Author Topic: Tolkien's other books  (Read 18193 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline GuineaPig

  • Posts: 3754
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #35 on: May 07, 2011, 07:16:13 AM »
I've read a lot of Tolkein, and The Silmarillion was the toughest to make it through, but I found it quite enjoyable.

If memory serves, Tolkein wanted the third volume of LOTR to be titled The War of the Ring, because he felt that The Return of the King gave away the ending.  But the publisher overruled him.

As if there was much question about how it would end  :rollin
"In the beginning, the universe was created. This made a lot of people very angry, and has been widely regarded as a bad idea."

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19227
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #36 on: May 07, 2011, 09:51:35 AM »
Well, to be fair, destroying The Ring was always the main objective of the quest, and the defeat of the evil demigod Sauron was intimately linked to that.  All the talk about the ancient Men of the West who were descended from the Kings of Gondor and how the Rangers were rumoured to be them in hiding or exile or whatever, seemed a secondary plot at best, and mostly just backstory for us, and I think JRRT meant it to be that way.  As the story went on, it did seem to come up a bit more often, but it still felt like it was just to give us more background on the whole deal with Gondor and Rohan and Denethor and Theoden, and who the Stewards are and why they're not Kings, and again it was easy to dismiss because the big war was coming up, and Frodo and Sam were in Mordor now, etc.  And oh yeah, those giant flying things that can totally tear the city up.  Let's focus on what's important, okay?

Then once Sauron is defeated, Gandalf has to point out to them that the King has returned.  Only the King could have wielded the sword and enlisted the help of The Grateful Dead, and didn't Bilbo point out to everyone way back in Rivendell that Aragorn was "the Dunedain" -- the Man of the West?  It was right in front of us the whole time, and JRRT kept adding more and more clues throughout the story, and most people still didn't figure it out.  Even naming the third volume "The Return of the King" -- which just might have hinted that that was an important event -- wasn't enough.  Most people just wondered what in the heck that had to do with Sauron and The Ring and all.

I'm thinking that's either some seriously good writing or seriously bad writing, and it ain't bad.

Offline Perpetual Change

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 12264
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #37 on: May 07, 2011, 09:54:00 AM »
Not to piss on anyone's parade, but I was hoping this thread would be about Tolkien's other books.  :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Offline ehra

  • Posts: 3362
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #38 on: May 07, 2011, 10:52:46 AM »
And now it's time for my obligatory plug of the Tokien Professor. He does college courses on Tolkien's works and releases the audio on his site, he's got discussions on some of Tolkien's early essays and such on there. As a side note, he's a strong supporter of people reading The Silmarillion first.

https://www.tolkienprofessor.com/lectures/courses_seminars/course_sem.html

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19227
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #39 on: May 07, 2011, 09:50:55 PM »
Not to piss on anyone's parade, but I was hoping this thread would be about Tolkien's other books.  :biggrin: :biggrin: :biggrin:

Point goes to PC.

Offline Aramatheis

  • The lighter's dead
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1211
  • Gender: Male
  • and the gas has been cut off
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #40 on: May 07, 2011, 09:59:44 PM »
 :lol

Offline JayOctavarium

  • I used to be a whorejerk
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10055
  • Gender: Male
  • But then I took a Hef to the knee...
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #41 on: May 08, 2011, 08:08:22 PM »



guess what i just found again
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

-BlobVanDam on "Scarred"

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19227
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #42 on: May 08, 2011, 10:14:39 PM »
It's fucked up, man.  They printed the cover backwards or something.

Offline JayOctavarium

  • I used to be a whorejerk
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10055
  • Gender: Male
  • But then I took a Hef to the knee...
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #43 on: May 08, 2011, 10:18:18 PM »
the image is flipped
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

-BlobVanDam on "Scarred"

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19227
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #44 on: May 08, 2011, 10:22:10 PM »
That's what I'm saying.  You should get your money back.  Either that or I was being sarcastic.

