The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[Max Kuehnau]

They actually did if I'm not mistaken (them and Mike Keneally), must have been around 1993/1994 (shortly after Frank died very untimely)

[Setlist Scotty]

It's unlikely for me to be able to ever understand why that happened.

While we may never know for certain, the two posts quoted in CrystalStars' post here may help (as they did for her, someone who became a DT fan during the MM-era and has had some difficulty accepting the fact that MM is gone now):
https://www.dreamtheaterforums.org/boards/index.php?topic=58684.msg3079597#msg3079597

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

My wish would be for Mike for Steve Vai to call him again, since he was Steve's greatest drummer (him and Vinnie Colaiuta). One can dream. I'm eternally grateful for his service to DT, he shouldn't have been let go. It's unlikely for me to be able to ever understand why that happened.

Agree 100% with what you said.

I am a huge Steve Vai fan and always loved the MM-era drums and live energy. That is how I first heard about him (this is my favorite MM drum solo, which is absolute lunacy! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Oe8XKgOuNtk) though I never followed Mike's other work and never imagined he would be in DT one day.

I find Steve's current drummer a bit boring, though he's been there forever and I get why Steve likes him. I don't know what Mike and Steve's relationship is like now but for some reason I always got the sense they don't have much of one any longer.

As far as DT is concerned, replacing MM is a top 3 all time musical mistake in my DT book, but we'll see if I change my mind when DT16 and beyond come out.

[Max Kuehnau]

Yeah that one is what I'd consider to be a classic solo.

[Stadler]

My wish would be for Mike for Steve Vai to call him again, since he was Steve's greatest drummer (him and Vinnie Colaiuta). One can dream. I'm eternally grateful for his service to DT, he shouldn't have been let go. It's unlikely for me to be able to ever understand why that happened.

I mean this with the utmost respect, but why do you have to understand it?  It's not you, it's not your decision, it's not your band, it's not your life.  There's a lot of things in this world I don't understand, but you can wrap yourself around the axle in trying to understand it. 

At some point we have to accept that other people have agency and free will and they are allowed to make the decisions they see fit.  That's all the understanding we need.

[gborland]

I mean this with the utmost respect, but why do you have to understand it?  It's not you, it's not your decision, it's not your band, it's not your life.  There's a lot of things in this world I don't understand, but you can wrap yourself around the axle in trying to understand it. 

At some point we have to accept that other people have agency and free will and they are allowed to make the decisions they see fit.  That's all the understanding we need.

Totally this. The band made the decision they felt was in the best interest of the band. There's nothing else to understand.

[nobloodyname]

I can't speak for Max, of course, but I imagine autism might play into the need to understand for some.

[Setlist Scotty]

I can't speak for Max, of course, but I imagine autism might play into the need to understand for some.

I agree. Once Max shared that detail, it helped me to better understand some of the things he posted as well as his decision to leave this forum at the time.

[Max Kuehnau]

Yes, I'm quite sure it does (not that I'd fully know but yes)

[Adami]

Not sure I did the math correctly, but I think Jordan Ruddess was in Dream Theater longer with MM than he was with MP. Is that right?

[hefdaddy42]

Not sure I did the math correctly, but I think Jordan Ruddess was in Dream Theater longer with MM than he was with MP. Is that right?

I believe that is right.

[Max Kuehnau]

Yes. MP era Jordan was 1999-2010 (11 years) and MM era Jordan was 2010-2023 (13 years), which made MM era DT their longest serving lineup in their history (which btw was another aspect of why I was dumbfounded by MP rejoining, but that's just an aside, not a slight on anyone)

[gzarruk]

Yes it's going to take a couple years for the new/old lineup to catch up with the MM lineup in tenure.

Also, as a fun fact, Jordan has been in the band for almost the same time as MP already (around 25 years) but is in one more studio album than Mike.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

Yes. MP era Jordan was 1999-2010 (11 years) and MM era Jordan was 2010-2023 (13 years), which made MM era DT their longest serving lineup in their history (which btw was another aspect of why I was dumbfounded by MP rejoining, but that's just an aside, not a slight on anyone)

My speculation - and to be clear, this is purely speculation - is that MP rejoining the band was primarily a business decision. Not to say there weren't other factors, but if I had to pick the leader, I'd put my money there. The surge they're going to get in record sales, tour attendance, and just general relevancy will be significant, even if just for one cycle.

