If grocery stores were like public schools

[rumborak]

The single biggest factor in bettering a childs education is the family.  The educational background and views on the importance of education of the parents....and the direct involvement they have in their childs education.
As an example: when my 5 yr old goes to bed, I read her a book....then she reads ME a book.  I dont think many parents do anything even close to this.  They drop their kid off at school, and pick them up, and that is where the learning stops.
The schools system is not the biggest problem.

I agree. It's like trying to exchange the lighting of a plant when the soil is toxic. I think one reason why the Chinese population managed to increase their status so much in the US (especially when compared to the black population) is because the parents have an undying belief that education is key to someone's success, and thus do their utmost at home to facilitate that.

rumborak

[eric42434224]

Not sure if many will agree with this, but it is what I see every day.  The reason I send my kids to private school is not primarily for the better "education" in terms of pure academics.  It is for the environment.  The environment and atmosphere of learning and respect at the private school is far better.....the kids have more manners, are more interested in learning, and have more success.  It is because of the types of families that send their kids there.  They are families that value education and proper behavoir, and have far more involvement in the education process.  The cirriculum and resources are the same as any other school (except religion class)....yet the entire feel of the school is different.  Changing the school system isnt the problem, and really wont change anything.  The schools that are "better" are simply where the "better" families send their kids.  

[Chino]

Not sure if many will agree with this, but it is what I see every day.  The reason I send my kids to private school is not primarily for the better "education" in terms of pure academics.  It is for the environment.  The environment and atmosphere of learning and respect at the private school is far better.....the kids have more manners, are more interested in learning, and have more success.  It is because of the types of families that send their kids there.  They are families that value education and proper behavoir, and have far more involvement in the education process.  The cirriculum and resources are the same as any other school (except religion class)....yet the entire feel of the school is different.  Changing the school system isnt the problem, and really wont change anything.  The schools that are "better" are simply where the "better" families send their kids.  

I went to the same private school for 9 years. My graduating class had 18 kids in it. Two of them are on a path that may lead somewhere. I will never ever send my child to a private school. Maybe it was just the one I went to, but from my experience it is nothing but bad news. At least when it comes to how they deal with the future when they grow up.

[eric42434224]

Not sure if many will agree with this, but it is what I see every day.  The reason I send my kids to private school is not primarily for the better "education" in terms of pure academics.  It is for the environment.  The environment and atmosphere of learning and respect at the private school is far better.....the kids have more manners, are more interested in learning, and have more success.  It is because of the types of families that send their kids there.  They are families that value education and proper behavoir, and have far more involvement in the education process.  The cirriculum and resources are the same as any other school (except religion class)....yet the entire feel of the school is different.  Changing the school system isnt the problem, and really wont change anything.  The schools that are "better" are simply where the "better" families send their kids.  

I went to the same private school for 9 years. My graduating class had 18 kids in it. Two of them are on a path that may lead somewhere. I will never ever send my child to a private school. Maybe it was just the one I went to, but from my experience it is nothing but bad news. At least when it comes to how they deal with the future when they grow up.

The children that graduate from the private school I send my kids to have phenomenal success.  It is a feeder school for one of the best private schools in the country.  I think it is clear that it is just the one you went to.

[El Barto]

Not sure if many will agree with this, but it is what I see every day.  The reason I send my kids to private school is not primarily for the better "education" in terms of pure academics.  It is for the environment.  The environment and atmosphere of learning and respect at the private school is far better.....the kids have more manners, are more interested in learning, and have more success.  It is because of the types of families that send their kids there.  They are families that value education and proper behavoir, and have far more involvement in the education process.  The cirriculum and resources are the same as any other school (except religion class)....yet the entire feel of the school is different.  Changing the school system isnt the problem, and really wont change anything.  The schools that are "better" are simply where the "better" families send their kids.  

I went to the same private school for 9 years. My graduating class had 18 kids in it. Two of them are on a path that may lead somewhere. I will never ever send my child to a private school. Maybe it was just the one I went to, but from my experience it is nothing but bad news. At least when it comes to how they deal with the future when they grow up.

The children that graduate from the private school I send my kids to have phenomenal success.  It is a feeder school for one of the best private schools in the country.  I think it is clear that it is just the one you went to.

