Author Topic: Tolkien's other books  (Read 18420 times)

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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #70 on: November 10, 2016, 11:29:17 AM »
 :lol 

So who is everyone's favorite non-LOTR/Hobbit character?

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #71 on: November 10, 2016, 11:33:21 AM »
Huan or Glaurung, depending on my mood.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #72 on: November 10, 2016, 11:36:48 AM »
Morgoth

lol j/k

I dunno, that's a toughie.
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Offline Prog Snob

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #73 on: November 10, 2016, 11:46:13 AM »
Morgoth is one of my favorites. I always seem to like reading more about the villains. They always seem to be these multi-layered characters with an interesting story.

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #74 on: November 10, 2016, 11:52:46 AM »
I always have fascinations with the massive villains like Glaurung, Carcharoth, and one of my all-time favorites, Ancalagon.
"My melancholy wants to rest in the hiding places and abysses of perfection. This is why I need music." –Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #75 on: November 10, 2016, 12:18:15 PM »
Those are some good choices, especially the dragons. I would love to see Morgoth and Ancalagon come to fruition in some form. We should convince Blob to create a video of them.  :lol

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #76 on: November 10, 2016, 12:20:36 PM »
I'm not even sure any sort of cinematic anything would do a creature the scale of Ancalagon justice.

"My melancholy wants to rest in the hiding places and abysses of perfection. This is why I need music." –Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #77 on: November 10, 2016, 12:40:51 PM »
Yeah, I'd wet myself seeing that on the big screen. :lol

Here's a great version of Ancalagon facing Earendil.

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #78 on: November 10, 2016, 12:42:51 PM »
I think that vastly overestimates Earendil's stature. When Ancalagon fell, he utterly destroyed all of Thangorodrim in his wake. Three full-size mountain peaks. While a gorgeous painting, the relative scale there puts him at not much larger than Smaug.
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #79 on: November 10, 2016, 01:23:01 PM »
I'm seeing...


































































IMAX
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #80 on: November 10, 2016, 01:40:25 PM »
I enjoy them for what they are, but they really lost the spirit of some of the characters. I think it would have been given less criticism if the embellishments were still true to the nature of Tolkien's universe. However, I feel like PJ was more concerned about the action sequences. That's not what Tolkien wrote about though. I will still watch them but would love if someone eventually did one movie, more true to the book. I'd be happy if it was animation...just not Disney. :lol

There's always the Rankin-Bass animated version of The Hobbit.  70's cheapo animation, and the goblins and elves look weird, but it does have the virtue of sticking closer to the book than that three-headed thing Peter Jackson did.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2016, 01:43:41 PM »
I think that vastly overestimates Earendil's stature. When Ancalagon fell, he utterly destroyed all of Thangorodrim in his wake. Three full-size mountain peaks. While a gorgeous painting, the relative scale there puts him at not much larger than Smaug.

I know. I guess the artist did his best to get them in the same drawing without making Earendil the size of a gnat. :lol

IMAX

I'm seeing my geek brain overloading.  :biggrin:

I enjoy them for what they are, but they really lost the spirit of some of the characters. I think it would have been given less criticism if the embellishments were still true to the nature of Tolkien's universe. However, I feel like PJ was more concerned about the action sequences. That's not what Tolkien wrote about though. I will still watch them but would love if someone eventually did one movie, more true to the book. I'd be happy if it was animation...just not Disney. :lol

There's always the Rankin-Bass animated version of The Hobbit.  70's cheapo animation, and the goblins and elves look weird, but it does have the virtue of sticking closer to the book than that three-headed thing Peter Jackson did.

My father showed me that when I was younger. It was so cool watching it back then, especially right after reading the book. He wouldn't let me watch the cartoon until I read the book. I still watch it from time to time.

