Atheism Saved My Life

[TheVoxyn]

Just trying to get on the level of BrotherH's anology. It's quite hard.

[Bombardana]

                     ~God is real~                 ~God isn't real~


~Believe~          yay Heaven                     blackness/nothing


~Don't Believe~    Hell                              blackness/nothng




So at the very best, you're going to wind up just as well as the folks that didn't let go of God.  And at the worst, you're going to Hell.  That's why Atheism is silly.

Oh wow.

[Jamesman42]

                     ~God is real~                 ~God isn't real~


~Believe~          yay Heaven                     blackness/nothing


~Don't Believe~    Hell                              blackness/nothng




So at the very best, you're going to wind up just as well as the folks that didn't let go of God.  And at the worst, you're going to Hell.  That's why Atheism is silly.

Oh wow.

I've read the God Delusion, and while I think Dawkins should stick to his field, I think he was actually spot on about the "feigning" of belief that this wager supports. Belief should be real, not faked.

[El JoNNo]

That is one of the reasons that Pascal's Wager is a terrible argument. It implies that either your God is dumb or disingenuous about wanting true belief. On top of all that if you want to resort to what if scenarios; what if it isn't the Christian god? What if it's Shangdi, Aphrodite
Apollo, Baal, Ba Xian, Fenrir, Hades etc etc etc etc.... Oh but wait there's MORE! What denomination of these religions should you follow; for it is a bigger list.

Pascal's wager is a fail argument.

[TheVoxyn]

Ah, I missed all of the cool game theory on the first page. Even though I'm widely interested in game theory, I think it's quite a silly argument.

Let's do the exact same thing with a spaghetti monster. If you eat spaghetti every week you will get infinite utility when you die (and -infinite if you didn't eat the spaghetti). This means that everyone should eat spaghetti, even if you hate it. After all, it's better to be on the safe side. And so we can think up a million bullshit things you should do just in case there is a higher power after death that wants you to do it.

[Vivace]

Or put a different way, believing in God is a personal choice.  Religion is a group of assholes telling you how and what you should believe.  

Nice to be called an asshole. Thanks a fucking lot.

[William Wallace]

Or put a different way, believing in God is a personal choice.  Religion is a group of assholes telling you how and what you should believe.  

Nice to be called an asshole. Thanks a fucking lot.

Don't worry. People tend to extrapolate their experiences to include all religious institutions. Take comfort in the fact that he's completely wrong.

[AndyDT]

Sorry I don't believe in predestiation of any sort and I've read the bible inside and out. I know what it says. I believe humans have free will I just believe that the bible is a man made collection document full of classic fables, some good some bad. I don't believe it's historically or scientifically accurate and I now find many of the things in it quite offensive. It's not just christianity I feel this way about either but that's the particular religion I came out of.

Is that just the bible or the Bhagavad Gita, Tao, Upanishads, Sikh bible etc as well?

[The Degenerate]

AndyDT has entered the fray!

[Jamesman42]

And he just turned the tables on this debate! Oh snap!

[El Barto]

Or put a different way, believing in God is a personal choice.  Religion is a group of assholes telling you how and what you should believe.  

Nice to be called an asshole. Thanks a fucking lot.

Don't worry. People tend to extrapolate their experiences to include all religious institutions. Take comfort in the fact that he's completely wrong.

People also tend to feel personally wronged when they misinterpret an attack on an institution as an attack on it's individual members.  I have no problem with people who practice whatever faith they wish to practice.  In fact, I'm generally pleased when people find something that makes them happy.  I have a big problem when they all band together to become an institution, convinced that there's is the only way.  

[millahh]

When I first saw this thread, I was considering writing to add some of my own experiences, titled "Atheism Saved My Marriage"  (alternate title: "Abusive Fundamentalist Christianity Nearly Destroyed My Marriage"), but as this has become a debate on Pascal's Wager, I think I'll abstain for now...

[William Wallace]

Or put a different way, believing in God is a personal choice.  Religion is a group of assholes telling you how and what you should believe.  

Nice to be called an asshole. Thanks a fucking lot.

Don't worry. People tend to extrapolate their experiences to include all religious institutions. Take comfort in the fact that he's completely wrong.

