The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[gzarruk]

Yes. I feel like his contributions were always downplayed and underrated.

Some people still believe he just replayed what JP programmed note for note on ADTOE

[Ben_Jamin]

I enjoyed that video. It made me realize how I like it's structure and it's buildups.

[Dream Team]

I'd like to believe he loves it and is supportive of his brothers! If I ever run into him I'll ask

If you run into him, he might want to exchange insurance info first before being grilled about an album he didn't play on by a band he's not in.

[Max Kuehnau]

nsane amount of detail in that instrumental section.

good innit

[hefdaddy42]

The notes he included with this Outcry video are FANTASTIC. 

He should have been doing these while he was in the band!

[Max Kuehnau]

my guess is that he intended to do that at the time but he clearly didn't (for reasons unknown to me)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The notes he included with this Outcry video are FANTASTIC.

He should have been doing these while he was in the band!

I guess he was a lot busier then but yes. It would have been helpful in many many ways.

[Progmaniac1988]

Outcry was always a personal favorite! ADTOE is by far my favorite Mangini era DT album. Love it from start to finish. I love MP but I think that's a MM era song he won't be adding to set lists lol

[MinistroRaven]

Rudess disagrees with Portnoy's statement about Mangini: "I could never say that. I would describe Portnoy's playing being very fluid, whereas Mangini can play shit nobody else can play"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/1ivnpgn/rudess_disagrees_with_portnoys_statement_about/

[emtee]

I must have missed MP's comments. No idea what JR is referring to.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

We talk about View as being the most technical but in many ways it's also ADTOE - especially between LNF and Outcry

[Pettor]

I must have missed MP's comments. No idea what JR is referring to.

Hehe, I'm also curious about this. According to the interviewer Portnoy said Mangini makes easy music sound hard? Is that what he said? If that quote were real, wouldn't the DTForums have acknowledged it? It feels like the guy misread it or something.

Mangini often played things that didn't sound hard at first, but I later realized were extremely difficult. And sometimes, I could tell right away just how hard they must be just by hearing them. Haha.

[Adami]

Hehe, I'm also curious about this. According to the interviewer Portnoy said Mangini makes easy music sound hard? Is that what he said? If that quote were real, wouldn't the DTForums have acknowledged it? It feels like the guy misread it or something.

Mangini often played things that didn't sound hard at first, but I later realized were extremely difficult. And sometimes, I could tell right away just how hard they must be just by hearing them. Haha.

He said it. Forgot where I saw it but it was a video interview I saw recently.

[TAC]

Rudess disagrees with Portnoy's statement about Mangini: "I could never say that. I would describe Portnoy's playing being very fluid, whereas Mangini can play shit nobody else can play"

https://www.reddit.com/r/Dreamtheater/comments/1ivnpgn/rudess_disagrees_with_portnoys_statement_about/

I didn't realize that was an MP quote. I must've missed that in the interview.

[Stadler]

Hehe, I'm also curious about this. According to the interviewer Portnoy said Mangini makes easy music sound hard? Is that what he said? If that quote were real, wouldn't the DTForums have acknowledged it? It feels like the guy misread it or something.

Mangini often played things that didn't sound hard at first, but I later realized were extremely difficult. And sometimes, I could tell right away just how hard they must be just by hearing them. Haha.

For what it's worth - and I have never once ever talked to Mike P. about this (I've only met him twice, and said a total of 12 words to him, haha!) - I have long said that Mike Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 37/19 time, and Mike P. has a way of making 37/19 sound like 4/4.  Not exactly the same as what Mike P. said, but it's in the ballpark.

[Mosh]

I'm glad to see JR shutting that down, I've seen that characterization before (not necessarily from Portnoy) and I feel like it's pretty reductive to both players. Mangini and Portnoy are both very capable and contributed a tremendous amount to the band. I also think each has their own moments of insane technicality and more of a groove/feel based approach as well as something in between. To try and boil it down to something as simplistic as "one makes hard parts sound easy and one makes easy parts sound hard" underestimates what each is capable of imo.

I also feel bad seeing JR being clearly baited into trying to badmouth former band members. Lame journalism.

[TAC]

For what it's worth - and I have never once ever talked to Mike P. about this (I've only met him twice, and said a total of 12 words to him, haha!) - I have long said that Mike Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 37/19 time, and Mike P. has a way of making 37/19 sound like 4/4.  Not exactly the same as what Mike P. said, but it's in the ballpark.

