it, imho.  Thank goodness adtoe is as good as it is.  Gives me hope. 

[Tis BOOLsheet]

Just for grins I tried to listen to it today. i say tried, because it's just so bad that I couldn't get through a single song without cringing and skipping to the next song.  Usually the albums I don't like have at least one song I can listen to.  BCSL doesn't have one good song on it, imho.  Thank goodness adtoe is as good as it is.  Gives me hope.

I hear where you're coming from. I think Nightmare is an excellent track though. None of the other tracks is excellent.

[OsMosis2259]

Im lovin this album so far and i think it is their best since six degrees


SFAM
SDOIT
I&W
Awake
BC&SL
ToT
FII
SC
OCT
WDADU

god damn...

[Kotowboy]

I loved it from the start and routinely listened from start to finish at a nice loud volume in my house on my own

I definitely preferred it so SC but now I think that bar the last two tracks, it suffers similar problems.

BC&SL definitely has better production than SC though.

[iamtheeviltwin]

I like most of the tracks on the album, despite their flaws.  However, it says something when I pull out the cover disk and the instrumental disk more often than the actual album.

[Ħ]

A Nightmare to Remember - A cool song to put on every once in a while. Suffers horribly from everything after the Beautiful Agony section. The intro is one of DT's best.

A Rite of Passage - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.

Wither - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.

The Shattered Fortress - Musically the best on BC&SL, but lyrically it could be the worst in DT's entire catalog. I'll still play it every once in a while though...it's a great workout song.

The Best of Times - Underrated for sure. But I feel I'd love this song even more if the chorus wasn't so bland and repetitive, and if the song was just a little bit shorter. It's not horrible though.

The Count of Tuscany - This went from being a top 3 song to not even being on the radar. The intro is great but kind of generic DT, the outro is wonderful, but everything in between is pretty lame. I seldom listen to it.

On the covers disc, the Queen song is the only one I really listen to. James does a fantastic job and I seriously think that if it wasn't for his  whiny-ish tone, he'd be as great as Freddy. Mike's parts in Flick of the Wrist aren't that great though. But overall, it's a better production than the original recording.

I never touch the instrumental disc, and I haven't even taken the stems out of their packaging.

[HBob97]

I love BC&SL. I find it just doesn't get boring one bit. I think it's a strong album and it has my favourite guitar solo of all time on it (The Best Of Times) I'm constantly listening to it, it's just an amazing album. Sometimes the lyrics aren't the best, but tbh the music makes up for that.

[Tis BOOLsheet]

A Nightmare to Remember - A cool song to put on every once in a while. Suffers horribly from everything after the Beautiful Agony section. The intro is one of DT's best.

A Rite of Passage - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.

Wither - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.

The Shattered Fortress - Musically the best on BC&SL, but lyrically it could be the worst in DT's entire catalog. I'll still play it every once in a while though...it's a great workout song.

The Best of Times - Underrated for sure. But I feel I'd love this song even more if the chorus wasn't so bland and repetitive, and if the song was just a little bit shorter. It's not horrible though.

The Count of Tuscany - This went from being a top 3 song to not even being on the radar. The intro is great but kind of generic DT, the outro is wonderful, but everything in between is pretty lame. I seldom listen to it.

On the covers disc, the Queen song is the only one I really listen to. James does a fantastic job and I seriously think that if it wasn't for his  whiny-ish tone, he'd be as great as Freddy. Mike's parts in Flick of the Wrist aren't that great though. But overall, it's a better production than the original recording.

I never touch the instrumental disc, and I haven't even taken the stems out of their packaging.

LMFAO. I was actually almost entirely on board until you came up with that.

[darkshade]

The only problem I ever really had with BC&SL, was the fact that most of the vocal melodies went along with the guitar riffs. Maybe it was intentional, I dont know, probably not, as JLB wasn't there for the writing sessions (not his fault that time).

[hefdaddy42]

I like BC&SL, but I prefer the covers disc.

[Stebaaan]

At first I LOVED the album. It was the first album that came out once I became a fan around 2008. So it was basically a feeling of once it came out I couldn't help but love it.

Now that that feeling is gone, I only really LOVE ANTR and TCOT. I really like AROP, and the last three don't really do anything for me anymore. I barely even listen to it anymore.

[darkshade]

I found that omitting A Rite Of Passage from the track listing, makes the album flow so much better

[Zook]

I found that not listening to the album makes it flow better too.

[bosk1]

A Nightmare to Remember - A cool song to put on every once in a while. Suffers horribly from everything after the Beautiful Agony section. The intro is one of DT's best.