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2016, 01:46:34 PM »
I may have missed this in the earlier parts of the thread because I didn't read back, but what did you think of Bakshi's film?
"My melancholy wants to rest in the hiding places and abysses of perfection. This is why I need music." –Friedrich Nietzsche

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2016, 01:49:12 PM »
I only saw it once. I wasn't too impressed with it but it certainly wasn't as bad as everybody makes it out to be. I was warned not to waste my money. :lol  However, I'm a completist, so I had to buy it and watch it. What about you?

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2016, 01:51:30 PM »
I honestly haven't weatched it all in one pass. It doesn't hold my interest, oddly enough. I think I'm turned off by the animation style and it hurts my focus. I've watched it in stages and never really feel the pull to watch it all at once. Also, knowing it isn't the full story kinda fucks it right there.
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2016, 01:55:18 PM »
It covers the the first two books and a sequel was never made. Rankin/Bass did an unofficial sequel called Return of the King.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2016, 01:55:37 PM »
Rotoscope, baby.
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Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2016, 01:56:33 PM »
I like what Bakshi attempted, but the film was not finished when it was released, and it shows.  The rotoscoped orcs are the most obvious offenders.  I think they applied some kind of tinting to them to make it about 2% less obvious.  And of course, he only finished the first part and never got any funding for the rest because the first part was rushed to release.  But in general, I like Bakshi's animation style and would have loved to have seen it done properly.

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #88 on: November 11, 2016, 06:12:33 AM »
Has anyone read The Children of Hurin? Is it basically an expanded version of the story of Turin Turambar from The Silmarillion?
« Last Edit: November 11, 2016, 09:08:46 AM by Logain Ablar »

Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2016, 08:05:54 AM »
I read it years ago when it first came out.  I was excited to get some "new" Tolkien to read, and it' pretty good, but it's much smaller story.

I don't want to say that it lack the grand scale of Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion, because that's obvious, or that it "suffered" for it, because that's not really fair.  But it's really more for people who just can't get enough Tolkien.  He has a certain writing style, which is fine, but it's really just another story, just a fleshing out of a concept from something else, for people who just can't get enough Tolkien.  I don't remember any truly epic scenes, like The Bridge of Khazad-dûm and the balrog, or The Battle of Helm's Deep, or anything like that.  And I haven't read it since.  Nothing wrong with it; I just don't feel like "Man, that was a great book!  I'll read it again."

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2016, 08:13:43 AM »
Yes I read it when it came out – the story is already a part of The Silmarillion, it just goes into deeper detail. It's one of my favorite subplots of the mythology.
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Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2016, 09:13:59 AM »
Cool. Doesn't sound like a must read. I'll maybe pick it up if I run out of other stuff.

I don't remember any truly epic scenes, like The Bridge of Khazad-dûm and the balrog, or The Battle of Helm's Deep, or anything like that.  And I haven't read it since.  Nothing wrong with it; I just don't feel like "Man, that was a great book!  I'll read it again."

Funny you should mention The Bridge of Khazad-dûm. I was reading that chapter on the train this morning on the way into work. It was one of those few occasions you wish your commute was actually longer!

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #92 on: November 12, 2016, 08:41:19 PM »
I loved The Children of Hurin. It's nowhere near as great as Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion but it's definitely something you should eventually pick up.

A lot of people think that Lord of the Rings is technically a trilogy. Tolkien was pretty adamant about it not being called that. In his eyes, it's one book broken into six parts.

Offline Orbert

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2016, 08:55:07 PM »
I don't remember any truly epic scenes, like The Bridge of Khazad-dûm and the balrog, or The Battle of Helm's Deep, or anything like that.  And I haven't read it since.  Nothing wrong with it; I just don't feel like "Man, that was a great book!  I'll read it again."

Funny you should mention The Bridge of Khazad-dûm. I was reading that chapter on the train this morning on the way into work. It was one of those few occasions you wish your commute was actually longer!

:tup

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2016, 03:35:19 AM »
I loved The Children of Hurin. It's nowhere near as great as Lord of the Rings or The Silmarillion but it's definitely something you should eventually pick up.

A lot of people think that Lord of the Rings is technically a trilogy. Tolkien was pretty adamant about it not being called that. In his eyes, it's one book broken into six parts.

