Is DT missing an opportunity to cash in....

[TAC]

I've thought about it quite a bit and have come to the conclusion that he was given a wonderful gift by being able to join DT. Presumably he made a decent living for several years and significantly elevated his stature during his time with the band.

Oh absolutely. No question.

The other thing is; I don't think he ever felt like an equal partner and though he may not have called much attention to it, I think it bothered him. And I don't think that aspect would have ever changed regardless of how much longer he was with the band.

I think this is on point.

[gzarruk]

After reading the official announcement, that's the impression I got as well. It reads something like "MP, our long lost brother who we love so much" and "MM was a great colleague".

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I've thought about it quite a bit and have come to the conclusion that he was given a wonderful gift by being able to join DT. Presumably he made a decent living for several years and significantly elevated his stature during his time with the band. The other thing is; I don't think he ever felt like an equal partner and though he may not have called much attention to it, I think it bothered him. And I don't think that aspect would have ever changed regardless of how much longer he was with the band.

I wouldn't call it a 'gift.' It was a job audition. He crushed it and he got the job. Both sides had a lot to gain at the time and they entered into a business agreement for Mike to be the drummer. DT did what they felt was right for them - so did MM. It wasn't an act of generosity.

You're right: it appears he was never on equal footing with some members. It isn't surprising as the newest member but alas he was not what MP was in this. I can't recall the interview but in the last couple years or so he was asked something like 'how come it took so long for you to be able to contribute X?' (paraphrasing here) and he just said 'I don't know.' He also gave some analogy about not just waltzing into someone's house and opening the refrigerator. He had a role to fill and whatever it was, clearly it was not the role MP had. So sayeth Mangini himself.

[hefdaddy42]

I'll be honest, while he may never have felt on an equal footing or fully accepted, I think that some of that was self-imposed, not dictated by the rest of the band.

[Samsara]

I'll be honest, while he may never have felt on an equal footing or fully accepted, I think that some of that was self-imposed, not dictated by the rest of the band.

Well, it probably was dictated by the rest of the band if MM wasn't a part-owner of Dream Theater. That's why I say it's probably more likely than not that MM was an employee on the business side, whereas JP, JM, JLB, and likely JR, are all part owners. When you're an employee of something, working with the owners of that something, you're never going to feel like you're on equal footing -- because you're not.

Again, this is assuming I'm right in how they have their business stuff structured.

MP was one of the founders of DT and an architect of the band's sound and overall reputation. Hard act to follow. Much harder than when MM followed Paul Geary in Extreme back in the 90s.

I am sure it's still pretty raw for MM (regardless of what he says publicly), but in time, I think his era in the band will be celebrated pretty highly. He won a GRAMMY as a part of Dream Theater. Those are his drum tracks that were a part of that -- not MP's. And that's something, along with his entire run, that MM can be proud of, and should be.

[Mosh]

His place in the band was probably self imposed to some degree, but I have long thought that his selection in the first place was partially because they knew he wouldn’t try to rock the boat.

I definitely remember wondering with each new album if this would be the one where Mangini finally makes his mark as a creative voice. Other than a (imo very weak) lyrical contribution, I don’t know if we ever got that “Mangini unleashed” that was hyped in some promotional cycles.

Don’t get me wrong though, his playing was great and I appreciate what he brought to the band.

[cramx3]

Likely a bit of both.  He probably understood his spot in the band and didn't try to go beyond that unless asked, which apparently he never was asked.  I don't really see a problem with that though, I think a lot of us in a similar situation in our jobs wouldn't try to push our bosses too much.  You form in line and do your job, MM has been very good at doing his job.

[Deathless]

I'll be honest, while he may never have felt on an equal footing or fully accepted, I think that some of that was self-imposed, not dictated by the rest of the band.