People also tend to feel personally wronged when they misinterpret an attack on an institution as an attack on it's individual members.  I have no problem with people who practice whatever faith they wish to practice.  In fact, I'm generally pleased when people find something that makes them happy.  I have a big problem when they all band together to become an institution, convinced that there's is the only way.  

Why does it bother you so much? Nobody forces you to take part. And think about it. Any group dedicated to any cause - whether religious, political or otherwise - claims their view of that cause is correct. On the other hand, if the group organizes and attempts to force their ethics and theology on the rest of us, I would completely agree with you. But just the fact that people form institutions isn't all that bothersome.

[tjanuranus]

When I first saw this thread, I was considering writing to add some of my own experiences, titled "Atheism Saved My Marriage"  (alternate title: "Abusive Fundamentalist Christianity Nearly Destroyed My Marriage"), but as this has become a debate on Pascal's Wager, I think I'll abstain for now...

Fuck that. I specifically said i didn't want this to be a debate thread. There are other threads for that i wanted this to be about person experience so PLEASE go ahead and share.

[millahh]

Or put a different way, believing in God is a personal choice.  Religion is a group of assholes telling you how and what you should believe.  

Nice to be called an asshole. Thanks a fucking lot.

Don't worry. People tend to extrapolate their experiences to include all religious institutions. Take comfort in the fact that he's completely wrong.

People also tend to feel personally wronged when they misinterpret an attack on an institution as an attack on it's individual members.  I have no problem with people who practice whatever faith they wish to practice.  In fact, I'm generally pleased when people find something that makes them happy.  I have a big problem when they all band together to become an institution, convinced that there's is the only way.  

Why does it bother you so much? Nobody forces you to take part. And think about it. Any group dedicated to any cause - whether religious, political or otherwise - claims their view of that cause is correct. On the other hand, if the group organizes and attempts to force their ethics and theology on the rest of us, I would completely agree with you. But just the fact that people form institutions isn't all that bothersome.

Sort of...people who join are not forced...but people who are born into it ARE forced for a long time, even if they leave as adults...and that time as part of the institution can be catastrophically damaging.

[tjanuranus]

Or put a different way, believing in God is a personal choice.  Religion is a group of assholes telling you how and what you should believe.  

Nice to be called an asshole. Thanks a fucking lot.

Don't worry. People tend to extrapolate their experiences to include all religious institutions. Take comfort in the fact that he's completely wrong.

People also tend to feel personally wronged when they misinterpret an attack on an institution as an attack on it's individual members.  I have no problem with people who practice whatever faith they wish to practice.  In fact, I'm generally pleased when people find something that makes them happy.  I have a big problem when they all band together to become an institution, convinced that there's is the only way.  

Why does it bother you so much? Nobody forces you to take part. And think about it. Any group dedicated to any cause - whether religious, political or otherwise - claims their view of that cause is correct. On the other hand, if the group organizes and attempts to force their ethics and theology on the rest of us, I would completely agree with you. But just the fact that people form institutions isn't all that bothersome.

Sort of...people who join are not forced...but people who are born into it ARE forced for a long time, even if they leave as adults...and that time as part of the institution can be catastrophically damaging.

Yep i'm not going to brainwash my kids with my non religious out look on life. If they want to go to church they are more than welcome to. Maybe they will find happiness in it. I will even drive them there if they want to. I think parent's who brainwash their children into religion have no idea what they are really doing to their childs brain. Speaking from personal experience. I didn't have the option of not believing when i was a kid. I was forced to go to church and christian school. I want my kids to make up their own minds when it comes to religion. If they ask me what i believe i will tell them but it won't be forced on them.

[William Wallace]

Or put a different way, believing in God is a personal choice.  Religion is a group of assholes telling you how and what you should believe.  

Nice to be called an asshole. Thanks a fucking lot.

Don't worry. People tend to extrapolate their experiences to include all religious institutions. Take comfort in the fact that he's completely wrong.

People also tend to feel personally wronged when they misinterpret an attack on an institution as an attack on it's individual members.  I have no problem with people who practice whatever faith they wish to practice.  In fact, I'm generally pleased when people find something that makes them happy.  I have a big problem when they all band together to become an institution, convinced that there's is the only way.  

Why does it bother you so much? Nobody forces you to take part. And think about it. Any group dedicated to any cause - whether religious, political or otherwise - claims their view of that cause is correct. On the other hand, if the group organizes and attempts to force their ethics and theology on the rest of us, I would completely agree with you. But just the fact that people form institutions isn't all that bothersome.