A Rite of Passage - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.

Wither - Can't ever see myself listening to this ever again.

The Shattered Fortress - Musically the best on BC&SL, but lyrically it could be the worst in DT's entire catalog. I'll still play it every once in a while though...it's a great workout song.

The Best of Times - Underrated for sure. But I feel I'd love this song even more if the chorus wasn't so bland and repetitive, and if the song was just a little bit shorter. It's not horrible though.

The Count of Tuscany - This went from being a top 3 song to not even being on the radar. The intro is great but kind of generic DT, the outro is wonderful, but everything in between is pretty lame. I seldom listen to it.

On the covers disc, the Queen song is the only one I really listen to. James does a fantastic job and I seriously think that if it wasn't for his  whiny-ish tone, he'd be as great as Freddy. Mike's parts in Flick of the Wrist aren't that great though. But overall, it's a better production than the original recording.

I never touch the instrumental disc, and I haven't even taken the stems out of their packaging.

I may have already done this in this thread, but what the heck.  I'll play again...

A Nightmare To Remember:  One of the best songs DT have done in their entire career.  Other than "Raaaaaawwwwwwwwrrrrrrrrrrr!!!!!!!!!!!!!," this song is flawless.

A Right Of Passage:  The song has a lot of coolness going on, but is also pretty straighforward for DT.  As far as the metal side of DT, it feels very "by the numbers" and formuliac.  Still, good song.

Wither:  It's easy to forget just how good this song is unless you take time to crank the volume and really listen.  It doesn't do anything earth shattering, but it's solid.

The Shattered Fortress:  Great, great song.  They literally took the best of the 12SS, put some new twists and turns in, and smashed it all up into one package.  The only problem is, it just feels too long and feels like it tries to do too much.  I can appreciate what Mike was trying to do here, but I think it would have been better if it was scaled back a bit.

The Best Of Times:  A lot of nice things going on, but the song does not connect with me emotionally whatsoever.  Given that and the length, I never have a desire to listen to it and will more often than not skip it altogether.  If AROP is metal DT by numbers, this feels like prog rock DT by numbers.

The Count Of Tuscany:  Lots of awesome going on, but to this day, while the middle volume swell section is nice, it feels SO out of place and distracting that it kills the song for me.  It would have been great as an intro, but I feel like the band felt like they couldn't still that part in the beginning or else fans would think the song was trying to be Octavarium II.  And that's a fair point.  But the song still would have flowed better.  And if it seems like I'm spending a lot of time on this point, it's because I feel the song was 90% on its way to being stellar, and then took and abrupt left turn and drove off a cliff, so it is frustrating.  But other than that, the music is great, the lyrics are great, the story is great.  Me likey.

Very good album.  The biggest flaw as a whole is that the songs are almost all so long that if you don't like a song or two, it kills off a big chunk of time.  Covers disk is a nice addition too.

[m0hawk]

A Nightmare To Remember - One of the best intros DT has ever done. Oozes so much malice. The best "Dark" DT intro. Beautiful Agony is just incredible. Love that section! Too bad DEY-AFTER-DEY and too much repetition kills the 2nd half of the song. Would have cracked top 10 if they cut all the fat

A Rite of Passage - Least favourite DT song since their FII days. Ugh.

Wither - By itself, this song is a really good ballad. But in the context of the album, it doesn't do anything to help it.

The Shattered Fortress - Really underrated rocker, this one! Everything is just kick-ass with the exception of the keyboard solo. WHICH. GOES. ON. FOR. FAR. TOO. LONG. Nice TGP intro reprise at the very end

The Best of Times - The most outright cheesy DT song. And I love every single minute of it. It stands alone in the DT discography for being so bittersweet, musically. Also, DAT SOLO!