Well, it probably was dictated by the rest of the band if MM wasn't a part-owner of Dream Theater. That's why I say it's probably more likely than not that MM was an employee on the business side, whereas JP, JM, JLB, and likely JR, are all part owners. When you're an employee of something, working with the owners of that something, you're never going to feel like you're on equal footing -- because you're not.

Again, this is assuming I'm right in how they have their business stuff structured.

MP was one of the founders of DT and an architect of the band's sound and overall reputation. Hard act to follow. Much harder than when MM followed Paul Geary in Extreme back in the 90s.

I am sure it's still pretty raw for MM (regardless of what he says publicly), but in time, I think his era in the band will be celebrated pretty highly. He won a GRAMMY as a part of Dream Theater. Those are his drum tracks that were a part of that -- not MP's. And that's something, along with his entire run, that MM can be proud of, and should be.

I am guessing they have multiple companies, but he wasn't listed as an owner/director on the ytsejam, inc. company that's been active since '88 in NY. I am really curious if MP is going to be re-integrated in the ownership/management structure or if they are going to just keep him as an employee. I would suspect the latter but you never know, maybe they want him back in to finish the band etc.

[Samsara]

I am really curious if MP is going to be re-integrated in the ownership/management structure or if they are going to just keep him as an employee. I would suspect the latter but you never know, maybe they want him back in to finish the band etc.

Just my .02, but I don't think MP would ever return to Dream Theater without the band restoring him to ownership. My feeling is, MP is back as an owner of the band/brand, etc., etc. It'd be stupid for MP to just go back and be an employee. He's a founding member of the band. And I don't think DT would try to do that anyway. My feeling is, MP is just as much an owner of DT now as he was before he left.

[gzarruk]

This is obviously a completely different case than with MP-DT, but Paulo Baron (Angra's manager) confirmed that Kiko Loureiro is still part of the Angra's management, despite being out of the band for a while now since he joined Megadeth. I always found interesting how some band members might be completely out of the recording/touring band, yet they're more important/in higher hierarchy in the business side of things vs others who are just employees, yet we see them as part of "the" band.

[Mosh]

Knowing Portnoy’s public persona, I can’t imagine him coming back to DT as an employee. I can even see him being insulted by that prospect. The power structure may have changed some (Petrucci probably has veto powers now), but I can’t see Portnoy returning to a band he founded (and as he often reminds us, his father named) as an employee.

Are James and Jordan owners? Anyone know their role in the band’s business?

[The Great Ape]

I don't think I've seen this suggested, but what if they went in and banged out a CD of 8 classic prog and metal covers and toured that with some DT classics for 6 weeks; working on new music during sound checks and stuff?

La Villa Strangiatto
a Yes epic
a Genesis epic
a Metallica song like Ktulu or Frayed Ends of Sanity
a Megadeth classic like Holy Wars or Hangar 18 or Tornado of Souls
a Sabbath classic
a Maiden tune with doable vocals like Revelations or Alexander the Great or Paschendale
whatever else

I'd go to that freakin show.

This would not be a dream come true... it would be a NIGHTMARE

[Samsara]

This is obviously a completely different case than with MP-DT, but Paulo Baron (Angra's manager) confirmed that Kiko Loureiro is still part of the Angra's management, despite being out of the band for a while now since he joined Megadeth. I always found interesting how some band members might be completely out of the recording/touring band, yet they're more important/in higher hierarchy in the business side of things vs others who are just employees, yet we see them as part of "the" band.

Yep. Another couple notables;

Steve Perry is still an owner of Journey.

Sebastian Bach still has a corporate vote in the affairs of Skid Row (he just always gets outvoted by Rachel Bolan and Snake Sabo).

Those dudes theoretically still get a percentage of net revenues, even if they aren't performing/writing/creating.

But as Mosh said, and I agree, I can't imagine MP ever rejoining Dream Theater as an employee. I think it's pretty obvious MP is back in ownership/management structure.

Are James and Jordan owners? Anyone know their role in the band’s business?

