Osama Bin Laden dead.

[ricky]

TJ's friend has a good point, and is how I feel about this.

He was the leader of a cult, whom used the teachings of the Koran to justify his killings, In the name of god.

Way back before columbus, The conquistadors tried to kill all us Native Americans, by trying to force us to be like them in every way. They used the bible to justify that violence...Its sad how not many people from USA don't know that.

That's why I feel Osama was a rebel who felt his land was becoming something it wasn't meant to be. Except they messed with the wrong peoples. The difference is being human and forgiving, the people not the man.

like I said earlier to Implode, you make good points.

edit - quote myself for the win.

try again next time sonata.

[Ben_Jamin]

Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.

Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.

[sonatafanica]

TJ's friend has a good point, and is how I feel about this.

He was the leader of a cult, whom used the teachings of the Koran to justify his killings, In the name of god.

Way back before columbus, The conquistadors tried to kill all us Native Americans, by trying to force us to be like them in every way. They used the bible to justify that violence...Its sad how not many people from USA don't know that.

That's why I feel Osama was a rebel who felt his land was becoming something it wasn't meant to be. Except they messed with the wrong peoples. The difference is being human and forgiving, the people not the man.

like I said earlier to Implode, you make good points.

edit - quote myself for the win.

try again next time sonata.

Whatever dude

[ricky]

Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.

Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.

ok, look. not to push the point, or spam. I understood what sonata said, and it made sense from a philosophical standpoint. Im just saying what I believe.

Osama was bad. He killed 3,000 innocent american lives. to try to interpret it as more than what it was is absolute nonsense, which is what sonata is trying to do. to say "he sees it a different way" is crap to me, because no matter what he believed in, he still did what he did, and what he did was wrong.


edit - sorry sonata, i meant the point ben jamin made, not yours.

[sonatafanica]

Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.

Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.

ok, look. not to push the point, or spam. I understood what sonata said, and it made sense from a philosophical standpoint. Im just saying what I believe.

Osama was bad. He killed 3,000 innocent american lives. to try to interpret it as more than what it was is absolute nonsense, which is what sonata is trying to do. to say "he sees it a different way" is crap to me, because no matter what he believed in, he still did what he did, and what he did was wrong.

Alright, but you're using your beliefs as an excuse for perpetuating ignorance to another side of the situation.

[7StringedBeast]

Stop apologizing for a mass murderer and enemy to the US.  He declared war on us.  He made himself our enemy.  He got exactly what he was asking for.

The US does not target civilians.  Terrorists (Osama) was ALL about killing civilians.  Innocent people.  People having nothing to do with his beef with America. 

[sonatafanica]

I'm not apologizing for anyone, jesus christ what is going on here

[ricky]

Yes Sonata that's right. If you want to truly understand, you have to look at everything about this situation, Which is a lot and is a pain to type.

Also, which is why I'm not celebrating because they might see it as something offensive and makes it scary.

ok, look. not to push the point, or spam. I understood what sonata said, and it made sense from a philosophical standpoint. Im just saying what I believe.

Osama was bad. He killed 3,000 innocent american lives. to try to interpret it as more than what it was is absolute nonsense, which is what sonata is trying to do. to say "he sees it a different way" is crap to me, because no matter what he believed in, he still did what he did, and what he did was wrong.

Alright, but you're using your beliefs as an excuse for perpetuating ignorance to another side of the situation.

No, I totally understand what you said. read the above edit (which was before you posted your response).

I just want to say that I have no belief. to kill innocent people is wrong, that isn't a belief. and I wasn't perpetuating ignorance, I was just giving my own point of view.

i kept this thread appropriate, with valid points in a polite way. you are the one that labeled it as "ignorance."

[antigoon]

People angry in dis bitch.

[TempusVox]

As Bosk has already pointed out in this thread (by referencing the last one), everyone needs to chilllllll out, and think about their post before they hit the "post" button.

[Ben_Jamin]

Yeah, I understand Osama was an evil man. What I'm trying to get at I guess is he didn't act alone.

[Dublagent66]

Some of these recent posts remind me of a show I saw on History International (I think it was) about the interrogation of Saddam Hussein.  Yeah, I know it seems a little off topic, but it does have a lot to do with the way some feel about this thread.

Anyway, the interrogator was appointed by the FBI because he had a lot of experience growing up in the middle east (Lebanon).  Yeah, he was born in Lebanon and later moved to the U.S. and became involved in law enforcement and later, the FBI.  He and Saddam didn't like each other at first (for obvious reasons) but as the interrogation went on, they began to bond and the things that make us all similar began to surface and a certain trust started forming between them.  Some days they looked forward to talking and other days they didn't.  They played mind games with each other and it got quite tense at times.  But, when it came right down to it, they both ended up enjoying each others company.

At the end of the day, yeah, Saddam was still a war criminal and did horribly inhumane things to people, but he was also a person that could be related to, no matter how misguided.  The interrogator did attend Saddam's execution but took absolutely no pleasure in it whatsoever and I can see why.  He even felt sorry for Saddam on some level which may be hard for some people to believe.  It just goes to show that our perceptions of other people are really not 100% reality, even though their actions may tell a different story.

[jsem]

Stop apologizing for a mass murderer and enemy to the US.  He declared war on us.  He made himself our enemy.  He got exactly what he was asking for.

The US does not target civilians.  Terrorists (Osama) was ALL about killing civilians.  Innocent people.  People having nothing to do with his beef with America. 

Then you have to understand why. Maybe because the US government has backed corporate interests in these countries that have rendered them poor for decades, leading to a lower life expectancy and thus indirectly deaths. Just MAYBE that's why Osama hates the US, I mean - he comes from the Saudi house - a house that is backed by US just because of oil interests.

Indirectly, US government policy has been the cause of thousands of more deaths than the 3000 at twin towers. Still, neither are justified. And the reason for this is not to kill as many as possible, they do this to cause fear. Only that.

[7StringedBeast]

Give me a break.  The US is not causing these countries to be poor and run down.  Look at Saudi Arabia.  They are a rich nation yet their population is incredibly repressed.  That has nothing to do with the US.  The fact that Afghanistan and Iran used to be liberal and supported women's rights but now no longer do has nothing to do with the US.  It has everything to do with extremists taking over the governments in those countries and keeping their people uneducated to maintain power.  This is not the US's doing. 

I want our troops out of foreign lands as much as everyone.  But you can't just go saying this is all the US fault and we are just reaping what we sow.  That's crap.

Did we make a mistake in hiring Osama and his boys in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets.  Yes.  Does that mean 3,000 innocent people deserved to die almost 20 years later? No.  Does that make Osama Bin Laden a murderer? Yes.  Nothing Bin Laden did was justified.  He attacked innocents.  His war was against the US people.  Not even necessarily the military.  His only real attack against the military was his attack on the USS Cole. 

Osama's "war" is bullshit.  The war on terrorism is bullshit.  It's all bullshit.  But that doesn't make Osama not a perpetrator and enabler of mass murder of innocent people. 

We wouldn't be in this shit state if it weren't for 9/11.  He attacked the American public directly and caused a lot of pain.  Maybe you aren't near NYC.  Maybe you don't realize the impact fully.  I don't know.  But what happened that day was not deserved.  Don't ever think otherwise.

[antigoon]

7SB, I don't think anybody here is arguing that 3,000 innocent Americans deserve to die.

[ricky]

Stop apologizing for a mass murderer and enemy to the US.  He declared war on us.  He made himself our enemy.  He got exactly what he was asking for.

The US does not target civilians.  Terrorists (Osama) was ALL about killing civilians.  Innocent people.  People having nothing to do with his beef with America.  