The Count of Tuscany - The 2nd best DT song (right after Octavarium). It's funny how ANTR has the Beautiful Agony section (the Silver Lining amongst the Black Clouds) and TCOT has the dark 2nd quarter (the Black Cloud amongst the Silver Lining....wait, that metaphor doesn't make complete sense), serving as a sort of Yin and Yang for each other. Anyway, you have that blissful, stellar intro. It's probably one of the most universally-loved sections in their discography. No qualms about that whatsoever. Then it slowly and ever so tenderly transforms into that dark passage, beginning with DAT MELODY that marks the transition into murkiness. Love the verses until "DOWN THE CELLAR STAIRS", where the lyrics turn absolutely abysmal. Nothing wrong with the music, but the lyrics are just horrendous. Ugh. How the hell did JP pen "ALL THE FINEST WINES. IMPROVE WITH AGE" After that, the short instrumental section that succeeds that section culminates with one of the best JP solo section. Not necessarily the actual guitar solo itself (it is a very simple one), but the combination of JP's solo and JR's keys. Not enough recognition is given to this section. This is the darkest moment of all the DT epics, and one of their best moments. Then we have that ambient section, which is possibly DT's most beautiful section. I need not describe it to you. And finally, we have DAT OUTRO. Rousing, emotional and majestic. Everything one could want in a DT ending! From the touching "Could this be the end", to JP's solo reprisal, to that final keyboard melody, you just feel at peace with the world. Or at least, that's how I feel. An incredible feat by an incredible band 

[Zook]

I'm in between It's OK and Never Enough. I'm also in the minority that thinks SC is better. Really, BCSL has two good songs. TSF and TCOT, and listening to those two tonight in the car, I wasn't feeling them like I used to. TCOT still has an amazing intro and outro, but that cream filling doesn't excite me anymore. Think Oreos, you perverts! Those two songs are still good, but really, I'd rather listen to something else of theirs.

A Nightmare To Remember - it has some cool moments, but I just don't give a shit about it anymore. I've tried editing out the stuff I don't like, but then the song just sounds off. Beautiful Agony isn't as beautiful as it used to be, the solo section is pants (love that phrase) and everything after it is just fodder.

A Rite Of Passage - Boring as fuck. BORING.

Wither - Not bad, but another "I don't care enough to listen" song. Plus, that Brian May solo just about kills the song for me.

The Shattered Fortress - I'm in the minority that loves the keyboard solo, but the song loses a lot of steam after it. Portnoy's goofy tough guy vocals don't help, but the first half of the song is pretty awesome.

The Best Of Times - Meh. This song does absolutely nothing for me.

The Count Of Tuscany - I never minded the lyrics. They're fun to sing along to, but as I said before, the song in general doesn't tickle my fancy like it used to. If I never got to see it live, it wouldn't kill me.

Black Clouds & Silver Linings has not aged well for me at all. Systematic Chaos, while still being full of flaws, and not the best them, is still way better than BCSL. I'll give it a 4/10 and I think I'm being generous. Falling Into Infinity is also better than this album, as is WDADU. ADTOE was quite the improvement, and a glorious return to form.

[BlobVanDam]

ANTR - Definitely top 20 for me. One of their most amazing metal songs, with a fantastic halloween type atmosphere, great riffs, and JR integrating something unique that really elevates the song, rather than just doubling the guitars. And of course that mid section. I have nothing against the solo section or the MP verse. My only problem with the song is that the last few lines of the lyrics of MP's section don't fit the vocal delivery, but that's relatively minor in the grand scheme of things. A triumph for DT's metal side.

AROP - A great more straightforward metal track. Interesting vocals, and a catchy chorus with nice harmonies. The solo section does feel a bit cut and paste, and Bebot is a bit silly, but overall I think it's a cool song.

Wither - A solid metal "ballad". Nothing extraordinary, but a good little song nonetheless. And a killer solo by JP that is underrated for showing the restraint on BCASL.

TSF - A bit of a frustrating song. It's largely a medley of old material, with not a lot of entirely new stuff. Some of the reprisals are very well done, and create a new twist on the old stuff, but some of it just feels like it's there just because it's there. Some of the transitions are among DT's most awkward too. The entire outro section kicks ass though. It works well enough when listening to the entire 12SS (seriously, do it), but as a standalone, it feels very redundant.

TBOT - A beautiful intro, but I'm not too crazy about the major key verses. Most of the minor key stuff is quite good though, and that outro solo is one of JP's best ever. I think if the song was trimmed down, it could have been a much stronger track, but there are a few significant sections dragging it down for me. I applaud DT for writing such a long song that shows such restraint though.

TCOT - The verse melodies are a bit weak, simply doubling the chord progression, and the pre-chorus vocal shouting feels a bit lazy. Aside from that, this is one of DT's best songs ever. The opening instrumental section is one of the most incredible pieces of music DT has ever written, and everything from the guitar swell section onwards is stellar. The song is a mixture of ridiculously amazing and average.

[darkshade]

I found that not listening to the album makes it flow better too.

Not listening to Dream Theater can cause health issues down the road.