No idea. It really differs depending on the band how things are structured. You can do almost anything. And a lot of the legacy acts, at least back when they formed, only have rudimentary agreements. I am sure, after all this time, and members, Dream Theater has their business agreements and corporate structure well done and very clear.

If I was a betting man, I'd say all of them have a piece of it now, with the rejoining of MP. Not sure if it is a five-way split of 20 percent each, but I am guessing all of them have a percentage.

[ytserush]

I'd like to see them do what Rush did for the Time Machine tour.  Release a couple of new songs in late Spring and perform them during a short warm-up tour.  Then do the full-on world tour for the album after its release in Fall 2024.  That way, we wouldn't have to wait almost a year to hear at least some of the new material.

Consistent with the "What Would Rush Do?" model.

[ytserush]

I guess the fact that they're not doing that would point to Portnoy's return not being a financial move.

That's an interesting observation. I feel like DT World has been kind of quiet since the announcement. No doubt MP will be good for business on their next tour, but this was always about bring MP back into the band than it was about dollars to me.

I still think the timing was less than ideal and was likely triggered by unknown (as yet to us) untended consequences.

[ytserush]

But yeah, I'm pretty sure MM knew about it at least a few weeks before the announcement was made. All you need to see is Rodrigo's interview with MM and how he choked up when the topic of DT was brought up.

The lawyers on DTF would like to have you believe he was burping.

It is my belief that he was told within a day or days of Rodrigo's interview. That was 30 days give or take from the announcement.

Without evidence I think he knew even before that. When did Mike announce his solo album?

[TAC]

But yeah, I'm pretty sure MM knew about it at least a few weeks before the announcement was made. All you need to see is Rodrigo's interview with MM and how he choked up when the topic of DT was brought up.

The lawyers on DTF would like to have you believe he was burping.

It is my belief that he was told within a day or days of Rodrigo's interview. That was 30 days give or take from the announcement.

Without evidence I think he knew even before that. When did Mike announce his solo album?

Are you asking when did he say that he was making a solo album, or when did the major press  announcement happen?

[ytserush]

Stuff like that is why I hope Petrucci doesn't concede the set list stuff back totally to Portnoy.  Portnoy overthinks things way too much IMO and gets way too caught up in checking songs off bucket lists (playing You Not Me/You Or Me just so they can say they played it, when it is quite obviously one of their least popular songs ever, if not THE least popular DT song ever, would be the biggest WTF ever), and that sometimes causes those kinds of WTF decisions, like the underwhelming Score set list, which is not a good reflection of their 20 years at their 20th anniversary show.

"Underwhelming"  is not a word I would associate with the Score set and the Octavarium sets in general. It's one of the reasons why it's among my favorite tours.  I think it's very representative up to that point. Not sure if it's ever been topped. Six Degrees was quite an amazing tour too. Those might just be my two favorites. But then The Astonishing Tour set (before they caved) might just be up there too.

[MirrorMask]

This is obviously a completely different case than with MP-DT, but Paulo Baron (Angra's manager) confirmed that Kiko Loureiro is still part of the Angra's management, despite being out of the band for a while now since he joined Megadeth. I always found interesting how some band members might be completely out of the recording/touring band, yet they're more important/in higher hierarchy in the business side of things vs others who are just employees, yet we see them as part of "the" band.

Yep. Another couple notables;

Steve Perry is still an owner of Journey.

Sebastian Bach still has a corporate vote in the affairs of Skid Row (he just always gets outvoted by Rachel Bolan and Snake Sabo).

Those dudes theoretically still get a percentage of net revenues, even if they aren't performing/writing/creating.

But as Mosh said, and I agree, I can't imagine MP ever rejoining Dream Theater as an employee. I think it's pretty obvious MP is back in ownership/management structure.

Also the original Nightwish drummer left like a decade ago for insomnia issues, but I believe he's still the "accountant" and he's still in charge of the finances of the band.