Sort of...people who join are not forced...but people who are born into it ARE forced for a long time, even if they leave as adults...and that time as part of the institution can be catastrophically damaging.

That's a fair point. But, again, that's also the nature of society. People impart their views to their children, and I don't see a reasonable way to change that.

EDIT:

Yep i'm not going to brainwash my kids with my non religious out look on life. If they want to go to church they are more than welcome to. Maybe they will find happiness in it. I will even drive them there if they want to. I think parent's who brainwash their children into religion have no idea what they are really doing to their childs brain. Speaking from personal experience. I didn't have the option of not believing when i was a kid. I was forced to go to church and christian school. I want my kids to make up their own minds when it comes to religion. If they ask me what i believe i will tell them but it won't be forced on them.

If I do end up making kids, I'll teach them my views about the world. But it won't be the abusive, fear based version you have described. I'll teach them precisely why it makes sense to be a Christian. If they leave the fold when they're older it will be their choice, but I don't think it's necessary to abstain from teaching them about religion from a religious perspective. 

[El Barto]

Obviously you're not going to change that, but it'd be nice if they were people's personal beliefs, which all the Christians here seem to agree are the important ones, rather than just dogma proffered by Brother Maynard every Sunday morning. 

[73109]

When I first saw this thread, I was considering writing to add some of my own experiences, titled "Atheism Saved My Marriage"  (alternate title: "Abusive Fundamentalist Christianity Nearly Destroyed My Marriage"), but as this has become a debate on Pascal's Wager, I think I'll abstain for now...

I'd like to hear this if it counts for anything. It probably doesn't, but still.

[millahh]

When I first saw this thread, I was considering writing to add some of my own experiences, titled "Atheism Saved My Marriage"  (alternate title: "Abusive Fundamentalist Christianity Nearly Destroyed My Marriage"), but as this has become a debate on Pascal's Wager, I think I'll abstain for now...

I'd like to hear this if it counts for anything. It probably doesn't, but still.

It may take a bit to write up, but I'll try to post it in the next couple of days.

[73109]

[j]

Yep i'm not going to brainwash my kids with my non religious out look on life. If they want to go to church they are more than welcome to. Maybe they will find happiness in it. I will even drive them there if they want to. I think parent's who brainwash their children into religion have no idea what they are really doing to their childs brain. Speaking from personal experience. I didn't have the option of not believing when i was a kid. I was forced to go to church and christian school. I want my kids to make up their own minds when it comes to religion. If they ask me what i believe i will tell them but it won't be forced on them.

You can facilitate a positive environment for them to think freely, etc, but it's inevitable that your own worldview will be conveyed to them on a daily basis over the course of their lives, and will play a large role in shaping their own beliefs in one way or another, at least while they're under your roof.  And that's fine; it's the case for everybody and it's probably just a reality of being a parent.

The more important thing, IMO, is encouraging things like asking questions, critical thinking, and honesty.  That's the stuff that will ideally stick with them for their entire lives, and help them to become better, more informed people regardless of their belief system.

-J

[73109]

I always said that if I had a kid, I'd expose him to as much as possible and foster everything. As a jew turned somewhat atheist/agnostic/wannabebuddhist, I can safely say that if my kid found Jesus Christ as his savior, I'd be happy. I'd want my kid to be happy as long as he was not part of a sect that was hateful or very fundamentalist, because they tend to be the people that I would not want anybody to be.

[Jirpo]

I usually thought about the possible moves and then picked the most logical one. My lapras was pretty good at defeating pokemon with rock slide.

[Rathma]

Atheism is an absolutely absurd belief system.

Where did you get the idea that atheism is a belief system? It's just a way of classifying people who don't believe in God. That's not a belief system.

[El JoNNo]

Not collecting stamps is an absurd hobby.

[hefdaddy42]

Pascal's Wager is just an awful, awful concept.  And there is no way that belief is a choice.

@OP - I'm very sorry for the experiences you have had in the past with religion. 

