Author Topic: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?  (Read 20170 times)

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Offline Xanthul

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #70 on: May 03, 2011, 09:44:57 AM »
*Lots of stuff*

So, even if we're not going to consider that the band could possibly classify their own music wrongly...

*more stuff*
 

I think this is an important point. If a director filmed a 70 minute movie and called it a short film, would it become a short film? I don't think so.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #71 on: May 03, 2011, 09:45:28 AM »
I can understand people thinking 6DOIT to be a suite (even though I disagree).  But I don't understand people thinking that SFAM could be one song.  That doesn't even make sense; that's NEVER been on the table.
Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #72 on: May 03, 2011, 09:46:58 AM »
Dream Theater never said that's what they were doing with that work, so how do you know?

Yes, they did.  They said it is a song.  I'm not sure why that isn't getting through.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #73 on: May 03, 2011, 09:56:42 AM »
The problem with calling "Six Degrees..." a single song is its very choppy flow.  As a suite of individual songs that mostly run together, it works well.  As a single song, not as much.  If they want to call it one song, that is fine by me, but I think it is similar to "The Whirlwind" in that it is far easier to consider it a suite than a single song. 

bosk1, do you consider Neal Morse's ? one song?  If not, why not?

Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #74 on: May 03, 2011, 09:58:55 AM »
bosk1, do you consider Neal Morse's ? one song?  If not, why not?

Not really sure.  I didn't like it much, and I've only lisened a couple of times, so I'm not very familiar.  But, more to the point:  I'm not sure because I don't know what Neal considers it to be.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #75 on: May 03, 2011, 09:59:49 AM »
Neal considers it one song.

And bosk, ban yourself for not loving it with sheer intensity.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #76 on: May 03, 2011, 10:00:50 AM »
Dream Theater never said that's what they were doing with that work, so how do you know?

Yes, they did.  They said it is a song.  I'm not sure why that isn't getting through.

That wasn't my question, and you know it. Did you seriously not understand the question I posed to you, was I not clear, or are you just being dishonest with me on purpose now?

I can understand people thinking 6DOIT to be a suite (even though I disagree).  But I don't understand people thinking that SFAM could be one song.  That doesn't even make sense; that's NEVER been on the table.

Yeah, I'm not disagreeing with that.
Neal considers it one song.

And bosk, ban yourself for not loving it with sheer intensity.

This. You hate ? and don't know/care what a suite is. WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THIS THREAD!!!!



Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #77 on: May 03, 2011, 10:02:23 AM »
Dream Theater never said that's what they were doing with that work, so how do you know?

Yes, they did.  They said it is a song.  I'm not sure why that isn't getting through.

That wasn't my question, and you know it. Did you seriously not understand the question I posed to you, was I not clear, or are you just being dishonest with me on purpose?

???  I don't get why you would think I am being dishonest.  Have I ever been that you can think of?



Neal considers it one song.

Okay, well then that settles that.  :lol
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Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #78 on: May 03, 2011, 10:03:39 AM »
Neal considers it one song.

And bosk, ban yourself for not loving it with sheer intensity.

This. You hate ? and don't know/care what a suite is. WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THIS THREAD!!!!


I don't think I said I "hate" anything.  Now who's being dishonest?
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #79 on: May 03, 2011, 10:04:45 AM »
Now who's being dishonest?

Me.

I stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #80 on: May 03, 2011, 10:05:37 AM »
Now who's being dishonest?

Me.

I stole the cookies from the cookie jar.

*slaps you*

...because you should have taken the Big Kat instead of the cookies.  Doofus.
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Offline Jamesman42

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #81 on: May 03, 2011, 10:09:59 AM »
But they were thin mints!

Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #82 on: May 03, 2011, 10:11:06 AM »
Well...I guess I can let that go then.
"The Supreme Court of the United States has descended from the disciplined legal reasoning of John Marshall and Joseph Story to the mystical aphorisms of the fortune cookie."

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #83 on: May 03, 2011, 10:12:52 AM »
Sweet, lying about the type of cookies worked. I AM dishonest!

Offline ?

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #84 on: May 03, 2011, 10:51:10 AM »
I'm admitting to not reading through this thread before responding.  But I personally don't view SDOIT as one song.  Kill me if you want.  Each section just sounds too different and separate, and the fact the the band broke it up into separate tracks on the CD therefore makes me view them as separate songs.
My thoughts exactly!

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #85 on: May 03, 2011, 11:15:10 AM »
Another angle is this: back in 2002 if I wanted to get someone into the heavy side of DT, I would probably burn them a copy of TWIMH and TTTSTA and say "listen to these SONGS". Conversely, if I thought the soft side of DT might appeal I would put GK and SS on a CD and say "listen to these SONGS". I wouldn't do that with sections of ACOS though, even though the band has played isolated sections live (not for a long time though).

Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #86 on: May 03, 2011, 11:46:13 AM »
Another angle is this: back in 2002 if I wanted to get someone into the heavy side of DT, I would probably burn them a copy of TWIMH and TTTSTA and say "listen to these SONGS". Conversely, if I thought the soft side of DT might appeal I would put GK and SS on a CD and say "listen to these SONGS". I wouldn't do that with sections of ACOS though, even though the band has played isolated sections live (not for a long time though).

Well, sure.  I get that.  I would probably do the same thing just because it's easier to describe it that way rather than explain the whole background of them being separate movements of a larger song.  Doesn't change what they are, but the less formal description is just easier as a practical matter.
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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #87 on: May 03, 2011, 12:30:51 PM »
Another angle is this: back in 2002 if I wanted to get someone into the heavy side of DT, I would probably burn them a copy of TWIMH and TTTSTA and say "listen to these SONGS". Conversely, if I thought the soft side of DT might appeal I would put GK and SS on a CD and say "listen to these SONGS". I wouldn't do that with sections of ACOS though, even though the band has played isolated sections live (not for a long time though).

Well, sure.  I get that.  I would probably do the same thing just because it's easier to describe it that way rather than explain the whole background of them being separate movements of a larger song.  Doesn't change what they are, but the less formal description is just easier as a practical matter.

Agreed. I think the band really confused the issue by having each movement have its own verses, choruses, and instrumental/solo sections. If those things had been more random, it would "feel" more like a distinct song IMO.

Offline ZirconBlue

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #88 on: May 03, 2011, 04:49:41 PM »
To me SDOIT Disc 2 contains 8 musically individual songs that link together at the same topic, call it suite or concept album but don't call it one song imo.
What so the band are wrong about how they classify their own piece of music?

That's ridiculous. The band wrote it as a song, therefore it's a song. People can consider it to be whatever they want (personally I think it makes an amazing parsnip) but in terms of answering the OP, it is considered one song because that is what the band consider it to be.

What if DT decided to say that SoC is an Operetta?








Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #89 on: May 03, 2011, 06:08:55 PM »
Neal considers it one song.

And bosk, ban yourself for not loving it with sheer intensity.

This. You hate ? and don't know/care what a suite is. WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THIS THREAD!!!!


I don't think I said I "hate" anything.  Now who's being dishonest?
How  does it feel? Seriously though, you totally dodged my question.

Quote
Yes it does, because you said Dream Theater were "pushing the boundaries of traditional musical concepts." Are you going to explain what those traditional music concepts are, and how they DT expanded on them? Dream Theater never said that's what they were doing with that work, so how do you know? Personally, I don't think there's anything revolutionary about Six Degrees at all. It's pretty standard suite material; see the example above.

EDIT: I mean, what's the big revolutionary idea behind SDOIT, then? They wrote a suite, but had the balls to call it "one long song?" Even though a suite is a more specific way to refer to a song in this context? And people are "confused" because they just don't understand how innovative DT were being by calling it "a song" instead of what it appeared to be?

You just happened to take on sentence out of that and misconstrued it make it seem like I was asking you about something else.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 06:30:19 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline Implode

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #90 on: May 03, 2011, 06:42:27 PM »
Guys. This is the real question:

Is 6DOIT a concept album? :neverusethis:

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #91 on: May 03, 2011, 06:48:34 PM »
Almost.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #92 on: May 03, 2011, 08:22:25 PM »
It basically comes down to "what does that band consider to be a song?"  When the band started writing Metropolis pt 2, yes, they intended it to be just one 21 minute song.  But after FII when they started discussing the next album, they decided that the next record should be a concept album, and since they had an incomplete Metropolis sequel left over from FII, they decided that rather then making Metropolis an epic song, they would expand the concept and divide up the existing parts into a whole album.  SFAM is one single piece of music throughout, but it is no more a "song" then, say, Beethoven's entire XI Symphony is one big 74 min "song".

On the flip side, when writing the 6DOIT album, the band actually took a break after writing the first 5 tracks to play some shows.  After that, when they returned to the studio, they decided to write an epic similar to "A Change of Seasons" (this is actually mentioned both in Lifting Shadows and in the FAQ on MP's website).  The fact that the song ended up being 42 minutes long was a result of the band getting into a very creative groove while deliberately trying to make a long song.  It was indexed by movement because even Dream Theater recognized that having a single 42 minute track on an album would render the work a bit daunting and inaccessible to the listener.  But it was still listed on the album sleeve as a single 42 minute song, and on Score they actually did make it one single track, so I think it should be obvious that the band considers it to be one song consisting of eight movements, no different then "A Change of Seasons" consisting of seven movements.

Ultimately, what constitutes a "song" as opposed to a suite or an album is at the discretion of the creator.  I could argue that Symphony X's V is one big 62 minute song (and, not unlike SFAM, V was built around an incomplete 20 minute epic from the previous album), but the band explicitly lists it as a "suite", and they treat the individual songs on it as such.  Likewise, I would argue that Fates Warning's A Pleasant Shade of Grey is a concept album, and not a song, but the band has stated that they wrote it as one big 54 minute song, and simply decided to index it by section for the sake of convenience for the listener.  This sort of thing is really the decision of the artist, not the listener.  The listener may think of the individual parts of 6DOIT or APSOG as "songs", and no one can stop them from doing so, but both bands have stated that they wrote those works as "songs", not "suites", and they consider them to be such.  Ultimately, it is the artist, the creator of the work, who decides what makes a "song", a "suite", or an album, not the audience, who simply listens to it and had no hand in it's creation, and therefore is in no position to dictate to the creators of a work what constitutes a "song", "suite" or album.
« Last Edit: May 03, 2011, 09:10:27 PM by The Dark Master »

Offline orcus116

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #93 on: May 03, 2011, 09:57:42 PM »
Can anyone think of another example of a collection of tracks that comprise a song the way "Six Degrees" does? I only say this in conjunction with the fact that while these are a lot of songs like "A Change Of Seasons", "2112", etc. that have distinct sections, each section would sound almost incomplete and fragmented if split up whereas on "Six Degrees", as someone pointed out, you can just as easily divvy up the tracks and listen to them individually or together and they sound fine because each section is such a well defined and complete identity onto itself. I mean Solitary Shell has its own chorus and everything, whereas something like Another World is clearly just a cog in the machine.

Offline Jamesman42

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #94 on: May 03, 2011, 10:01:42 PM »
See, I agree with you, orcus...all the movements to me feel more like individual songs. Yeah, they wrap it up lyrically at the end, and some of the songs share the melodies, but it still feels so fragmented.

At the end of the day, though, artist intent wins, in my opinion.

Offline KevShmev

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #95 on: May 03, 2011, 10:20:05 PM »
Can anyone think of another example of a collection of tracks that comprise a song the way "Six Degrees" does? I only say this in conjunction with the fact that while these are a lot of songs like "A Change Of Seasons", "2112", etc. that have distinct sections, each section would sound almost incomplete and fragmented if split up whereas on "Six Degrees", as someone pointed out, you can just as easily divvy up the tracks and listen to them individually or together and they sound fine because each section is such a well defined and complete identity onto itself. I mean Solitary Shell has its own chorus and everything, whereas something like Another World is clearly just a cog in the machine.

The Flower Kings' "Garden of Dreams" is like that.  It is 18 tracks that combine to apparently form a single song, but, like "Six Degrees...," quite a few of them have a normal song structure (verse-chorus-verse-chorus-etc.).  

Offline ZBomber

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #96 on: May 03, 2011, 10:30:54 PM »
SDOIT might be considered one song, but if it is, then it is easily the weakest song in DT's catalog imo. If it is a song, it suddenly feels very bloated. If it's a suite, it becomes a lot lighter and easier to digest since it isn't one non-stopping 42 minute piece of music.

With that said, I don't view SDOIT as one song because I hardly ever listen to the whole thing front to back. I don't really care if the band considers it a song or a suite, it doesn't affect how I view/listen to the piece.

Offline The Dark Master

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #97 on: May 03, 2011, 10:43:52 PM »
Can anyone think of another example of a collection of tracks that comprise a song the way "Six Degrees" does? I only say this in conjunction with the fact that while these are a lot of songs like "A Change Of Seasons", "2112", etc. that have distinct sections, each section would sound almost incomplete and fragmented if split up whereas on "Six Degrees", as someone pointed out, you can just as easily divvy up the tracks and listen to them individually or together and they sound fine because each section is such a well defined and complete identity onto itself. I mean Solitary Shell has its own chorus and everything, whereas something like Another World is clearly just a cog in the machine.

Fates Warning - A Pleasant Shade of Grey.  Pretty much the same thing.  Consisting of 12 parts, most of which have "verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-coda" song structure.  

FW also has a 22 minute epic called "The Ivory Gate of Dreams" which on the original studio release was subdivided into 8 tracks but, like ACOS or 2112, the individual parts are clearly components of a greater whole.

I'm not going to debate that 6DOIT could have been classified a suite if Dream Theater wanted it to be so; the individual parts are musically developed enough to be considered songs in their own right, but that is not what Dream Theater wanted.  They set out to write a single epic and that is what they considered the final product to be, regardless of it's much extended length.  The reasons why it ended up being so long is mostly because a) they had a deadline to meet, so they put their creativity into overdrive, and b) they actually started writing the song with the explicit intent to make an epic.  Dream Theater normally doesn't actually try to make their songs so long; the songs just end up that way as a result of the band's extended jam based writing process.  So when they actually tried to make an epic number on purpose, the end result was much more then they had bargained for.  Frankly, I think if they hadn't already decided that the album was only going to consist of six songs, they may have extended the music even further into something that they would have considered to be a suite, like SFAM.  But since they had determined that their sixth album would consist of six long songs, combined with the fact that 6DOIT (the song) was all written in one jam session as one song, they chose to keep it and label it as one big song.  Dividing it into tracks was purely a distribution decision, not a creative one.

Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #98 on: May 04, 2011, 01:04:59 AM »
A suite is a type of song.  :)

Offline Nick

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #99 on: May 04, 2011, 01:06:31 AM »
I've been asking this for literally 5+ years, so good luck getting anywhere with it.

(Edit: Although I've always approached it as, if Scenes is multiple songs than so is Six Degrees)
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #100 on: May 04, 2011, 01:28:54 AM »
(Edit: Although I've always approached it as, if Scenes is multiple songs than so is Six Degrees)

That's the cool thing about suites. They're usually created in such a way that, for example, you don't have to sit through 40 minutes of Sugar Plum Fairies and Christmas dinner parties just to get to the part where King Rat get pwned.

Offline Nick

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #101 on: May 04, 2011, 01:30:17 AM »
I don't understand the point you're trying to make.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #102 on: May 04, 2011, 01:47:10 AM »
A suite is just a fancy way of saying a musical work with multiple movements, recurring motifs and some kind of other element in addition to that all (like a concept or theme the suite is centered around, or even something more tangible like a ballet). Many classical suites are almost identical, structure wise, to Six Degrees. I like the example I gave here:

If you don't think the definitions are muddled, I'd be curious to hear what you actually think constitutes a suite. I mean, here's an example of something that's just like SDOIT: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pictures_at_an_Exhibition

The composer wrote it for an artist friend of his who had recently died. There's an overture of the main theme, separate movements (which are each based on a different painting of his) and interludes in between movements which refrain the main melodies while serving as transitions. At the end there's a big finale which is somewhat based on the main themes. Replaces "movements based on paintings of the artist" with "chapters from some bargain-priced book on case studies" and you have Six Degrees.

In fact, many of the most recognizable classical music works are just movements from suites, like Aaron Copland's Shaker Hymn, from the Appalachian Spring suite. That's the cool thing about suites. They're long works which include a variety of interrelated material which doesn't necessarily have to, but usually can, stand alone in it's own right. The Nutcracker, which is what I was referring to above, is another famous suite; yet people would probably only be familiar with a movement or two which they remember hearing somewhere before.

A lot of prog epics are "like" suites, whether the bands actually say so or not. Tales from Topographic Oceans is, in my opinion, an album full of suites (in fact, when I was getting into prog rock my music teacher was trying to introduce me to Yes and that's exactly how he described it to me, having not known what it was because a suite simply 'is' what I have said it is, it's redundant to say 'a long song with multiple movements yadda yadda' when you could just say 'suite'). The same goes for many long Neal Morse compositions, and many long Dream Theater ones. 2112, in many ways, is also suite-like.

Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #103 on: May 04, 2011, 04:51:43 AM »
Again, I don't see the comparison between SFAM and 6DOIT at all, Nick.  They have nothing to do with each other.  SFAM is quite obviously a concept album, like The Wall or OM or any other.  It is one example of a known breed.

Hef is right on all things. Except for when I disagree with him. In which case he's probably still right.

Offline bosk1

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Re: What makes Six Degrees one song and not SFAM ?
« Reply #104 on: May 04, 2011, 09:27:56 AM »
Neal considers it one song.

And bosk, ban yourself for not loving it with sheer intensity.

This. You hate ? and don't know/care what a suite is. WHAT ARE YOU DOING IN THIS THREAD!!!!


I don't think I said I "hate" anything.  Now who's being dishonest?
How  does it feel? Seriously though, you totally dodged my question.

No I didn't.  I answered what I believe you asked.  If I misunderstood the question, then please clarify the question.
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