Osama Bin Laden dead.

[bosk1]

No, we don't help things much.  And Barto is right in what he said in his post.  BUT there's still no excuse for targeting civilians or for wishing an entire peopulation dead.  No matter how you slice it, there is no legitimate justification for that.

[Super Dude]

Although I think there is something to be said about the following statement:

people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not.  And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones.

I've been learning in a political theory class about the Enlightenment, which entails of course ideas such as rational self-interest and following and pursuing natural human progress.  I came across an interesting criticism by a contemporary that used the metaphor of a tree to describe human civilization.  He said that different cultures were different branches, and that the Enlightenment sought to hedge those branches in order to move humanity in the "right" direction, in whichever direction they deemed the most beneficial for humanity, or to go back to the metaphor, healthiest for the tree.  This philosopher, Johann Gottfried Herder (who is unfortunately more famous for the ubermentsch concept), advocated for allowing the tree to grow wild and in any direction nature takes it.  After all, who is anyone to say what is the right direction for the tree to grow in?  Who determines how the tree ought to be hedged, or if it ought to be at all?  Indeed we may miss something that could've been potentially beneficial to humanity as a whole because something seemed to be harmful for the rest of the tree or even for one immediate branch.

I'm not saying that tyrannical and despotic governments should continue to exist as they do and exploit their peoples.  But who are we to decide what the right alternative is?  I believe that when a people is done with a form of society and ready to start anew, they'll enact the change on their own.  After all, what have we been seeing in the last few months in the Middle East?  We certainly didn't get that ball rolling; those people did, when they were ready to.  And after all, our societies have their own problems, and if you look at them a certain way they may prove to be just as tyrannical as a Muslim caliphate, or worse.  It all depends whose eyes you're looking at it through.

[MetalMike06]

Stole the words from my mouth, SD 

[Super Dude]

And I stole those in turn from my professor!

[PlaysLikeMyung]

knock of teh plagiarism

[emindead]

And I stole those in turn from my professor!

Yeah, I could tell the copypasta It happens, though.

[tjanuranus]

Although I think there is something to be said about the following statement:

people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not.  And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones.

I've been learning in a political theory class about the Enlightenment, which entails of course ideas such as rational self-interest and following and pursuing natural human progress.  I came across an interesting criticism by a contemporary that used the metaphor of a tree to describe human civilization.  He said that different cultures were different branches, and that the Enlightenment sought to hedge those branches in order to move humanity in the "right" direction, in whichever direction they deemed the most beneficial for humanity, or to go back to the metaphor, healthiest for the tree.  This philosopher, Johann Gottfried Herder (who is unfortunately more famous for the ubermentsch concept), advocated for allowing the tree to grow wild and in any direction nature takes it.  After all, who is anyone to say what is the right direction for the tree to grow in?  Who determines how the tree ought to be hedged, or if it ought to be at all?  Indeed we may miss something that could've been potentially beneficial to humanity as a whole because something seemed to be harmful for the rest of the tree or even for one immediate branch.

I'm not saying that tyrannical and despotic governments should continue to exist as they do and exploit their peoples.  But who are we to decide what the right alternative is?  I believe that when a people is done with a form of society and ready to start anew, they'll enact the change on their own.  After all, what have we been seeing in the last few months in the Middle East?  We certainly didn't get that ball rolling; those people did, when they were ready to.  And after all, our societies have their own problems, and if you look at them a certain way they may prove to be just as tyrannical as a Muslim caliphate, or worse.  It all depends whose eyes you're looking at it through.

Very similar to what Marx was trying to say in the manifesto. Unfortunately anyone who claimed to followed his philosophies did pretty much the opposite of what it was saying. When the people have had enough and are willing to inact change, then a true revolution will succeed. Not what Lenin or Stalin did or anyone like that but when the mass majorty of the proleteriats wants it it will have a real chance of succeeding. People will always eventually resist oppression, of any kind. Sometimes it just takes a while.

[El Barto]

Explain to me how it is the US fault that the Saudi people are oppressed.

First off, I'm not entirely sure they are that oppressed.  From what I can tell, they're actually displeased because the government isn't hardassed enough (though I could be misinterpreting things here).  However, the people aren't happy with their leadership and it's entirely possible that Fahd would have been out on his ass 20 years ago without the massive US presence there propping him up.  Moreover, it's quite possible that Saddam would have moved into Saudi Arabia if we hadn't stopped him at Kuwait, and I'm not at all sure that wouldn't have been a big improvement.  Remember, Saddam was our pal until he started menacing Uncle Fahd.  There's also the notion that their number one beef is that we're trampling all over their desert, being infidels and letting women drive.  That's leading to a huge part of the discontent.  Anyway you slice it, they're not happy and we're heavily involved in their situation.  While things certainly might not be better if we'd taken a different course, we took the course we did and things suck.  Hard not to point the finger at us. 