This all goes back to the example made by.... cramx I believe, how the perception of the public and the legal structure of a band are two different things. I don't consider Kiko Louriero "in" Angra, but he is. I considered Mike Mangini a full member of DT because he was in all the photos of the booklet and his name and role were stated on equal "billing" as the other four guys. I don't consider the bass player of Blind Guardian a member of the band because he's never in the promotional photos of the band. Heck, Geoff Nicholls (keyboard player and off-stage man) was probably never considered by 99% of the fans a member of Black Sabbath and he was on more albums than Ozzy.

[ytserush]

I don't believe anyone in the band, except perhaps JP knew what was coming. And that's not to say that JP had made THE decision yet. I'd honestly be surprised if he dared to broach it with anyone while on tour.

I'm speculating, but I think most or all of them already knew at some point during the tour.  It may not have been finalized in terms of signing documents, etc., but I think it is likely that the plan was in place and they knew about it.

AND it takes time to draw up and sign said documents.

[ytserush]

These things take planning. My complete guess is that they (JP, JM, JLB, JR) all met and decided quite a while back what they were going to do. "Getting MP back" likely required a lot of behind the scenes work. I can't imagine MP rejoining Dream Theater as an employee. When he left the first time, it likely meant he was separated from the band's corporate structure, meaning he was likely paid a significant amount of money (his ownership stake), and if so, I'd imagine the band re-drew the corporate charter to define who the "owners" of Dream Theater were. I am GUESSING that is the major four, and MM was an employee.

Either way, to bring MP back, specifically, to bring him back in an ownership role (assuming the percentage he owned when he left), requires more than a simple "we want you back in, MP, are you in?" "Yes!" scenario. It probably took months of preparation.

In a nutshell, it's my belief that everyone except MM knew what was going on for quite a bit of time, and MM was informed once they all had agreed and things were signed.

All guesswork, but the business end of things takes a lot of time. That much is fact.

p.s. I think DT will probably tour this summer. Escape from the Studio 2024.

Without knowing, that would be my assessment. They needed to get it right this time.

[ytserush]

I'll be honest, while he may never have felt on an equal footing or fully accepted, I think that some of that was self-imposed, not dictated by the rest of the band.

Entirely possible. Maybe not having that bigger role began to cause some friction.

[ytserush]

But yeah, I'm pretty sure MM knew about it at least a few weeks before the announcement was made. All you need to see is Rodrigo's interview with MM and how he choked up when the topic of DT was brought up.

The lawyers on DTF would like to have you believe he was burping.

It is my belief that he was told within a day or days of Rodrigo's interview. That was 30 days give or take from the announcement.

Without evidence I think he knew even before that. When did Mike announce his solo album?

Are you asking when did he say that he was making a solo album, or when did the major press  announcement happen?

When did he announce his solo album?

[TAC]

But yeah, I'm pretty sure MM knew about it at least a few weeks before the announcement was made. All you need to see is Rodrigo's interview with MM and how he choked up when the topic of DT was brought up.

The lawyers on DTF would like to have you believe he was burping.

It is my belief that he was told within a day or days of Rodrigo's interview. That was 30 days give or take from the announcement.

Without evidence I think he knew even before that. When did Mike announce his solo album?

Are you asking when did he say that he was making a solo album, or when did the major press  announcement happen?

When did he announce his solo album?

October 25

https://bravewords.com/news/dream-theater-announce-the-return-of-drummer-mike-portnoy

October 26

https://bravewords.com/news/former-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-reveals-release-date-tracklisting-for-debut-solo-album

[ytserush]

But yeah, I'm pretty sure MM knew about it at least a few weeks before the announcement was made. All you need to see is Rodrigo's interview with MM and how he choked up when the topic of DT was brought up.

The lawyers on DTF would like to have you believe he was burping.

It is my belief that he was told within a day or days of Rodrigo's interview. That was 30 days give or take from the announcement.

Without evidence I think he knew even before that. When did Mike announce his solo album?