I'd say it's a little of both.  I think that most of the kids who go to private school do so because their parents value education.  The ones I went to were a huge step above the DISD schools.  However, there were also people who sent massively obnoxious troublemakers (such as myself) to a school that'd be better suited to dealing with them.  While you certainly don't have the thug element that public schools get saddled with, you don't necessarily wind up with a particularly enlightened group, either. 

Also worth noting is that increased cost doesn't necessarily improve the quality of people attending.  I've certainly seen rich kids that were every bit as fucked up as their lower class counterparts.  More civilized, but monsters nonetheless. 

[Cool Chris]

Having been sent to private schools as a kid, I generally agree with eric42434224. As least with my peer group, we valued our performance in school, and this appreciation for education was instilled in us by our parents. But at the same time, I was personally more interested in getting good grades to brag to my friends and make my parents proud than I was in the actual learning process. And because I hated to fail more than I wanted to succeed.

My parents thought sending me to private schools would not necessarily give me a “better education”, but train me to think analytically, help me develop a solid work ethic, interact with kids and families who shared the same values, and better prepare me for future challenges.

That being said, I got through my private schools with stellar grades, and continued on to get my 4 year degree, and am stuck in a dead end job earning $30k/year. So an education isn’t any sort of guarantee for future success.

[Durg]

As I said before.  I've been sending my son to private school for the last 4 years.  For three years he was going to a very small Christian school in a rural area with only a few kids in the class.  He had the same teacher for all three years.  This last year we sent him to a much larger private school with much higher academic standards and larger class sizes.  Now we very much regret ever sending him to the first private school.  It has literally set him back at least a year.  He has gone through this year fighting with the other kids, failing math and loosing assignments.  He never seems to know what's going on in class and has no clue how to study for a test.  His last private school was simply too easy and was not preparing him for academic success.  His self esteem was already pretty poor but now it's pretty much rock bottom.  He tells us this is the school he wants to go to but he's really having a tough time.  The problem is where we live, too.  We live in a rural community where the schools are very poor and ranks very low.  I think he doesn't want to go to public school because he was teased so badly by the elementary students in the 1st and 2nd grade for being adopted and very small.  One kid in particular was very abusive to him and my son always wanted to be around him like in some sort of co-dependent relationship.  We had to get him out of there.  So now we have him in a good place we hope but the psychological scars are going to be long lasting I fear.  He's getting along with the classmates now and starting to figure out how to be a student.  Still failing math though.   

edit:  Did I mention we're going broke trying to pay for his tuition.   Gas prices are not helping either since this new school is 45 minutes away.  We're actually wanting to move close to the school.

[7StringedBeast]

Transportation is another issue if you privatize all schools.  What about the bus systems?  How will all the kids get to their schools?  I'm willing to bet no many parents will be willing or able to drive their kid to school every day.

The teacher's union's power has to be curtailed.  Tenure needs to be revoked.  Teachers need to be able to lose their job just like anyone else in order to keep them working as hard as they should be for the kids.  Then start paying teachers based on performance.  This is the best way to start getting instant improvements without crazy restructuring. 

The other problem is that the government keeps throwing their money around at terrible schools.  Inner city schools keep getting money for new gyms and things like that.  This has been going on in NJ at least.  Throwing money into things like new gyms is not going to help academics.  The money has to go into proper textbooks and teacher's pay or after school activities that are focused on education.  But I guess since they are inner city kids we should just give them new gyms in hope we can breed some new NBA players    stupid government.

[Nigerius Rex]

Transportation is another issue if you privatize all schools.  What about the bus systems?  How will all the kids get to their schools?  I'm willing to bet no many parents will be willing or able to drive their kid to school every day.

Vehicles that can carry large numbers of people are not a technology controlled by the government?

[El Barto]

Budget Mix-Up Provides Nation's Schools With Enough Money To Properly Educate Students

Sources in the Congressional Budget Office reported that as a result of a clerical error, $80 billion earmarked for national defense was accidentally sent to the Department of Education, furnishing schools with the necessary funds to buy new textbooks, offer more academic resources, hire better teachers, promote student achievement, and foster educational excellence—an oversight that apologetic officials called a "huge mistake."