[Tick]

My feeling is this. People are the reason I have walked away from God in the past. Then I realized I should put little stock in much of what they think and say. Its the only way I can personally hold on to the faith I have.
There is a truth that goes far beyond mans distorted versions. Its up to you to find it on your own terns and no one elses.  Man is too flawed to ever get it right. I'm glad you are still here to post your thoughts. I hope you never become so closed minded to any possibility and you will always keep your options open. and I hope and pray you find truth from within as you continue life's endless search for answers. Books are written with many distortions because they are merely the views of an individual and not absolute truth. Not even close.
I know you don't believe at this point but I hope you never let the bitterness of those who tormented with there own distortions close the door on the possibility God could exist.
I pray you never sear your heart to the point of no return.
Stay well.

[AndyDT]

You were atheist after or before the attempt? So what saved your life? Your intuition, inspiration? Where are they from ? Could it be the unconscious, collective unconscious, God, the universal energy, the field, prannic energy, the omnipotent/omniscient/omnipresent, Tao?

[El JoNNo]

@tjanuranus,

This might be for you.

TheThinkingAtheist - Train Up A Child
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4zZytbe1a9s&feature=feedu

[The Degenerate]

Pascal's Wager is just an awful, awful concept.  And there is no way that belief is a choice.

These.

Just saw the Pascal's Wager stuff on the first page. Had myself a good laugh.

[Aramatheis]

@TJ

Thank you for sharing these undoubtedly personal revelations and experiences you've had; I'm glad to see that everything, in the end, has worked out and that you've found your own happiness. In my opinion, the best thing a man/woman can do is forge their own beliefs in life, and create their own paths.
I would like to share my own beliefs and how I came to them.


Like many people, I was raised a Catholic. However, my family is not very, shall we say, "zealous" when it comes to our religion. We all received our sacraments, yet we rarely attend mass, nor do we attend confession on a regular basis. Having been enrolled in catholic school, I have attend masses and confessions through my school, but now that I've moved on to post-secondary education, I doubt that I will continue to do so.

So throughout my entire life, I've subscribed to the Catholic belief system, but I do not consider myself to be a religious person at all; I don't reflect upon my beliefs or my religion. One day, a friend on mine asked me what I believed in. Since I knew I wasn't a "good" Catholic, I told him so, and that I wasn't sure what that made me. He explained that if I didn't believe in my religion (or any) that I was an atheist (a term I had never heard at that time) or an agnostic (if I didn't believe in a higher power, but was open to the possibility).

But even then, I disagreed. And this is the part I've (personally) had trouble figuring out. I didn't think that I should be named atheist, because I didn't disbelieve. But I didn't think I deserved the title of Catholic, because I do not practice my faith, and don't truly believe. I couldn't give my friend an answer, and for a long time afterwards, I thought about his question.

After much deliberation, I finally found an answer. I found that my belief system was non-existent. I didn't need to be an atheist, or a catholic, or an agnostic, because it didn't matter to me! What truly mattered to me was not the practice of rites and rituals, but the practice of being the best, hard-working person I could be. I know that morals and ethics are not a concrete science; but I am resolved to help others to the best of my abilities, to be as selfless as I can, to work towards my goals as hard as I can, to be a good friend, an even better family member, and when the time comes, the best husband/partner/lover/boyfriend I can be.

Nobody is perfect (because "perfection" is completely subjective) so I will make mistakes, and I will learn from them. So this realization, much like the OP's decision to become atheist, is what makes me happy. And just like the OP, I hope my realization/decision will help others sort out their beliefs.

[j]

^Good post.  And I would guess, if you're more committed to being selfless and being the best person you can be, and since you clearly sound like an honest person, you're probably even a "better" Christian/Catholic than you were before, even if you're not going to Mass every week.  All of those things you listed that you consider important to being a good person probably--at least in part--come from your religious background.

-J

[Aramatheis]

  All of those things you listed that you consider important to being a good person probably--at least in part--come from your religious background.

-J

I see your point. But I also believe that these things are just what I've observed in every day life.
If you watch an honest, hardworking man, you'll see that he ends his day exhausted, but content with the knowledge that he's fulfilled his role as provider for his family, and as a responsible member of society. If you watch a kind, gentle person, you'll see that those surrounding him/her will be happy, and kind to others in turn.

[Ħ]

Pascal's Wager is just an awful, awful concept.

Speaking from personal experience, PW is one of the reasons I started questioning these things.

And there is no way that belief is a choice.

Again from personal experience, I find I often have to "correct" my thinking.  I'll catch myself not believing, and I have to step back make the decision to believe again.  It's very unnatural for me but it's gotten easier over time.