This does make sense though.

MP's drumming is so much easier to hook onto and ride it through the song. Mangini was a lot more challenging to follow. but I really came to appreciate his style.

[Kram]

For what it's worth - and I have never once ever talked to Mike P. about this (I've only met him twice, and said a total of 12 words to him, haha!) - I have long said that Mike Mangini has a way of making 4/4 sound like 37/19 time, and Mike P. has a way of making 37/19 sound like 4/4.  Not exactly the same as what Mike P. said, but it's in the ballpark.

I remember you said that awhile ago.  And yes, it's in the same ballpark.  I think it comes down to what Jordan said - Portnoy's playing is very "fluid".  That fluidity is what makes odd times sound not so odd IMO.

[Stadler]

I'm glad to see JR shutting that down, I've seen that characterization before (not necessarily from Portnoy) and I feel like it's pretty reductive to both players. Mangini and Portnoy are both very capable and contributed a tremendous amount to the band. I also think each has their own moments of insane technicality and more of a groove/feel based approach as well as something in between. To try and boil it down to something as simplistic as "one makes hard parts sound easy and one makes easy parts sound hard" underestimates what each is capable of imo.

I also feel bad seeing JR being clearly baited into trying to badmouth former band members. Lame journalism.

I see what you mean, but it's only reductive if it's judgmental and taken for something it's not. I like and respect both.  There's no judgement there, and I have no need to tear either one down; it's possible that they are both great.   FOR ME, MY TASTES ONLY, I prefer Portnoy, simply because I prefer a more melodic type of music, and that fluidity we're now focusing on lends itself to that. Not to say that none of the music Mangini played on is melodic, or that all of Portnoy's is; the world isn't black and white, all or nothing.  I'm just talking about as a general rule for me.

[emtee]

I think the more accurate description, for me at least, is MM made extremely difficult music seem impossible for the average drummer to understand or be able to replicate. MP makes extremely difficult music more accessible and, while still technical, offers the average drummer a chance to replicate 80% of his playing. Both are world class.

[Max Kuehnau]

We talk about View as being the most technical but in many ways it's also ADTOE - especially between LNF and Outcry

It is. View is their most (obviously) technical album yes. Dramatic Turn is very technical too (and you are right to mention these pieces), but View is such an onslaught of technicality that there is almost no room to breathe. (just goes brrrr almost constantly if you get the idea) That's one difference. And then keep this in mind: DT12 upped the level from Dramatic Turn (more multifactor polys, more intricate limb work and so on and so on) and then View upped the level from DT12 *again*. See where I'm going with this?
(and then The Astonishing is insanely technical and difficult in its own way, although less so than DT12 and View (concerning those bits that are obviously technical) and technical and difficult for those parts that are not obvious if you see what I mean, but that's an aside, not a slight on the album)

[TAC]

I've always said that MP inspires me to pick up my drum sticks and MM inspires me to put them back down.

[Max Kuehnau]

I see what you mean  , but he has always been hugely inspirational to me for various reasons and will always be. One thing I always say though: if I were to be on that level where I can get some people to stop playing, then that's an acheivement. Or in other words: Most of my heroes (MM included, very much so) did get some people to stop playing their instrument. That will never happen in my case (boils down to my personal dedication I guess, and my (hopefully humble) love for the instrument.

[macneil]

I also feel bad seeing JR being clearly baited into trying to badmouth former band members. Lame journalism.

Yeah classy response from JR, I feel like the interviewer was trying to get a response from him to stir up drama. Asking to comment on another band member's out of context quote comparing to a former band member is not really a fair question.

[MinistroRaven]

I must have missed MP's comments. No idea what JR is referring to.

From the 8:00 minute mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMaqIv_zr8Q&t

[Mosh]

I see what you mean, but it's only reductive if it's judgmental and taken for something it's not. I like and respect both.  There's no judgement there, and I have no need to tear either one down; it's possible that they are both great.   FOR ME, MY TASTES ONLY, I prefer Portnoy, simply because I prefer a more melodic type of music, and that fluidity we're now focusing on lends itself to that. Not to say that none of the music Mangini played on is melodic, or that all of Portnoy's is; the world isn't black and white, all or nothing.  I'm just talking about as a general rule for me.