[Kotowboy]

I still think it's great. Aside from TBOT and TSF, which I've never been all that into, I can still listen to any of the rest any time. ANTR still sounds as fresh and energetic as ever, and the instrumental intro of TCOT still slays me every time. Some of the best instrumental work they've ever done hands down.

I think BCASL's biggest weakness is just the long songs. If you don't like a couple of tracks, it's a relatively big chunk of the album gone. Not as much of a problem to not like a couple of tracks when the album has 10+ tracks.

Exactly my feeling.

I'd much rather have ten 7 minute songs on an album than seven 10 minute songs.

As you say - If two of those seven songs don't appeal to you - you're left with five songs to choose from and you get bored of the album quicker.

I was a bit disappointed when I read that BC&SL was only six tracks but was somewhat relieved with ADTOE having 9.

[wolfandwolfandwolf]

I like BC&SL, but I prefer the covers disc.

Stargazer is really, really awesome.

[Cruithne]

BC&SL was the first DT album that I didn't listen to at least a dozen times on purchase.

I skip ANTR because of the RAWR section, which is a shame because the intro is majestic and had DT had something like the Queen rule of recording (the songwriter has final say...) I think there's a good chance it would've ended up as one of my favourite songs. As it is... grr...
I skip Wither 'cos I find it dull and lifeless.
I skip A Shattered Fortress because of MP's vocal contributions. I could probably live with the KINDNESS/COURTESY stuff but for the spoken word section part way through that kills the song stone dead for me.
I skip TCoT because of the lyrics.

Which leaves two songs, one of which is a fairly stock contribution, A Rite Of Passage, and the other, The Best Of Times, which I enjoy as long as I don't pay close attention to the lyrics.

Unlike SC and ToT, which I did enjoy on release but which didn't stand the test of time, I thought very little of BC&SL straight away.

[ZKX-2099]

I may have already said this, but for JP solos, this album is best.

[Ryzee]

I kind of like this album, I don't think it's as bad as most people do.  I think I usually rank it somewhere in the middle of the pack.  I think it's a bit better than 8VM, WDADU, TOT & SC.  Guess I'll do the song by song analysis thing?


ANTR- My opinion of this is actually the same as most of you guys.   Great tune up until the solo section.  Beautiful Agony section is one of the best things they've ever done, I do dig the solo section even though it does go on a bit long, and everything after that gets pretty repetitive. 


AROP- Boring, always thought it was boring.  The chorus is a pretty cool guy I guess.


Wither-  I really like this tune, I'm surprised by all the negativity I've been reading about it.  Great little ballad, probably the best complete tune on the album.


Shattered Fortress- I like this tune too.  Everyone always complains that it's just a mash up of other riffs from the 12ss but wasn't that kind of the point?  It was the finale of the suite.  I like the keyboard solo too.  A lot.  It does go on a bit long though.


Best of Times- Doesn't do much for me.  The piano/acoustic guitar intro is nice, and the outro solo is cool, but overall I've never really gone crazy over this tune.


TCOT-  Awesome tune, instant DT classic.  Intro is amazing, verses and choruses are kind of bland but tolerable, everything from the ambient section onward is amazing.  I'm also surprised by the negativity toward the ambient section.  Aside from the initial acoustic guitar intro passage it's probably my favorite part of the song.  I'm weird I guess.

[?]

BC&SL was my first DT album and after hearing all their albums it was still #4 or #5 on my list but since then it has descended to the 9th position.

ANTR - A very good song although having shorter solo sections wouldn't have made it any worse. I don't have a problem with MP's vocals, it's the lyrics in that part that don't fit: "EVERYONE SURVIVED, ROOOOAAAARRR!!!"

AROP - Catchy metal song but gets old pretty fast and the solo section feels like it's there just to make the song longer and more complex

Wither - OK ballad, nice to listen to, but compared to some other DT ballads like Through Her Eyes, Beneath the Surface and Vacant that are highly emotional this is pretty bland.

TSF - Relies too much on recycling old riffs instead of creating something new and just like in ANTR, the lyrics MP is shouting don't fit his delivery: "FREEDOM! SERENITY! HAPPINESS!"

TBOT - Meh, I feel this kind of song doesn't deserve the length of 13 minutes, it's just way too long. The lyrics are also too personal to identify with.

TCOT - The second highlight of the album. However, it has the same problem as ANTR and TSF - MP is doing his "tough guy" vocals on lyrics that aren't metal at all: "ALL THE FINEST WINES IMPROVE WITH AGE!" Apart from that it's a very nice song and I find the ambient section better than the boring intro to Octavarium.