The Mike Mangini Thread (Thanks & Farewell)

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If Dream Theater were to make a MM era compilation (which they're never going to do) what 10-15 songs would you put on it? What's the best way to think about it - 15 or so songs or 90m etc?

Here's mine.

Side 1

1. The Alien
2. Breaking All Illusions
3. Barstool Warrior
4. The Gift of Music
5. Outcry
6. Answering the Call
7. Illumination Theory

Side 2

8. On the Backs of Angels
9. Transcending Time
10. Enigma Machine
11. Out of Reach
12. The Enemy Inside
13. Pale Blue Dot
14. Lost Not Forgotten
15. A View From the Top of the World

[emtee]

That is one hell of a grouping of songs. Love every one of them.

[Parasomnia]

I just wish they treated him as a band member rather than as a replacement drummer for Portnoy. He did some good stuff on those albums but it's hard not to see it as "Dream Theater featuring Mike Mangini" from their end, when he should've been fully incorporated into the band (like Rudess did after joining) in the songwriter sense. It's one of those things that is their fault rather than Mangini's, they could've been way more tighter with him and made far more organic sounding stuff as a result. I do love ADTOE, DoT and AVFTTOTW tho, despite Mangini not being fully utilised. Even Sherinian seemed to get a better place in the band respectively even tho his stay was so short.

[TAC]

Even Sherinian seemed to get a better place in the band respectively even tho his stay was so short.

Maybe they learned their lesson. 


On your main point I kind of agree. It's hard to tell though how the dynamics really went. Mike was IMO too respectful of not stepping on anyone's toes. I'm sure giving him the boot was a difficult thing for them to do, but they did do it.

At the end of the day, he was the closest they were going to get to being one of "them", but in the end, he wasn't one of "them".

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I just wish they treated him as a band member rather than as a replacement drummer for Portnoy. He did some good stuff on those albums but it's hard not to see it as "Dream Theater featuring Mike Mangini" from their end, when he should've been fully incorporated into the band (like Rudess did after joining) in the songwriter sense. It's one of those things that is their fault rather than Mangini's, they could've been way more tighter with him and made far more organic sounding stuff as a result. I do love ADTOE, DoT and AVFTTOTW tho, despite Mangini not being fully utilised. Even Sherinian seemed to get a better place in the band respectively even tho his stay was so short.

I think it's a commentary on the limitations of John Petruccis leadership at the end of the day.

The most salient and recent example sticks in my mind. He told Mangini to slim his kit down (despite the fact that it's relatively compact) yet first day back Portnoy brings in the hydra and you know he didn't tell Mike P to slim anything down. I know he didn't mean it in a bad way but it was the Final Act (that we know about) that shows a totally lopsided power dynamic. If you're a permanent member that's been carrying your weight you don't get told what gear you can play. Imagine someone telling John you can only have so many Majestys in the studio, smh.

[TAC]

I think it's a commentary on the limitations of John Petruccis leadership at the end of the day.

YES! The decline in DT's popularity in the Mangini Era was NOT due to the albums they made.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Yup. There are other things too that were just odd in my book. This is coming from someone who idolizes John as a guitarist. It's almost like he was overprotective of his baby but in doing that - who knows - maybe by the time you get to the end of DreamSonic it's actually HIS decisions that didn't yield the success he needed for the band.

[Setlist Scotty]

I just wish they treated him as a band member rather than as a replacement drummer for Portnoy. He did some good stuff on those albums but it's hard not to see it as "Dream Theater featuring Mike Mangini" from their end, when he should've been fully incorporated into the band (like Rudess did after joining) in the songwriter sense. It's one of those things that is their fault rather than Mangini's, they could've been way more tighter with him and made far more organic sounding stuff as a result. I do love ADTOE, DoT and AVFTTOTW tho, despite Mangini not being fully utilised. Even Sherinian seemed to get a better place in the band respectively even tho his stay was so short.

Well, in the band's defense, MM was fully involved with 3 of the 5 albums. He wasn't for ADToE because he was the new guy and the rest of the band wanted to regroup slowly and carefully with MP's loss - completely understandable. Then MM, JM and JL were all excluded from putting together TA, which makes sense to some extent, but I wonder if it would have been better if the other 3 guys (and an outside producer) could have been involved instead of it basically being a JP pet project. In any case, the other 3 albums that MM was involved in are all very respectable within the DT catalog. Only issue with most of them is MM's drum sound which is disappointing since MP's drum sound was never an issue - why they couldn't have continued on in the same direction for the drums in the mix as when MP was in the band, I don't know.
 