Then you have to understand why. Maybe because the US government has backed corporate interests in these countries that have rendered them poor for decades,

prove it?

i refuse to believe i went half a world away for "corporate interests."

edit -it's because i didn't. when i went away when i was 19, I sure as hell didn't believe it was for corporate interests. I just don't understand why people think that's the case.

[sonatafanica]

welllllll

[jsem]

I know you take it personally. I'm sorry about that.

But really, it's the military industrial complex that makes money offa wars.

You tell me why they needa be fought in the first place. To liberate people? Then why not liberate the Saudis? Or the people of Bahrain?


Also, mildly relevant:


And no.. I don't support killing civilians, if that's what it seemed like.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Everyone needs to

These are still happy times

[ricky]

Everyone needs to

These are still happy times

+1

i respect everyone's opinion, as they truly have a right to it.

but please everybody, please stop saying that the troops are fighting for "insert here".

[jsem]

So what are they fighting for?

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.

[ricky]

So what are they fighting for?

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.

i onlly went cuz i had to (the first tour). i honestly didn't know what the hell i was fighting for then (i was 19).

my point is that i respect your opinion as to why we went

 but for people to say "the troops are fighting for "insert here" is total bs to me. to say i went for "this reason" is wrong. i just went, as most did, because we had to.

[Implode]

Ricky, what did you do while you were there? Just curious.

[ricky]

Ricky, what did you do while you were there? Just curious.

I was lucky in that i was in the 172'd infantry (google it), as I was stationed in the mountains, away from most of the action.

edit - nothing more, ok? i was just trying to be objective in my posts. i dont represent the troops. i represent nobody but myself.

 

[Ben_Jamin]

Glad you made it out alive. I support the troops, not the war.

One thought: I would be scared to be in New York, Its the most populated city, and has the most significance in our Economy.

[bosk1]

So what are they fighting for?

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.

i onlly went cuz i had to (the first tour). i honestly didn't know what the hell i was fighting for then (i was 19).

my point is that i respect your opinion as to why we went

 but for people to say "the troops are fighting for "insert here" is total bs to me. to say i went for "this reason" is wrong. i just went, as most did, because we had to.

Well, yeah, I see what you're saying.  But, still, you went because of [*insert what the mission was*].

I went to Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Iraq to liberate Kuwait.  Yeah, maybe I didn't fully comprehend or agree with the mission at the time, and maybe our Commander In Chief at the time and other leaders had other ulterior motives.  But that was the mission, and I'm fine saying that's why I went.  I was ordered to go as part of the liberating force, and I went.  Not because I necessarily compehended or agreed with the mission, but because I was ordered to.  /story

[ricky]

So what are they fighting for?

Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. At all.

i onlly went cuz i had to (the first tour). i honestly didn't know what the hell i was fighting for then (i was 19).

my point is that i respect your opinion as to why we went

 but for people to say "the troops are fighting for "insert here" is total bs to me. to say i went for "this reason" is wrong. i just went, as most did, because we had to.

Well, yeah, I see what you're saying.  But, still, you went because of [*insert what the mission was*].

I went to Saudi Arabia/Kuwait/Iraq to liberate Kuwait.  Yeah, maybe I didn't fully comprehend or agree with the mission at the time, and maybe our Commander In Chief at the time and other leaders had other ulterior motives.  But that was the mission, and I'm fine saying that's why I went.  I was ordered to go as part of the liberating force, and I went.  Not because I necessarily compehended or agreed with the mission, but because I was ordered to.  /story

exactly, bosk.

[TempusVox]

Thanks to everyone who served. Regardless of why our country entered a war, those who were serving in the armed forces of the united States went because they swore to "......support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that they (sic) would bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and that they'd (sic) obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over them...." It's one thing to question the motives of a government, but not those who serve. While sometimes the reasons might not be clear, the mission should be.

I too went to Iraq, but to meet the troops....  What an honor for me!  God Bless them all!