"Obviously, we did not intend for this to happen, and we are doing everything in our power to right the situation and discipline whoever is responsible," said House Budget Committee chairman Paul Ryan (R-WI), expressing remorse for the error. "I want to apologize to the American people. The last thing we wanted was for schools to upgrade their technology and lower student-to-teacher ratios in hopes of raising a generation of well-educated, ambitious, and skilled young Americans."

"That's the type of irresponsible misspending that I've been focused on eliminating for my entire political career," Ryan added.

[XJDenton]

Nice.

[7StringedBeast]

Transportation is another issue if you privatize all schools.  What about the bus systems?  How will all the kids get to their schools?  I'm willing to bet no many parents will be willing or able to drive their kid to school every day.

Vehicles that can carry large numbers of people are not a technology controlled by the government?

The money for school buses comes from the budgets of the schools which are paid for by the US government and all the local governments under it.  Not having buses will mean kids will not be guarenteed a way to school.  Private schools can have the option to not have buses or make students pay for them.

[William Wallace]

I think the last line in that article shows blatant bias by the creator. Also i think it's asinine to compare education to supermarkets. Lastly the harder a teachers job is, the less they get paid. Teachers in the inner city get paid less than teachers in wealthier neighborhoods. If pay was based on test scores this discrepancy would get even worse. Which means the poor people get fucked again because no good teacher would want to go somewhere that odds are, they are going to get paid way less. Also teachers and police officers should be making more money, not less. Politicians should be making less money than they do.

One of the related reforms in the works is a performance based pay increase. See here for an example of how it could work:

In July 2008, Rhee revealed her opening gambit with the teachers union: She offered the teachers a whole lot of money. Under her proposal, educators would have two choices. With the first option, teachers would get a $10,000 bonus—a bribe, really—and a 20 percent raise. Nothing else would change. Benefits, rights, and privileges would remain as they were. Under the second option, teachers would receive a $10,000 bonus, a 45 percent increase in base salary, and the possibility of total earnings up to $131,000 a year through bonuses tied to student performance.

Honestly, the vast majority of "research" I have seen on this was heavily biased and supposed to show the result the author wanted to see. The Conservatives want less gov't involvement in education, that is the starting point. After that "research" was created to show that it's better to do so.

rumborak

How does your criticism not also apply to the article you just linked to? Really, you could discredit research in any field conducted by anybody based on the above rationale. But the argument becomes less convenient when you actually look at the number of studies from different institutions and their methodologies. Can everybody be in on the conservative education conspiracy?

[rumborak]

There is a difference between projection and fact. Conservative research relies on projection and says it will be beneficial. Sweden's case is fact and shows it isn't.

rumborak

[William Wallace]

There is a difference between projection and fact. Conservative research relies on projection and says it will be beneficial. Sweden's case is fact and shows it isn't.

rumborak

Oh, I forgot. If the study comes from someone ideologically opposed to you, it's always a forecast, speculation. If happens to confirm your view it's based on the cold, hard facts.  I'm such an idiot.

Just to reiterate, "...the argument becomes less convenient when you actually look at the number of studies from different institutions and their methodologies. Can everybody be in on the conservative education conspiracy?"

[rumborak]

So you're saying the Swedes can't be trusted in their assessment that the standard of education hasn't improved, but you here in the US know better?
Let me put it this way: If you have to dig deep in the statistics to find some improvement, the voucher system clearly didn't work as advertised. It is being advertised as something that will markedly improve the standards. And that it clearly didn't.

rumborak

[William Wallace]

So you're saying the Swedes can't be trusted in their assessment that the standard of education hasn't improved, but you here in the US know better?
Let me put it this way: If you have to dig deep in the statistics to find some improvement, the voucher system clearly didn't work as advertised. It is being advertised as something that will markedly improve the standards. And that it clearly didn't.

rumborak

There's a massive body of literature, relatively speaking, that says otherwise. I don't dispute that vouchers may have left something to be desired in Sweden, but I shouldn't have to tell you how dubious it is to make a decision based on one example.  In an aggregate sense the reforms have made demonstrable improvements around the world.

[rumborak]

I just read the Wikipedia article on the implementations across the world, and the results seem rather mixed.
I mean, I am by no means opposed to adding some competition to the whole thing, I just think the advertisement of vouchers is heavily overblown. They don't achieve nearly what the proponents say they do, because the devil is in the detail. For example, the ability to move between cities to have your child go to a good school is pretty much a privilege of the rich.

rumborak