 

The most salient and recent example sticks in my mind. He told Mangini to slim his kit down (despite the fact that it's relatively compact) yet first day back Portnoy brings in the hydra and you know he didn't tell Mike P to slim anything down. I know he didn't mean it in a bad way but it was the Final Act (that we know about) that shows a totally lopsided power dynamic. If you're a permanent member that's been carrying your weight you don't get told what gear you can play. Imagine someone telling John you can only have so many Majestys in the studio, smh.

In all fairness though, I think they all knew it was an absolute given that with MP's return, they were gonna be a bigger ticket draw - at least initially - warranting MP being able to resurrect his Siamese and Black Clouds monsters. Let's not forget that for the first three tours MM did with DT, he had a pretty massive kit as well with 4 kick drums. It was only starting with The Astonishing tour that he started to shrink the size of the kit. Let's see if MP continues with massive kits on the following tours.
 
 

YES! The decline in DT's popularity in the Mangini Era was NOT due to the albums they made.

Well I'd agree with that for *most* of their albums. I do think TA did cause them to lose some popularity, which would help explain why they were keen to capitalize on the 25th anniversary of IaW in 2017, and follow that up with the 20th anniversary of SFaM in 2019-2020. Had they done another "normal" DT album that wouldn't have been anywhere near as divisive as TA, I don't know if they would have been as quick to focus on a pair of back-to-back anniversary tours like they did to try to get some of those fans back again.

[TAC]

Well I'd agree with that for *most* of their albums. I do think TA did cause them to lose some popularity, which would help explain why they were keen to capitalize on the 25th anniversary of IaW in 2017, and follow that up with the 20th anniversary of SFaM in 2019-2020. Had they done another "normal" DT album that wouldn't have been anywhere near as divisive as TA, I don't know if they would have been as quick to focus on a pair of back-to-back anniversary tours like they did.

The TA was pretty divisive. Sure. It's hard to generalize everyone's motivations for losing interest. I know what moved my needle, as we've talked about a number of times.

I guess I underestimated the hold that MP had on people.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Well, in the band's defense, MM was fully involved with 3 of the 5 albums. He wasn't for ADToE because he was the new guy and the rest of the band wanted to regroup slowly and carefully with MP's loss - completely understandable. Then MM, JM and JL were all excluded from putting together TA, which makes sense to some extent, but I wonder if it would have been better if the other 3 guys (and an outside producer) could have been involved instead of it basically being a JP pet project. In any case, the other 3 albums that MM was involved in are all very respectable within the DT catalog. Only issue with most of them is MM's drum sound which is disappointing since MP's drum sound was never an issue - why they couldn't have continued on in the same direction for the drums in the mix as when MP was in the band, I don't know.
 
 In all fairness though, I think they all knew it was an absolute given that with MP's return, they were gonna be a bigger ticket draw - at least initially - warranting MP being able to resurrect his Siamese and Black Clouds monsters. Let's not forget that for the first three tours MM did with DT, he had a pretty massive kit as well with 4 kick drums. It was only starting with The Astonishing tour that he started to shrink the size of the kit. Let's see if MP continues with massive kits on the following tours.
 
 Well I'd agree with that for *most* of their albums. I do think TA did cause them to lose some popularity, which would help explain why they were keen to capitalize on the 25th anniversary of IaW in 2017, and follow that up with the 20th anniversary of SFaM in 2019-2020. Had they done another "normal" DT album that wouldn't have been anywhere near as divisive as TA, I don't know if they would have been as quick to focus on a pair of back-to-back anniversary tours like they did to try to get some of those fans back again.

Sure but the fact remains John told him to slim it down on the last album and the next one Mike resurrects the Siamese monster. It's hard to imagine any universe in any period of the bands history where JP tells MP what size gear he can play. Manginis kit is actually more compact that Portnoy if I'm not mistaken but yeah I am just not seeing Mike P having any of it if JP tells him how many drums he can bring into DTHQ.