[emindead]

Let's stir this thing with some interesting discussion. The source of the following page comes from a really lefty ideological page. I like to read it once in a while just to feel I'm balancing my views. They sometimes write really reasonable arguments, they sometimes arrive to the right conclusion using the wrong arguments and wrong reasons... it happens. OK, let's get down to it, what do you think of this:

PREDICTED IN MARCH 2010: Staging bin Laden's 'Death'

by Enver Masud
https://globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=va&aid=24595

Global Research, May 2, 2011
The Wisdom Fund - 2010-03-25

It appears that we are being primed for the "death" of al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden.

Attorney General Eric Holder told a House panel this month [March 2010] that bin Laden "will never appear in an American courtroom."
Others who have examined the evidence, and the "bin Laden tapes," have concluded that bin Laden is dead.

US Defense Secretary Robert Gates admitted that the US has had no reliable information on the whereabouts of Osama Bin Laden in years.
But the US needs a neat ending to its war on Afghanistan.

Staging bin Laden's death will be seen as a fitting end to this genocidal war for the control of energy resources. Of course it will have to be done so that visual identification is not possible.

We suspect that when bin Laden is "killed," we'll just have to trust the folks that lied us into war to confirm they got him.
The premise doesn't sound too far fetched. However, I think that if the US Government releases the pictures -and, also, somehow prove that they are real- this theory will shatter to pieces. Until then...

[El Barto]

Give me a break.  The US is not causing these countries to be poor and run down.  Look at Saudi Arabia.  They are a rich nation yet their population is incredibly repressed.  That has nothing to do with the US.  The fact that Afghanistan and Iran used to be liberal and supported women's rights but now no longer do has nothing to do with the US.  It has everything to do with extremists taking over the governments in those countries and keeping their people uneducated to maintain power.  This is not the US's doing. 

Well, um, actually all of those have a great deal to do with us.  We've propped up the Saudi royal family for decades because they're friendly with us.  We opened the door for the Taliban to come right on in.  We created the situation that led to the Islamic revolution in Iran.  We've done a shitload to interfere in the affairs of the Middle East/Asia and I can certainly see how plenty of them wouldn't be too upset that 3000 New Yorkers got blown to bits.  This is not me saying that it was justified, as I'm opposed to the targeting of civvies, but I can see their point of view.  From their perspective, Americans elect leaders who exploit a big chunk of the world and then cover their eyes to that exploitation so they can enjoy the rewards.  Hell, I'm offended by that and I'm on the the happy side of the equation. 

[Chino]

The US has almost everything to do with it.

[7StringedBeast]

The US has almost everything to do with it.

No we don't.  We play politics.  Every country does that.  We have made bad decisions no doubt, and I agree that we shouldn't support the Saudi Royal family.  I think our relationship with Saudi Arabia is the worst.

But we aren't the ones telling these government to keep their people down.  If those gov's were good to the people there wouldn't be any problems.

But people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not.  And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones.  If you drive a car you can see that we need to deal with these people for oil.  So if you really take that much offense, and really think that we are that much at fault.  Don't ever buy gas again.

[Chino]

The US has almost everything to do with it.

No we don't.  We play politics.  Every country does that.  We have made bad decisions no doubt, and I agree that we shouldn't support the Saudi Royal family.  I think our relationship with Saudi Arabia is the worst.

But we aren't the ones telling these government to keep their people down.  If those gov's were good to the people there wouldn't be any problems.

But people seem to get real upset when we go in and start uprooting governments whether they be corrupt or not.  And unfortunately we can't just ignore the bad ones.  If you drive a car you can see that we need to deal with these people for oil.  So if you really take that much offense, and really think that we are that much at fault.  Don't ever buy gas again.

I didn't take offense to that. It is our fault. We had the technology 20 years ago to start getting automobiles off gasoline and we chose not to. That's what I get angry at. If I could ride my bike 80 miles to school and back I would.

[7StringedBeast]

Explain to me how it is the US fault that the Saudi people are oppressed.

[Super Dude]

I don't think it's the US's *fault* but we certainly don't help things much.