Yeah, I think the split was forced on him by the publishers, as they weren't able to deal with the sheer size of the text. When I first read it, I bought the all in one edition (with John Howe's Gandalf on the cover) so I've never really thought of it as 3 separate parts anyway.

Maybe the Children of Hurin has potential then. I think I was assuming it was another of these "history" type books with lots of side notes to fill in the gaps. That would have put me off.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2016, 03:45:03 AM »
Not at all. It's written as a regular novel.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #96 on: November 13, 2016, 03:27:41 PM »
When I read LOTR the first time, I already struggled with the vast number of people and place names. Some point later I then tried the Silmarillion, but that was LOTR on steroids in that regard. Never made any significant headway into it.
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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #97 on: November 13, 2016, 04:20:22 PM »
Totally understandable.  My first couple of times through LOTR, I didn't memorize/learn all the place names as they came up.  It was more like, when place names come up, see if it looks familiar, try to remember, skip back in the book to where I saw it before, oh yeah, those guys.  The Silmarilion, being written in the style of an actual history book, even moreso.  But I read them anyway, multiple times, because the writing style and the characters are so cool.  Eventually, I got to where I know pretty much all the names and places in LOTR.

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #98 on: November 13, 2016, 05:48:38 PM »
Peter Jackson should film that lesser known book " Broke Back Mount Doom ".

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #99 on: November 13, 2016, 10:06:14 PM »
When I read LOTR the first time, I already struggled with the vast number of people and place names. Some point later I then tried the Silmarillion, but that was LOTR on steroids in that regard. Never made any significant headway into it.

My father has LOTR, Hobbit, The Sil, and Unfinished Tales. After I read LOTR and The Hobbit, I wanted to read The Silmarillion. He made a face and said that it's not an easy read because of the many names and the Ainulindale. I wasn't even a teenager yet so I guess he thought it would be too much, but he didn't realize that I had already read War and Peace, Les Miserables, and Canterbury Tales. The Silmarillion wasn't that hard, especially in comparison to those. I actually gravitate towards more complex stories to see what makes them as such. I have Clarissa waiting for me once I finish taking my test on the 30th.


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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #100 on: November 25, 2016, 03:04:08 AM »
I found the article where Christopher Tolkien expressed his contempt for what Peter Jackson did to the movies. It's a long article, but if you just want to read the few sentences about what he said, scroll down to the last few paragraphs.

https://www.worldcrunch.com/world-affairs/my-father039s-quotevisceratedquot-work-son-of-hobbit-scribe-jrr-tolkien-finally-speaks-out

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #101 on: November 25, 2016, 04:22:40 AM »
Quote
Invited to meet Peter Jackson, the Tolkien family preferred not to. Why? "They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25," Christopher says regretfully. "And it seems that The Hobbit will be the same kind of film."

He was wrong about that - The Hobbit was far far worse.  :lol

Quote
"The chasm between the beauty and seriousness of the work, and what it has become, has overwhelmed me. The commercialisation has reduced the esthetic and philosophical impact of the creation to nothing. There is only one solution for me: turning my head away."

I get where he's coming from, but I don't think he would really have been happy with any adaptation, in any form. I do think that the LOTR movie was actually very respectful of the book. Far more so than The Hobbit.

BTW, I did buy this, which I'll probably get to right after finishing LOTR: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tales-Perilous-Realm-Roverandom-Classic/dp/0007280599/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480072794&sr=8-1&keywords=tales+from+the+perilous+realm




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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #102 on: November 25, 2016, 05:39:39 AM »
Quote
Invited to meet Peter Jackson, the Tolkien family preferred not to. Why? "They eviscerated the book by making it an action movie for young people 15 to 25," Christopher says regretfully. "And it seems that The Hobbit will be the same kind of film."