End of the day, and I said this the day MM was replaced, if you look at all the things fans were upset about where we agree something has definitely changed (JLB performances, the click, lack of fan engagement except when promoting signature products, set list construction) none of that was Mangini's call to make, thus it defaults to the guy with the authority to make those calls.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

The most underrated Mangini era song?! The Bigger Picture...I'm listening to this beauty right now. Love the section beginning 3:27. As John's solo progresses you hear Mangini gradually add layers to what starts out as a very simple beat with few fills.

[TAC]

The most underrated Mangini era song?! The Bigger Picture...I'm listening to this beauty right now. Love the section beginning 3:27. As John's solo progresses you hear Mangini gradually add layers to what starts out as a very simple beat with few fills.

It's a great song!

[macneil]

I'm glad Mangini was able to at least get a  chance to shine especially on the last couple albums. The Alien, the View title track and Pale Blue Dot are Mangini's 3 finest moments with DT, IMO. Absolutely phenomenal drumming, and some of my favourite tracks from that era. Anyone have any favourite Mangini songs or moments?

The most underrated Mangini era song?! The Bigger Picture...I'm listening to this beauty right now. Love the section beginning 3:27. As John's solo progresses you hear Mangini gradually add layers to what starts out as a very simple beat with few fills.

Love that part! Such a good song (I think the self - titled in general is better than is often given credit for).

[Setlist Scotty]

Sure but the fact remains John told him to slim it down on the last album and the next one Mike resurrects the Siamese monster. It's hard to imagine any universe in any period of the bands history where JP tells MP what size gear he can play. Manginis kit is actually more compact that Portnoy if I'm not mistaken but yeah I am just not seeing Mike P having any of it if JP tells him how many drums he can bring into DTHQ.

To the DTHQ it doesn't matter, especially since it was expanded between the time that they worked on the last album and the new one. It has much more room to accommodate MP's drum kit(s). The key will be on the upcoming tour. But given MP's willingness now that he's the "new guy" this would be the perfect opportunity for JP to suggest MP keep his drum kit a bit smaller than the Siamese monster - I could totally envision him doing so if he thought it necessary.
 
 

End of the day, and I said this the day MM was replaced, if you look at all the things fans were upset about where we agree something has definitely changed (JLB performances, the click, lack of fan engagement except when promoting signature products, set list construction) none of that was Mangini's call to make, thus it defaults to the guy with the authority to make those calls.

No argument there. MM was always going to be the "new guy" and especially having replaced someone as influential as MP was in the band, he would never have the same authority; I'd argue that had JM been replaced instead, there'd be little difference between JM and his hypothetical replacement in terms of authority within the group.

That all said, it sounds like JP is now recognizing many of the things that made the band unique and appealing with MP at the helm, so a lot of those things should return at some point and time. Check out the interview link I posted in a new thread. 

[Awaken]

The most underrated Mangini era song?! The Bigger Picture...I'm listening to this beauty right now. Love the section beginning 3:27. As John's solo progresses you hear Mangini gradually add layers to what starts out as a very simple beat with few fills.

It's near the top of my favorite list for the MM era, paired w This Is The Life.  I REALLY hope the two of these MM-era songs continue to see time in future setlists. 

[Max Kuehnau]

The most underrated Mangini era song?! The Bigger Picture...I'm listening to this beauty right now. Love the section beginning 3:27. As John's solo progresses you hear Mangini gradually add layers to what starts out as a very simple beat with few fills.

I heard them play it during my final ever DT show on the I/W 2.0 tour (as I like to call it) in 2017. Brilliant. (without knowing it would be my final DT show at the time of course)

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

I heard them play it during my final ever DT show on the I/W 2.0 tour (as I like to call it) in 2017. Brilliant. (without knowing it would be my final DT show at the time of course)

How do you know it will be your last DT show? Do the boys not come to Germany anymore?

[Max Kuehnau]

they do (which btw, Germany is a massive market for them and has always been, so it would be pointless for them not to visit), but I don't ever choose to go see them with MP again, (because I don't want or need to) and besides, I had to skip no less than 3 MM era tours (in 2012, 2020 and 2022, although I would have wanted to see two of these three) and 3 MP era tours during his first run (2005-2009, didn't want to see these, but you get the ieda), all for health reasons, so even if I would have wanted to see them this year and next year, I couldn't estimate if I were able to physically. Too risky for me for that reason alone. Of course, if anyone here will attend this upcoming tour (or indeed any future DT tour), enjoy.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

they do (which btw, Germany is a massive market for them and has always been, so it would be pointless for them not to visit), but I don't ever choose to go see them with MP again, (because I don't want or need to) and besides, I had to skip no less than 3 MM era tours (in 2012, 2020 and 2022, although I would have wanted to see two of these three) and 3 MP era tours during his first run (2005-2009, didn't want to see these, but you get the ieda), all for health reasons, so even if I would have wanted to see them this year and next year, I couldn't estimate if I were able to physically. Too risky for me for that reason alone. Of course, if anyone here will attend this upcoming tour (or indeed any future DT tour), enjoy.