[nikatapi]

Yes. MP era Jordan was 1999-2010 (11 years) and MM era Jordan was 2010-2023 (13 years), which made MM era DT their longest serving lineup in their history (which btw was another aspect of why I was dumbfounded by MP rejoining, but that's just an aside, not a slight on anyone)

My speculation - and to be clear, this is purely speculation - is that MP rejoining the band was primarily a business decision. Not to say there weren't other factors, but if I had to pick the leader, I'd put my money there. The surge they're going to get in record sales, tour attendance, and just general relevancy will be significant, even if just for one cycle.

100 percent agree. And based on (some) feedback i've seen, the attendance on the last tours hasn't been so spectacular. So from a business (and age) perspective, it is a move that puts DT in another cycle of renewed interest, especially from older fans.

[Sycsa]

All the more reason they need to put out a real banger of an album. I still remember what a buzz SFAM created back in the day on various forums. I hope they'll take their time with it and really craft it into something special. I liked the last couple albums well enough, but I'm not much of a fan of the MP-style 'just go into the studio and bang the album out in a couple of weeks' approach.

[Max Kuehnau]

Neither am I (regardless of which band or artist btw) and this is one of the reasons I rarely ever go back to D/T. (nor any MP era album)

[nobloodyname]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

[Sycsa]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because he was the most vocal about working like this as if it were something to be proud of. Not just with DT, but with Sons of Apollo, too, for example. One could tell...

[ReaperKK]

Yes. MP era Jordan was 1999-2010 (11 years) and MM era Jordan was 2010-2023 (13 years), which made MM era DT their longest serving lineup in their history (which btw was another aspect of why I was dumbfounded by MP rejoining, but that's just an aside, not a slight on anyone)

It's crazy how fast that time has gone by, at least to me.

[Zydar]

What's crazy (to me) is that I became a DT fan in 2007, and MP left in 2010. That's just three years of him being in the band while I was a fan. Still it seems way longer, while the MM years just kinda flew by.

[gzarruk]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because he was the most vocal about working like this as if it were something to be proud of. Not just with DT, but with Sons of Apollo, too, for example. One could tell...

This is obviously perception and not necessarily fact, but IMO Mike took a quantity over quality approach when it came to albums, specially during his years outside of DT. He would give the impression that he thought the busier he got and the more simultaneous things he had to juggle, the better for him; and that's not always true.

[Sycsa]

What's crazy (to me) is that I became a DT fan in 2007, and MP left in 2010. That's just three years of him being in the band while I was a fan. Still it seems way longer, while the MM years just kinda flew by.

Yeah, well, my teens felt like a century, my twenties felt like a reasonable amount of time, my thirties feel like they barely started and I'm nearing the halfway point. I fully expect each decade to pass way faster than the one before. All I can hope for is to have a good time.

[Sycsa]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because he was the most vocal about working like this as if it were something to be proud of. Not just with DT, but with Sons of Apollo, too, for example. One could tell...

This is obviously perception and not necessarily fact, but IMO Mike took a quantity over quality approach when it came to albums, specially during his years outside of DT. He would give the impression that he thought the busier he got and the more simultaneous things he had to juggle, the better for him; and that's not always true.

It seems like such a waste and a misplaced effort. You spend weeks on writing the album, but proceed to devote months or even years of your life to tour that very same album. Yeah, one costs money, the other one makes money. But maybe that return on investment could be worth it, if you made a really special album. Although with the rock / metal market nowadays...

[Stadler]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because he was the most vocal about working like this as if it were something to be proud of. Not just with DT, but with Sons of Apollo, too, for example. One could tell...

This is obviously perception and not necessarily fact, but IMO Mike took a quantity over quality approach when it came to albums, specially during his years outside of DT. He would give the impression that he thought the busier he got and the more simultaneous things he had to juggle, the better for him; and that's not always true.

And yet... there are probably at least three (Flying Colors, Innocence And Danger, The Grand Experiment) maybe more (Testimony 2, The Similitude/Great Adventure)  are better - to me, my opinion - than anything DT put out post-2010. 

[Setlist Scotty]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because he was the most vocal about working like this as if it were something to be proud of. Not just with DT, but with Sons of Apollo, too, for example. One could tell...

This is obviously perception and not necessarily fact, but IMO Mike took a quantity over quality approach when it came to albums, specially during his years outside of DT. He would give the impression that he thought the busier he got and the more simultaneous things he had to juggle, the better for him; and that's not always true.

It seems like such a waste and a misplaced effort. You spend weeks on writing the album, but proceed to devote months or even years of your life to tour that very same album. Yeah, one costs money, the other one makes money. But maybe that return on investment could be worth it, if you made a really special album. Although with the rock / metal market nowadays...

While I won't disagree that the quantity over quality approach was generally how he handled things, don't forget that in general that's how MP is with things. He doesn't like to overthink things and prefers a much more spontaneous approach believing that by overthinking, more damage can be done than good. I agree that may be the case sometimes, but the opposite can also be true, too. I just hope that if he continues that mentality, that he'll help encourage the band to move past the whole "write only enough material for an album" mentality instead of following their muses to see what might develop if they keep on going.

[Max Kuehnau]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because he was the most vocal about working like this as if it were something to be proud of. Not just with DT, but with Sons of Apollo, too, for example. One could tell...

This is obviously perception and not necessarily fact, but IMO Mike took a quantity over quality approach when it came to albums, specially during his years outside of DT. He would give the impression that he thought the busier he got and the more simultaneous things he had to juggle, the better for him; and that's not always true.

And yet... there are probably at least three (Flying Colors, Innocence And Danger, The Grand Experiment) maybe more (Testimony 2, The Similitude/Great Adventure)  are better - to me, my opinion - than anything DT put out post-2010.

because they are easier to digest to you (more emotional, far less technical than MM era DT), in my case it's the very opposite that is easier to digest   Neither of which is inherently a bad thing by default.

[Stadler]

Not sure why MP alone gets so much heat for this.

As far as I'm concerned, it's because he was the most vocal about working like this as if it were something to be proud of. Not just with DT, but with Sons of Apollo, too, for example. One could tell...

This is obviously perception and not necessarily fact, but IMO Mike took a quantity over quality approach when it came to albums, specially during his years outside of DT. He would give the impression that he thought the busier he got and the more simultaneous things he had to juggle, the better for him; and that's not always true.

And yet... there are probably at least three (Flying Colors, Innocence And Danger, The Grand Experiment) maybe more (Testimony 2, The Similitude/Great Adventure)  are better - to me, my opinion - than anything DT put out post-2010.

because they are easier to digest to you (more emotional, far less technical than MM era DT), in my case it's the very opposite that is easier to digest   Neither of which is inherently a bad thing by default.

No, I get that; I'm just putting a data point out there that "banging out an album" has a bad rap around these parts. There's no guarantee that taking double the time means that this is album is twice as good.  I think there's a law of diminishing returns sometimes with studio time.

[Max Kuehnau]

I should rephrase then: Almost all the albums I love were meticulously crafted. I'm not saying it can't work otherwise, but I'm not into doing things quickly and I can't mention any album off the top of my head (that I love) that was done quickly.

[Setlist Scotty]

I'm just putting a data point out there that "banging out an album" has a bad rap around these parts.

It doesn't hurt to remember that both Awake and ToT were both written in about 3 weeks' time. While there might be some debate about the quality of ToT by a minority of fans, Awake is almost universally loved by the fan base.

[Sycsa]

I'm just putting a data point out there that "banging out an album" has a bad rap around these parts.

It doesn't hurt to remember that both Awake and ToT were both written in about 3 weeks' time. While there might be some debate about the quality of ToT by a minority of fans, Awake is almost universally loved by the fan base.

Yeah, it can be done and you can indeed catch lightning in a bottle, but typically, spending more time crafting the songs yields a better result. Of course it’s not as simple as twice the time - twice as good an album, more like twice the time - 10% better of an album. Sometimes, that extra 10% is worth going for.

That said, ToT was a sharp decline for me and marks the end of the golden age of DT. Although they put out their GOAT live album right after.

[devieira73]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vRyn9dMLVg
Drum perfection 

[gzarruk]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vRyn9dMLVg
Drum perfection 

Without trying to start another pointless and endless debate, just wanted to say I'm going to miss that.

[devieira73]

Yes, I understand. I missed MP in DT, but I'm sure I also will miss MM in DT. Let's just be happy that it happened.

[MinistroRaven]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7vRyn9dMLVg
Drum perfection 

Without trying to start another pointless and endless debate, just wanted to say I'm going to miss that.

Not me