Offline JayOctavarium

  • I used to be a whorejerk
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10055
  • Gender: Male
  • But then I took a Hef to the knee...
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #45 on: May 08, 2011, 10:32:30 PM »
That's what I'm saying.  You should get your money back.  Either that or I was being sarcastic.

im too out of it to tell...

hhaha
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

-BlobVanDam on "Scarred"

Offline MetalJunkie

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 6970
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #46 on: May 09, 2011, 12:35:31 PM »
That's what I'm saying.  You should get your money back.  Either that or I was being sarcastic.
:lol
Listen! Do you smell something?

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19227
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #47 on: May 09, 2011, 01:02:07 PM »
I'm just being an ass.  It always amazes me when people post pictures (not just here, but pretty much everywhere) that are reversed because they took the picture in a mirror.  Every PC, including Macs, has some kind of basic software that at least lets you flip an image horizontally or vertically.

Offline JayOctavarium

  • I used to be a whorejerk
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 10055
  • Gender: Male
  • But then I took a Hef to the knee...
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #48 on: May 10, 2011, 11:18:33 AM »
orbert... tis all good
I just don't understand what they were trying to achieve with any part of the song, either individually or as a whole. You know what? It's the Platypus of Dream Theater songs. That bill doesn't go with that tail, or that strange little furry body, or those webbed feet, and oh god why does it have venomous spurs!? And then you find out it lays eggs too. The difference is that the Platypus is somehow functional despite being a crazy mishmash or leftover animal pieces

-BlobVanDam on "Scarred"

Offline Orbert

  • Recovering Musician
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 19227
  • Gender: Male
  • In and around the lake
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #49 on: May 10, 2011, 11:20:54 AM »
:tup

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #50 on: November 10, 2016, 05:50:04 AM »
With the announcement of the new Tolkien book coming out next year, I figured I'd bump this thread.

https://www.theonering.net/torwp/2016/10/20/102403-new-edition-of-tolkiens-luthien-and-beren-coming-may-2017/

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #51 on: November 10, 2016, 07:25:23 AM »
Nice!
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #52 on: November 10, 2016, 07:33:21 AM »
I can't believe Christopher Tolkien (his son) is 91 years old and still putting stuff together.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #53 on: November 10, 2016, 07:40:01 AM »
I can't believe Christopher Tolkien (his son) is 91 years old and still putting stuff together.
Milk it.

Milk it.


Maybe when he passes away, whoever takes over the estate will agree to selling film rights to The Silmarillion.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #54 on: November 10, 2016, 07:44:17 AM »
They remained very quiet for the longest time but then eventually tore into the film version of The Hobbit. They were less than pleased with how it was done, so I think it would take a lot of convincing to sign over film rights to The Silmarillion. But it would be glorious if it were to ever happen.

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #55 on: November 10, 2016, 07:44:59 AM »
Well, I completely understand why they would have torn into those films.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #56 on: November 10, 2016, 07:48:10 AM »
I enjoy them for what they are, but they really lost the spirit of some of the characters. I think it would have been given less criticism if the embellishments were still true to the nature of Tolkien's universe. However, I feel like PJ was more concerned about the action sequences. That's not what Tolkien wrote about though. I will still watch them but would love if someone eventually did one movie, more true to the book. I'd be happy if it was animation...just not Disney. :lol

Offline Hyperplex

  • Evelator
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4211
  • Gender: Male
  • So often fragile power turns to scorn and ridicule
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #57 on: November 10, 2016, 08:14:43 AM »
I've read as many of Tolkien's extant writings as I've been able to get my hands on, which is why he is one of my favorite authors. My favorite remains The Silmarillion for it's depth and intensity. And I think I would viscerally hate it if anyone got movie rights to it. Firstly, it would be an unmitigated disaster trying to turn an epic that really has no thematic plot other than history into a feature film or series, and with the way The Hobbit films were utterly bastardized in the name of cinema (don't get me started, by a third of the way through the second Hobbit film, it ceased to really be The Hobbit for me), I think I would loathe it. General Hollywood audiences would not follow 90% of the Ainulindale (creation myth) let alone the various lineages, histories, battles, and storylines that follow.

I really love how much detail went into the history of Elves and Men, and the way Tolkien was able to parallel so many things from real life into his fantasy world. He managed to weave a creation story that mirrored the biblical creation myth, but did so in a way that had no religious undertones; he likened it to music, differing themes. Evil came from dissonance, desire for power. He literally crafted an entire world, a mythology that rivals any that existed in actual history.
"My melancholy wants to rest in the hiding places and abysses of perfection. This is why I need music." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Logain Ablar

  • False Dragon
  • Posts: 1092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #58 on: November 10, 2016, 08:58:03 AM »
It's been about 20 years since I read the Silmarillion. I remember it being a hard slog, but it was worth it for the large chunks of great stories, like Beren & Luthien, Feanor and Melkor/Morgoth, etc. I can't see any way on (middle) earth (see what i did there? ;)) that they could make a movie out of it, and I hope they don't attempt to.

I also read the Book of Lost Tales - there's a great chapter about Gandalf convincing the dwarves to go Bag End just before the beginning of the Hobbit. I'll dip into that now and again.

The History of Middle Earth series was just a step too far for me. Too much like a text book, with so many side notes and "connective tissue" from CT.

The thing I love about Tolkien's writing is that he describes everything as if it were fact - it really happened, these were real people and places. It just has such a way of drawing you in. I'll also admit to shedding a tear when I reached the end of LOTR for the first time.  :'( It's the only book that's ever made me do that..

Has anyone read some of the more obscure books like Leaf By Niggle, or The Adventures of Tom Bombadil? I'd like to pick them up at some stage.

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #59 on: November 10, 2016, 08:58:14 AM »
I've read as many of Tolkien's extant writings as I've been able to get my hands on, which is why he is one of my favorite authors. My favorite remains The Silmarillion for it's depth and intensity. And I think I would viscerally hate it if anyone got movie rights to it. Firstly, it would be an unmitigated disaster trying to turn an epic that really has no thematic plot other than history into a feature film or series, and with the way The Hobbit films were utterly bastardized in the name of cinema (don't get me started, by a third of the way through the second Hobbit film, it ceased to really be The Hobbit for me), I think I would loathe it. General Hollywood audiences would not follow 90% of the Ainulindale (creation myth) let alone the various lineages, histories, battles, and storylines that follow.

I really love how much detail went into the history of Elves and Men, and the way Tolkien was able to parallel so many things from real life into his fantasy world. He managed to weave a creation story that mirrored the biblical creation myth, but did so in a way that had no religious undertones; he likened it to music, differing themes. Evil came from dissonance, desire for power. He literally crafted an entire world, a mythology that rivals any that existed in actual history.

It's nice to hear you're such a fan of The Silmarillion. I try to read it once every year or two and it's coming up on that time. However, I recently picked up a paperback version of Unfinished Tales (I have other versions) so I might read through that again.

I think The Silmarillion would be exceedingly hard to bring to the screen and keep the true spirit of it. Like I mentioned above with The Hobbit, I would love to see an animated version of the creation myth. I think that could be done brilliantly. Like fans did with the LOTR prequels, with better funding, one could really make something beautiful.

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #60 on: November 10, 2016, 09:00:16 AM »
It's been about 20 years since I read the Silmarillion. I remember it being a hard slog, but it was worth it for the large chunks of great stories, like Beren & Luthien, Feanor and Melkor/Morgoth, etc. I can't see any way on (middle) earth (see what i did there? ;)) that they could make a movie out of it, and I hope they don't attempt to.

I also read the Book of Lost Tales - there's a great chapter about Gandalf convincing the dwarves to go Bag End just before the beginning of the Hobbit. I'll dip into that now and again.

The History of Middle Earth series was just a step too far for me. Too much like a text book, with so many side notes and "connective tissue" from CT.

The thing I love about Tolkien's writing is that he describes everything as if it were fact - it really happened, these were real people and places. It just has such a way of drawing you in. I'll also admit to shedding a tear when I reached the end of LOTR for the first time.  :'( It's the only book that's ever made me do that..

Has anyone read some of the more obscure books like Leaf By Niggle, or The Adventures of Tom Bombadil? I'd like to pick them up at some stage.

I have read Leaf by Niggle and Tom Bombadil, but it was a long time ago.

I love The History of Middle Earth. You're right, though. It's not the easiest read because it includes lots of editorial and lost ideas.

Offline Hyperplex

  • Evelator
  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4211
  • Gender: Male
  • So often fragile power turns to scorn and ridicule
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #61 on: November 10, 2016, 09:06:27 AM »
I had more fun reading through the Lost Tales and the stuff that was released posthumously than some of the actual fiction because it showed how things evolved. But The Silmarillion is just so damn rich, with so many offshoots and storylines and deeper stories, like the Fall of Gondolin, Beren and Luthien, the stories with Huan, Children of Hurin...all of it. I can't believe it all came from one mind.

People are always so amazed at how small a part of Middle-earth LOTR and The Hobbit actually are.
"My melancholy wants to rest in the hiding places and abysses of perfection. This is why I need music." –Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Logain Ablar

  • False Dragon
  • Posts: 1092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #62 on: November 10, 2016, 09:20:58 AM »
One other book of his I'd like to read at some stage is this one:



I read the translation by Seamus Heaney a few years ago and liked it. It would interesting to see Tolkien's take on it. (I also seem to be the only person on the planet that liked the movie The 13th Warrior, which was also based on the Beowulf story  :lol)

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #63 on: November 10, 2016, 09:23:35 AM »
The detail is massive. When I do write fantasy, Tolkien is definitely my inspiration. He will tell us about the flow of the Anduin and the snow-capped Caradhras. We'll know the names of the roads Frodo and Sam took, the color of the sky and shape of the clouds. We'll hear the sounds of the swords clashing and the intensity of a gust of wind. It's all about imagination and bringing it to life with such rich detail that we want to be there next to the hobbits eating the crispy bacon.

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #64 on: November 10, 2016, 09:24:46 AM »
One other book of his I'd like to read at some stage is this one:



I read the translation by Seamus Heaney a few years ago and liked it. It would interesting to see Tolkien's take on it. (I also seem to be the only person on the planet that liked the movie The 13th Warrior, which was also based on the Beowulf story  :lol)

I love Beowulf but never read Tolkien's take on it. That's on my list of books to buy. I've never seen The 13th Warrior, but since it's based on Beowulf I'll probably check it out.

Offline bosk1

  • King of Misdirection
  • Administrator
  • *****
  • Posts: 12791
  • Bow down to Boskaryus
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #65 on: November 10, 2016, 09:28:41 AM »
I wasn't aware that he did a translation (I am a LOTR fan, but not a "Tolkien fan" per se).  I am curious whether his translation differs in any material respects.  Given that he was a big linguistics guy as well as a gifted storyteller, I would not be surprised if he adds a different style and flair to it.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Logain Ablar

  • False Dragon
  • Posts: 1092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #66 on: November 10, 2016, 09:30:53 AM »
I've never seen The 13th Warrior, but since it's based on Beowulf I'll probably check it out.

Just bear in mind that everyone else but me seems to hate it..  :lol

Offline Prog Snob

  • DT.net Veteran
  • ****
  • Posts: 16727
  • Gender: Male
  • In the end we're left infinitely and utterly alone
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #67 on: November 10, 2016, 09:53:31 AM »
I tend to have obscure taste, so we'll see.  :)

Offline hefdaddy42

  • Et in Arcadia Ego
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 52785
  • Gender: Male
  • Postwhore Emeritus
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #68 on: November 10, 2016, 10:19:13 AM »
I've never seen The 13th Warrior, but since it's based on Beowulf I'll probably check it out.
DON'T DO IT
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline Logain Ablar

  • False Dragon
  • Posts: 1092
  • Gender: Male
Re: Tolkien's other books
« Reply #69 on: November 10, 2016, 10:59:10 AM »
I've never seen The 13th Warrior, but since it's based on Beowulf I'll probably check it out.
DON'T DO IT

You see? What did I tell you? :lol