[Super Dude]

What's funny is the pattern of this US-Middle East relationship looks almost exactly like the Han Dynasty's relations with the Xiongnu or the Roman Empire's far less successful dealings with the Goths and other Germanic European peoples.

1. We've (inadvertently or not) lent legitimacy to the rival power's ruling class (i.e. through starting revolutions or other stuff).

2. They provide us with a precious commodity that provides our leaders with legitimacy (in the above example, the Hans gave silk to the Xiongnu, who distributed it among their clan leaders in order to keep them all united).

3. The above exchanges cohere into a shaky peace between both rival powers.

Here's hoping our end result doesn't end up like that of the Romans.

[MasterShakezula]

What's funny is the pattern of this US-Middle East relationship looks almost exactly like the Han Dynasty's relations with the Xiongnu or the Roman Empire's far less successful dealings with the Goths and other Germanic European peoples.

1. We've (inadvertently or not) lent legitimacy to the rival power's ruling class (i.e. through starting revolutions or other stuff).

2. They provide us with a precious commodity that provides our leaders with legitimacy (in the above example, the Hans gave silk to the Xiongnu, who distributed it among their clan leaders in order to keep them all united).

3. The above exchanges cohere into a shaky peace between both rival powers.

Here's hoping our end result doesn't end up like that of the Romans.

Very interesting and true comparison.  (Also, the allusion to Rome totally reminds me of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hFhgv-eTkXo )

[Super Dude]

If ever in doubt of how to get out of this mess (this mess being any mess really), you can always looks to history.

[7StringedBeast]

Explain to me how it is the US fault that the Saudi people are oppressed.

First off, I'm not entirely sure they are that oppressed.  From what I can tell, they're actually displeased because the government isn't hardassed enough (though I could be misinterpreting things here).  However, the people aren't happy with their leadership and it's entirely possible that Fahd would have been out on his ass 20 years ago without the massive US presence there propping him up.  Moreover, it's quite possible that Saddam would have moved into Saudi Arabia if we hadn't stopped him at Kuwait, and I'm not at all sure that wouldn't have been a big improvement.  Remember, Saddam was our pal until he started menacing Uncle Fahd.  There's also the notion that their number one beef is that we're trampling all over their desert, being infidels and letting women drive.  That's leading to a huge part of the discontent.  Anyway you slice it, they're not happy and we're heavily involved in their situation.  While things certainly might not be better if we'd taken a different course, we took the course we did and things suck.  Hard not to point the finger at us. 

Considering women have absolutely no rights in Saudi Arabia, I'd say at least 50% of the population is oppressed.  That has nothing to do with the United States.  And like I said, people complain about going in and uprooting governments, you being one of those people.  So really, its not our fault.  We can't be held responsible for the governments that oppress their people.  It's not our place to go in and tell them what to do, right?  And we still have to play diplomacy with these people regardless.  But to say the US is what is upholding oppression around the world is ludicrous.  Just look at Egypt.  They got sick of it, and stood up for themselves as people.  The Saudis could do that if they wanted to.  Any country has the chance to do it.  It's not like the US is sitting there going no you can't. 

Maybe we are doing that in Saudi Arabia, but I doubt it.  The people there don't seem too motivated for change.  But I personally am displeased with our relationship with Saudi Arabia.  Just doesn't all mean that the US is at fault for the bullshit governments put their people through.

[tjanuranus]

Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now?

[tjanuranus]

Wow incredible photo!!

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now?

This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive

[Adami]

Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now?

This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive

Finding that hard drive seems like a bad thing to publicly announce.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

How so?

[AndyDT]

Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now?

This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive

Even interactive fiction?

[ReaPsTA]

Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now?

This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive

Even interactive fiction?

Holy crap Andy.  That was a... a joke!

DTF, we must take to the streets and celebrate this day!

[AcidLameLTE]

Prepare yourself for the quality of some our newspapers:

[Sigz]

Prepare yourself for the quality of some our newspapers:

link's broken.

[jsem]

Considering women have absolutely no rights in Saudi Arabia, I'd say at least 50% of the population is oppressed.  That has nothing to do with the United States.  And like I said, people complain about going in and uprooting governments, you being one of those people.  So really, its not our fault.  We can't be held responsible for the governments that oppress their people.  It's not our place to go in and tell them what to do, right? 

So why is the US meddling in Iraq? And why is the US supporting the Saudi government. Why not stay out of it completely?

And we still have to play diplomacy with these people regardless.  But to say the US is what is upholding oppression around the world is ludicrous.  Just look at Egypt.  They got sick of it, and stood up for themselves as people. 

Against a US backed leader by the name of Hosni Mubarak.

The Saudis could do that if they wanted to.  Any country has the chance to do it.  It's not like the US is sitting there going no you can't. 

Actually. Yes they are. Or they're not stopping the Saudi government from opressing their people, so indirectly by backing the Saudi house they're opressing the Saudi people.

Maybe we are doing that in Saudi Arabia, but I doubt it.  The people there don't seem too motivated for change.  But I personally am displeased with our relationship with Saudi Arabia.  Just doesn't all mean that the US is at fault for the bullshit governments put their people through.

Of course not. But all too often it has been the case. Seriously, Iran looks like a civil democracy compared to Saudi Arabia. And the US relationship with the Saudi house is the reason Osama got furious in the first place, he is of the Saudi house.

[Super Dude]

Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now?

This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive

Even interactive fiction?

Holy crap Andy.  That was a... a joke!

DTF, we must take to the streets and celebrate this day!

Holy shit, Andy made a joke!  The messiah really is coming!

More words of wisdom:

I mourn the loss of thousands of precious lives, but I will not rejoice in the death of one, not even an enemy.

[Nighthawkwill7]

While I am sure they already have a replacement lined up, I doubt he will have the same level of charisma, or be as politically savvy as Osama was, And that can only be seen as a good thing imo.
We may not have destroyed Al Qaeda, but we are one step closer at least.


Also, 

[King Postwhore]

Leave it to pro athletes to speak out of their asses.  Rashard Mendenhall of the Pittsburgh Steelers and I quote,

Mendenhall, who suggested a conspiracy on 9/11, took it a step further. "What kind of person celebrates death?" he tweeted. "It's amazing how people can HATE a man they have never even heard speak. We've only heard one side."

Never speak Rashard?  Really?!  Same on you for opening your mouth without knowing the facts.  I guess he doesn't watch a lot of TV.

[chknptpie]

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/out-of-osamas-death-a-fake-quotation-is-born/238220/

[bosk1]

https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/05/out-of-osamas-death-a-fake-quotation-is-born/238220/

Nice.

Even though the comments became a spam fest in no time flat, I love the first one:

"People believe anything they read on the internet if it fits their preconceived notions."

--Thomas Jefferson

[rumborak]

Man, want to have been a fly on the wall at that moment (they are following the incoming news about the identification of bin Laden).

rumborak

[chknptpie]

Is the Trinity Killer hanging out at the White House? What the heck...

[AcidLameLTE]

Prepare yourself for the quality of some our newspapers:

link's broken.

Dammit.

Edit: Thankfully, I had it open in another tab so I took a screenshot of it:

[El Barto]

Just heard that they got bin laden's hard drive and it could be huge in the fight against alqeada. *Dances in street* appropriate now?

This is the greatest part about the entire thing. They don't need to interrogate him. They have EVERYTHING (hopefully) on that hard drive

I'm more interested in how long it takes them to crack TrueCrypt.  This could be a fascinating test.  I'd assume that OBL's IT guy did his homework and clearly the prospects for a side-channel attack are slim.  They might not get anything but Aunt Shada's recipe for naan. 

[zerogravityfat]

Man, want to have been a fly on the wall at that moment (they are following the incoming news about the identification of bin Laden).

rumborak

the faces are really interesting. hillary is like 'holy shit i just witnessed a killing', obama is like 'die motherfucker, second term!', biden is like 'i wonder if i can catch the 1247 amtrak?'


btw, can anyone blow up and see what the pics in front of hillary are? is it osama's body?

[bosk1]

the faces are really interesting. hillary is like 'holy shit i just witnessed a killing', obama is like 'die motherfucker, second term!', biden is like 'i wonder if i can catch the 1247 amtrak?'

  I love you, ZGF.

[El Barto]

btw, can anyone blow up and see what the pics in front of hillary are? is it osama's body?

From here it looks like an aerial view of the compound. 

[rumborak]

That's what I'm thinking too. Has that familiar surrounded-by-dirt look.

rumborak