Yea, I mean I prefer Portnoy too for many of the same reasons. I just think both are able to work in both styles more than they're given credit for.

It's weird, before he left DT I feel like outside of hardcore prog circles Portnoy was largely seen as the gold standard of drumming (also the media narrative of "next Neil Peart" and all that). Then he left DT and ended up doing stuff like A7X, AMob, Twisted Sister, things that didn't really show off his technical expertise as much, even his proggy projects with Morse were pulled back compared to DT.

Meanwhile if you look at Mangini's career, he's doing work with Extreme/Nuno and Annihilator, not exactly overly technical projects. Extreme is one of the grooviest bands on the planet and Mangini was a good fit at the time for them. But then he joins DT and pulls them into a more technical direction.

I know I'm oversimplifying their respective careers here, but I do think the perception of these two drummers shifted a little bit due to Mangini's time in the band. As inhuman as a lot of his playing is, for every Three Days there's an Enemy Inside or Untethered Angel where he's just rocking out. And on Portnoy's side, songs like Dance of Eternity, 6:00, Metropolis still remain gold standards for technical drumming. Idk Mangini is definitely a more technical player but I think they are on more equal ground than they get credit for, in both directions.

[gzarruk]

Mike M had a stint with Vai and that already showed some of his technical prowess before joining DT.

It's funny that DT gets a pass with someone like Jordan, who's literally as technical as a player (and sometimes an overplaying champion) as you'll find in the genere, yet Mangini joined and suddenly things were "too technical" for some fans' taste.

Mike P definitely deserves all the recognition he got in the early days and he surely was the poster boy for technical progressive drumming back in the day, but then the scene changed and things got a lot more intricate and complex drumming-wise in the genere and he suddenly went from technical champion to "I'm just a feel guy". Like I said, he deserves the praise he got back then, but now it seems like he's been just resting in his laurels for the last decade +. (IMO)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Yea, I mean I prefer Portnoy too for many of the same reasons. I just think both are able to work in both styles more than they're given credit for.

It's weird, before he left DT I feel like outside of hardcore prog circles Portnoy was largely seen as the gold standard of drumming (also the media narrative of "next Neil Peart" and all that). Then he left DT and ended up doing stuff like A7X, AMob, Twisted Sister, things that didn't really show off his technical expertise as much, even his proggy projects with Morse were pulled back compared to DT.

Meanwhile if you look at Mangini's career, he's doing work with Extreme/Nuno and Annihilator, not exactly overly technical projects. Extreme is one of the grooviest bands on the planet and Mangini was a good fit at the time for them. But then he joins DT and pulls them into a more technical direction.

I know I'm oversimplifying their respective careers here, but I do think the perception of these two drummers shifted a little bit due to Mangini's time in the band. As inhuman as a lot of his playing is, for every Three Days there's an Enemy Inside or Untethered Angel where he's just rocking out. And on Portnoy's side, songs like Dance of Eternity, 6:00, Metropolis still remain gold standards for technical drumming. Idk Mangini is definitely a more technical player but I think they are on more equal ground than they get credit for, in both directions.

I think you're absolutely right that before he left - particularly in the early 2000s- MP was seen as the gold standard in many ways. The opinion of him seems to have changed over time and I do wonder how much of that has to do with the expansion of the internet and YouTube. Those things brought so many other drummers into new living rooms - drummers who were in famous acts or the faces of them. They also allowed us all to endless scrutinize players whereas in the past you had to see them live or recorded on dvd.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

It is. View is their most (obviously) technical album yes. Dramatic Turn is very technical too (and you are right to mention these pieces), but View is such an onslaught of technicality that there is almost no room to breathe. (just goes brrrr almost constantly if you get the idea) That's one difference. And then keep this in mind: DT12 upped the level from Dramatic Turn (more multifactor polys, more intricate limb work and so on and so on) and then View upped the level from DT12 *again*. See where I'm going with this?
(and then The Astonishing is insanely technical and difficult in its own way, although less so than DT12 and View (concerning those bits that are obviously technical) and technical and difficult for those parts that are not obvious if you see what I mean, but that's an aside, not a slight on the album)

For sure. Between TA, ATM and the title track View stands out. Thinking about guitar specifically I do think JPs parts are a bit more accessible on it whereas I'd probably really struggle with something like LNF.