Gotcha, glad you have come to terms with it and know yourself. Cheers!

[hefdaddy42]

If memory serves, Mangini's kit was only scaled down for overseas touring logistics.  Isn't that right?

And for that matter, I'm pretty sure that Portnoy did the same thing on one of the tours.  Maybe the Octavarium tour?  That kit was a double bass kit plus a single bass kit (basically), and it seems like for at least one overseas leg of the tour he went with just a double bass kit.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

If memory serves, Mangini's kit was only scaled down for overseas touring logistics.  Isn't that right?

And for that matter, I'm pretty sure that Portnoy did the same thing on one of the tours.  Maybe the Octavarium tour?  That kit was a double bass kit plus a single bass kit (basically), and it seems like for at least one overseas leg of the tour he went with just a double bass kit.

Not sure. I think maybe it had to do with space in DTHQ, which is evidently not an issue any longer. I know that in one of his interviews, Mike said JP asked him to do it but I can't remember the specific reason.

[Max Kuehnau]

If memory serves, Mangini's kit was only scaled down for overseas touring logistics.  Isn't that right?

And for that matter, I'm pretty sure that Portnoy did the same thing on one of the tours.  Maybe the Octavarium tour?  That kit was a double bass kit plus a single bass kit (basically), and it seems like for at least one overseas leg of the tour he went with just a double bass kit.

MM had a scaled down setup for all the legs of the D/T and View tours, oh and: Him scaling down his setups started with the tour for The Astonishing already btw.

[Setlist Scotty]

If memory serves, Mangini's kit was only scaled down for overseas touring logistics.  Isn't that right?

And for that matter, I'm pretty sure that Portnoy did the same thing on one of the tours.  Maybe the Octavarium tour?  That kit was a double bass kit plus a single bass kit (basically), and it seems like for at least one overseas leg of the tour he went with just a double bass kit.

Not sure about MM's kit, but I would imagine, especially with the last album/tour cycle, it was for touring logistics in general. That said, transporting stuff overseas was probably a major cost factor as opposed to stuff taking up a bit more room in one of the semi trucks.

As for MP's kits, yes, he did have a smaller size kit when touring South America in 2005, and I believe both to South America and Oceania in 2007/2008. Can't remember if it was full size in 2009 for those territories or not, but I tend to think not. But it wasn't just MP. All the band members took their "B-rigs" for those territories on those tours.

Not sure. I think maybe it had to do with space in DTHQ, which is evidently not an issue any longer. I know that in one of his interviews, Mike said JP asked him to do it but I can't remember the specific reason.

The studio was definitely smaller back then, so it makes sense to have the smaller kit, but while I don't think it was ever explicitly stated, I'm pretty sure it was more to do with the transportation costs of the tour than anything else. By having him use the same smaller kit in the studio, it probably helped him get much more use to it so that it wouldn't be an issue on the road.

[hefdaddy42]

I'm certain that he wasn't asked to reduce the size of his kit because JP is a meanie who hates big drum kits.  That's simply NOT what happened.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

I'm certain that he wasn't asked to reduce the size of his kit because JP is a meanie who hates big drum kits.  That's simply NOT what happened.

Of course not. I wasn't implying that. But I do think it's evidence of an opposite power dynamic.

[hefdaddy42]

Of course not. I wasn't implying that. But I do think it's evidence of an opposite power dynamic.

Only insofar as JP was the "money guy" in the band (and always has been).  If it had to do with logistics on tour (which is what I recall), then that is about money in the band member's pockets.  

Not an opposite power dynamic of "I'm JP and you're not, so do what I say".

That's the way that I see it.  And I am a big Mangini fan.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Only insofar as JP was the "money guy" in the band (and always has been).  If it had to do with logistics on tour (which is what I recall), then that is about money in the band member's pockets. 

Not an opposite power dynamic of "I'm JP and you're not, so do what I say".

That's the way that I see it.  And I am a big Mangini fan.

Sure. I just really can't see him ordering MP to do that regardless of the reason. That's all I meant.

[Setlist Scotty]

Sure. I just really can't see him ordering MP to do that regardless of the reason. That's all I meant.

Before MP left the band, you'd be right. But with MP just returning to the band, there's a different balance of power, so I think it's totally feasible if JP really felt it important regarding touring costs.

[Nachtmerrie]

YES! The decline in DT's popularity in the Mangini Era was NOT due to the albums they made.

I think it was (or is) for a variety of reasons and the albums are also of them. They did the I&W and SFAM tours for a reason because there seems to be a bunch of fans that consider that period Peak DT.

Combine that with the JLB live-issues and rising ticketprices and there you have the decline.
And yes, management is also an important part considering the amount of fans that really missed MP and the fan engagement he brings with him.

[TheHoveringSojourn808]

One way to think about it is this:

What if DT never replaced Charlie Dominici with James LaBrie? Sure Mike Mango might be the best drummer ever, but reuniting the classic lineup that wrote Prog Metal classics that generations of humanity will regard highly, to me, is similar to that pivotal moment when they chose the Canadian Pirate to front them.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

Posted today: Dystopian Overture Orchestration & Timing

https://www.instagram.com/mikemanginiofficial/reel/DBHs-w2hek3/?hl=en

"2024 is a year for me to finish a lot of educational products. I promised that I'd post more playing vids. This is my focus. I often do not get to song learning and memorization in the classes. I'm building an incredible video resource for interested people for November release. My large kit is a mini orchestra and it's so much fun to play, but tough to reach the right drum/cymbal sometimes. It was more difficult however to make every note land where it was supposed to go as to reflect this story seen in non stop video for hours every night, but I found a joy in that challenge and it's a nice memory to see it used with this great music."

[nikatapi]

This is the stuff i would have loved to see MM posting more frequently during his tenure in DT.

[TheBarstoolWarrior]

This is the stuff i would have loved to see MM posting more frequently during his tenure in DT.

Completely agree. There was some of it but would have loved if he done more earlier. I guess he has more time now.

[Max Kuehnau]

yes, he does, as he mentioned here and there

[Stadler]

I think it's a commentary on the limitations of John Petruccis leadership at the end of the day.

Ironically, to me, for all the rah-rah for Mangini, and how he was underutilized and all that (don't agree, by the way) the leadership question is probably the best argument FOR Portnoy to return. I've been saying since 2012 that "locker room", the interaction of the players, is important and not something that can be assessed by those not also in the "locker room".  There's no mystery that not everyone can do every thing, and not everyone performs to the same level regardless of who is around them.

None of this is to say John is "incapable", that's not it. But there's a dynamic. It could be as simple as the "confidence" of knowing you have someone as capable at your back, or it could be as intricate as the actual input.

It's really interesting to listen to the "absolutism" that so many have about dynamic things like interpersonal interactions, especially over the years.  You - we - have NO IDEA what was going through anyone's head - especially John's.  Things DO evolve over time.  I love my wife.  LOVE her. We're solid, we're great together, but there are things I don't go to her for.  I just don't.  I might ask her input at the start, but if I know it's one of those things that she'll spin around the axle on, I'll just go do it.  Conversely, I know there are things I just don't do because I KNOW she wants a level of involvement that I can't deliver on.  I can ABSOLUTELY see, over 10 years time, having an opinion that "we have to limit Mike Mangini's drums; it will be a rabbit hole we'll never get out of if we don't."  Or "I'd love to have more involvement from our drummer, but I can't get into a "should it be 17/16 or 35/32 time?" discussion every single song."  This is all speculation, I get it, like everyone else, and NONE of this is a dig on Mike Mangini.  AT ALL.  It's about fit.  Anyone ever date someone that you thought was physical perfection, but for whatever reason there just wasn't the same spark as that person you're carrying a torch for (and have since high school)? 

I could go on.  My step son; I love him dearly, like a son, but he's on the spectrum and I have to serve his plates because his "portion control" switch isn't where it should be. We're working on it, but whereas I can do family style dinners with everyone else, we have to take a different approach to my step son. It just is what it is. Doesn't mean he's not a great kid or I don't love him. It's the practicality of the day-to-day.