Are you asking when did he say that he was making a solo album, or when did the major press  announcement happen?

When did he announce his solo album?

October 25

https://bravewords.com/news/dream-theater-announce-the-return-of-drummer-mike-portnoy

October 26

https://bravewords.com/news/former-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-reveals-release-date-tracklisting-for-debut-solo-album

He didn't announce he was working on a solo album before that? Perhaps I'm hallucinating again.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

But yeah, I'm pretty sure MM knew about it at least a few weeks before the announcement was made. All you need to see is Rodrigo's interview with MM and how he choked up when the topic of DT was brought up.

The lawyers on DTF would like to have you believe he was burping.

It is my belief that he was told within a day or days of Rodrigo's interview. That was 30 days give or take from the announcement.

Without evidence I think he knew even before that. When did Mike announce his solo album?

Are you asking when did he say that he was making a solo album, or when did the major press  announcement happen?

When did he announce his solo album?

October 25

https://bravewords.com/news/dream-theater-announce-the-return-of-drummer-mike-portnoy

October 26

https://bravewords.com/news/former-dream-theater-drummer-mike-mangini-reveals-release-date-tracklisting-for-debut-solo-album

He didn't announce he was working on a solo album before that? Perhaps I'm hallucinating again.

He did. He announced work on a solo project even in mid September (possibly earlier).

[TAC]

He's been talking about his solo album for most of the year actually. I meant his major press release came out a day after DT's announcement.

[Awaken]

This is obviously a completely different case than with MP-DT, but Paulo Baron (Angra's manager) confirmed that Kiko Loureiro is still part of the Angra's management, despite being out of the band for a while now since he joined Megadeth. I always found interesting how some band members might be completely out of the recording/touring band, yet they're more important/in higher hierarchy in the business side of things vs others who are just employees, yet we see them as part of "the" band.

Yep. Another couple notables;

Steve Perry is still an owner of Journey.

Sebastian Bach still has a corporate vote in the affairs of Skid Row (he just always gets outvoted by Rachel Bolan and Snake Sabo).

Those dudes theoretically still get a percentage of net revenues, even if they aren't performing/writing/creating.

But as Mosh said, and I agree, I can't imagine MP ever rejoining Dream Theater as an employee. I think it's pretty obvious MP is back in ownership/management structure.

Are James and Jordan owners? Anyone know their role in the band’s business?

No idea. It really differs depending on the band how things are structured. You can do almost anything. And a lot of the legacy acts, at least back when they formed, only have rudimentary agreements. I am sure, after all this time, and members, Dream Theater has their business agreements and corporate structure well done and very clear.

If I was a betting man, I'd say all of them have a piece of it now, with the rejoining of MP. Not sure if it is a five-way split of 20 percent each, but I am guessing all of them have a percentage.

This is an extremely interesting discussion to me, I've always wondered about the financial aspect of bands and how they're structured. 

With the examples you (and others) provided, there are instances where past/founding members retain 'ownership' even after leaving said band.  I've read multiple assumptions that MP must be returning to an 'ownership' role vs. employee of the organization/corportation/etc. 

My question, and again - I'm green with this topic (and while I'm a FAN of DT, I am not a FANATIC who pays attention to each minute detail of the band) - has there ever been confirmation that MP was stripped of an owner role (or gave it up) when he left the band?  Seems like there is precedent set in multiple examples where a founding member leaves and retains the role, just wondering if it was ever made public that MP gave up his share(s).  If not, there is not a change necessary in his ownership role on returning, right?

[Stadler]

I don't know for a fact, but I do know a lawsuit was filed - and the fanbase went up in arms, how dare he!, when in fact it's often a formality to trigger certain other options under the corporate operating agreement, including liquidating a member - and that suggests that at least the discussions were had.   

Members (owners) of corporations often remain, though, to continue to received royalties or other payments to which they are entitled.  I'd be kind of surprised if he was bought out entirely, but I have nothing on which to base any presumption either way.

[hefdaddy42]

He's been talking about his solo album for most of the year actually. I meant his major press release came out a day after DT's announcement.

He was talking about working on it for a LONG time.  I mean a LONG time.  Feels like a couple of years, although I may be off on that.

[gzarruk]

He's been talking about his solo album for most of the year actually. I meant his major press release came out a day after DT's announcement.

He was talking about working on it for a LONG time.  I mean a LONG time.  Feels like a couple of years, although I may be off on that.

Yeah, it was in the works for a few years. It's not like DT got MP back and MM decided to write and record a full album in just a couple weeks/months

[Awaken]

I don't know for a fact, but I do know a lawsuit was filed - and the fanbase went up in arms, how dare he!, when in fact it's often a formality to trigger certain other options under the corporate operating agreement, including liquidating a member - and that suggests that at least the discussions were had.   

Members (owners) of corporations often remain, though, to continue to received royalties or other payments to which they are entitled.  I'd be kind of surprised if he was bought out entirely, but I have nothing on which to base any presumption either way.

I remember that day well, pretty sure it was on mp's old forum there were actual court docs posted and people went off. 

Thanks for the info, like I mentioned this aspect is rarely spoken about in public and I'm sure varies wildly based on the band/scenarios.  I have so many questions on how it all works, would love a doc series that covers all of this a bit more (not just for DT).

[gzarruk]

IIRC I think I read here in DTF at some point (it might have been pg who posted) that what Mike filed wasn't really a lawsuit but that the way these things work in NY it read kind of like a lawsuit. Not sure if what I said makes sense or not, I just vaguely remember reading it at some point

[MoraWintersoul]

The longer they were planning it, the worse they'll look in front of Mangini, so I don't think they'll ever give us a proper timeline of how it came to be. Unless it was decided after the Dreamsonic tour, like seriously decided and considered, I don't expect them to admit they were in serious talks for long.

I think Mike knew that MP was knocking on the door for a number of years. I'm not sure how seriously in jeopardy his spot in the band really was though.

I don't think his job was in jeopardy until well after the JP/MP tour, which is the first time I may consider JP and MP felt a little twinkle of reunion, despite what JP said to the press ahead of the tour. Maybe MP would have sat the guys down after all of that and getting on good terms with JLB and said "okay, so what will it take to do the 40th anniversary and the rest of our careers together as a band?" And DT looked at the rest of the year and their plans to enter the studio, and said, well shit, if this is going to happen, we have less time than the countdown to the 40th anniversary.

[Mosh]

The longer they were planning it, the worse they'll look in front of Mangini, so I don't think they'll ever give us a proper timeline of how it came to be. Unless it was decided after the Dreamsonic tour, like seriously decided and considered, I don't expect them to admit they were in serious talks for long.

I think Mike knew that MP was knocking on the door for a number of years. I'm not sure how seriously in jeopardy his spot in the band really was though.

I don't think his job was in jeopardy until well after the JP/MP tour, which is the first time I may consider JP and MP felt a little twinkle of reunion, despite what JP said to the press ahead of the tour. Maybe MP would have sat the guys down after all of that and getting on good terms with JLB and said "okay, so what will it take to do the 40th anniversary and the rest of our careers together as a band?" And DT looked at the rest of the year and their plans to enter the studio, and said, well shit, if this is going to happen, we have less time than the countdown to the 40th anniversary.

This seems really plausible, but a really big part of me also feels like this decision had to have been discussed thoroughly among the 4 DT guys and everybody 100% on board before MP was even part of the discussion. It doesn't seem out of character for him to be that forward about suggesting a reunion, but I also think (and MP probably knew this) that a reunion was more likely if he shut up about it and let the rest of the band get there gradually on their terms.

But who knows, maybe Portnoy was calling them every year for the last decade asking if he could rejoin Dream Theater.