He was wrong about that - The Hobbit was far far worse.  :lol

Yeah... they really killed the Tolkien mood with that one. My brother, a lifelong fan, refused to see the rest of the movies after seeing the first one. I mean, that's a bit sad for someone. You love something so much and you're excited to see it on the big screen and the disappointment is so palpable you lose all interest.


I get where he's coming from, but I don't think he would really have been happy with any adaptation, in any form. I do think that the LOTR movie was actually very respectful of the book. Far more so than The Hobbit.

BTW, I did buy this, which I'll probably get to right after finishing LOTR: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Tales-Perilous-Realm-Roverandom-Classic/dp/0007280599/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1480072794&sr=8-1&keywords=tales+from+the+perilous+realm



I don't think it's too hard to follow the atmosphere of the story without turning it into a CGI assault. Don't get me wrong. I do like the movies for what they are and enjoy them because it's based on Tolkien, but The Hobbit as a tribute to the books was a disappointment. They took a book that's one third the size of LOTR and made into three movies.  :yeahright

In LOTR, they turned Frodo into a whiny bitch. The main fucking character and you couldn't even get his personality right. That kind of pissed me off, but they are still three awesome movies for many other reasons.

There are some things in LOTR that they changed and I was alright with. For example, introducing Arwen as the one who helps Frodo instead of Glorfindel. I was a bit disappointed with it but I think they wanted to bring her into the story so they can give her and Aragorn their backstory as opposed to halfway through the movies and suddenly he has a love interest. You know?

And...where was Tom Bombadil??  :biggrin:

Offline Logain Ablar

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #103 on: November 25, 2016, 06:57:39 AM »
I think I can just about forgive them for leaving out TB. I suppose it's the same with some of the other quirky elements, like the songs and poems, which work ok on the page, and are part of the charm of the book, but would just seem totally weird and distracting onscreen.

I agree about the character of Frodo - he seems a lot more feeble onscreen than in the book. They got the character of Sam down a lot better, IMO. I didn't like Galadriel's transformation into the evil witch queen thing. That was the first part that made me cringe and took me right out of the movie - in the book it was a lot more subtle.

With the Hobbit, I think it started ok, but it took a real turn for the worse around the CGI-fest that happened in the Great Goblin's kingdom. I think I've said this before, but the worst part in the whole trilogy for me was Dain Ironfoot - terrible terrible terrible. They made him into a total pig-riding CGI buffoon.


Getting back on topic (sort of) - I see that Christopher Tolkien turned 92 a couple of days ago. Do you think the family's position will soften on releasing the right for future movie deals when he passes? I kind of hope not..

Offline Hyperplex

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Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #104 on: November 25, 2016, 07:59:59 AM »
I seriously hope the family keeps the lock on the rights. Current generations should gain love of Tolkien through his words, not the Hollywood bastardizations of his stories. As great as the original trilogy is as an adaptation, it is NOT the same as the book, and, either by necessity or poetic license, does omit/change details. As for The Hobbit, forget it. Like John said, as a Tolkien-based piece I can watch and enjoy, sort of, bit it's a blatant departure from almost the entire story, with major plot and thematic changes.

There were only a few changes about the original trilogy that irked me. I was ok with the absence of the Borrow-wights, Old Man Willow, and TB. Without the written word, it would have taken too much exposition to explain them to the lay audience.

The swap of Glorfindel with Arwen didn't bother me much, but I have to say the overall reliance on Arwen's diminishing and their love as a plot device was a bit much.

Totally agreed about Frodo's character. He was not the whiny pissant be was portrayed as, and the "love" between him and Sam was actually one born of tremendous respect and loyalty, but the on-screen portrayal bordered on romance.

Probably the most egregious change for me was Faramir's character. He is completely benevolent in the book, while his initial antagonism in the movie not only warps him at first, but also results in an unnecessary confrontation at Osgilliath whereby Sam has to once again prevent Frodo from being a pathetic loser by giving up. Only then does the cinematic Faramir see the forest for the trees, and I still don't see why that conflict was necessary.

Those are relatively minor gripes, in my opinion, compared to the slutjob done to the Hobbit, though.
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