[Kyo]

Mike P definitely deserves all the recognition he got in the early days and he surely was the poster boy for technical progressive drumming back in the day, but then the scene changed and things got a lot more intricate and complex drumming-wise in the genere and he suddenly went from technical champion to "I'm just a feel guy". Like I said, he deserves the praise he got back then, but now it seems like he's been just resting in his laurels for the last decade +. (IMO)

I mean, you don't even need Mangini's playing as a point of reference. Just watching the latest Drumeo video, you have older material like Metropolis and Home in there. Compared to those, his drumming on the new tracks they cover seems really basic for looooong stretches. Lots of slow double bass with a backbeat or the snare on every quarter note, not a whole lot of sections that make you go "now that's creative!". And sure, Midnight Messiah was meant to be the metal single, so its bound to be on the simpler side. But they said at the time that they considered Night Terror some "red meat" they wanted to throw to the prog metal fans as a first taste of the album and that one has plenty of quite basic metal drumming in it as well. It may well work just fine for the song, but it's not very interesting to watch. It's pretty obvious the creativity level was higher on the older songs.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Mike M had a stint with Vai and that already showed some of his technical prowess before joining DT.

It's funny that DT gets a pass with someone like Jordan, who's literally as technical as a player (and sometimes an overplaying champion) as you'll find in the genere, yet Mangini joined and suddenly things were "too technical" for some fans' taste.

Mike P definitely deserves all the recognition he got in the early days and he surely was the poster boy for technical progressive drumming back in the day, but then the scene changed and things got a lot more intricate and complex drumming-wise in the genere and he suddenly went from technical champion to "I'm just a feel guy". Like I said, he deserves the praise he got back then, but now it seems like he's been just resting in his laurels for the last decade +. (IMO)

I certainly don't recall him ever saying he is a feel guy back then. Many things have changed indeed.

[Mladen]

Mike P definitely deserves all the recognition he got in the early days and he surely was the poster boy for technical progressive drumming back in the day, but then the scene changed and things got a lot more intricate and complex drumming-wise in the genere and he suddenly went from technical champion to "I'm just a feel guy". Like I said, he deserves the praise he got back then, but now it seems like he's been just resting in his laurels for the last decade +. (IMO)

I've been thinking about this for a while now and you nailed it in my opinion with the bolded part. Once you get to your fifties and are surrounded by the likes of Haken, Protest the hero, Animals as leaders or whoever the big deal in the technical progressive metal nowadays is, you sort of step back and realize there's no competing. You just do you.

[MoraWintersoul]

It's funny that DT gets a pass with someone like Jordan, who's literally as technical as a player (and sometimes an overplaying champion) as you'll find in the genere, yet Mangini joined and suddenly things were "too technical" for some fans' taste.

One aspect of this probably is due to the fact that DT has a subset of fans who criticize because they want the band/the band members to hear the critique and change. Jordan always got his share of critique for being too technical, but these particular fans never quite latched onto critiquing him the way they did with JLB and MM later because he doesn't give off the vibe that anyone can tell him anything about his playing, and because it was clear Jordan was the player DT wanted all along so they wouldn't listen to people calling for him to be replaced or reigned in.

Whereas Mike replaced a founding member, was very new, the perception was that the drum parts were solely written by JP, so those fans thought they could get their claws in early and make the band change course somewhat into something resembling MP's parts more. And then, when that storm passed, it became clear that MM reads everything and is very aware of all the feedback, and then they would never let him go. Throughout his tenure in DT, he always gave the vibe of insecurity with his standing with fans and critics, sometimes painfully so, which is exactly what this subset of fans sensed as well.

[KevShmev]

I certainly don't recall him ever saying he is a feel guy back then. Many things have changed indeed.

Right. I think Mike P. has realized that he cannot compete with Mangini and others when it comes to the crazy technical stuff, so he has repeatedly referred to himself now as a feel drummer, almost like he is the drumming version of David Gilmour (while making Mangini Yngwie Malmsteen perhaps), which is pretty wild considering that Portnoy is probably still in the top 5-10% of all rock/metal drummers when it comes to technical skills.  And to be clear, Portnoy does have good feel when he plays, but he is also technically proficient as well (even if less so than years past).

[JediKnight1969]

Portnoy said: "Mangini makes easy music sound hard."

Actually, this is what HE does. IMHO.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference