"Birther" bill passes in Arizona legislature

[El Barto]

https://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20054236-503544.html

Both the Arizona House and Senate yesterday passed a bill requiring U.S. presidential candidates to prove their citizenship in order to get on the state ballot, making the Arizona legislature the first in the nation to approve "birther" legislation.
...Yet supporters of the measure said it is not about Mr. Obama specifically.

Seriously, is there any way we can start proceedings to expel Arizona from the Republic?  We could annex The Bahamas, or one of the groovier parts of Canada or something so that we wouldn't have to redo the American flag with 49 stars. 

[GuineaPig]

Puerto Rico, this is your chance!

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Arizona is so fucked up

[Orbert]

One of my best friends is a staunch Republican but otherwise rather intelligent, and he's in the "birther" camp.  He stills believes that President Obama is not the legitimate president because he's not a U.S. citizen.  Tell him that Obama was born in Hawaii, and he asks why no one has seen the birth certificate.  Tell him that many, many people have seen it, and he says that they're just saying that.  Tell him that the State of Hawaii actually issued a fucking public statement that they have a legitimate birth certificate on file, and he says it's fake and they're all in on it.

Fucking moron.  As I said, he's otherwise an intelligent guy, but when it comes to politics, someone dipped him in blue paint when he was young and he's been blind ever since.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

If you showed him the birth certificate would he say it's been doctored?

[rumborak]

It's just so weak to cling to a technicality of the Constitution while the elephant in the room, the fact that Obama was elected by a clear majority of the population, is painfully ignored.

rumborak

[7StringedBeast]

I'm not saying Obama wasn't born here, but that law is not just some technicality.  It would not matter how many people voted for the person if they were not born in the US.  It's our law.  It is a requirement.  This is why Arnie boy can never run for president.  We all know it and accept that.  So if Obama wasn't born here ( I know he was I'm not arguing that) he would absolutely be holding the presidency in error.

[Orbert]

If you showed him the birth certificate would he say it's been doctored?

Absolutely.  He believes that the president was not born in the U.S. and there is simply nothing that anyone can say or do that will convince him otherwise.  It's fake, it's been doctored, something.

There's a reason why Politics and Religion have their own subforum here, and are the two topics traditionally avoided if you want to keep things relatively sane and polite.  They are the two areas where otherwise intelligent people dig in their heels, and tend to blindly follow what they believe and/or what they've always been told, logic and reason be damned.

Don't get me wrong.  I actually enjoy intelligent debate on most any subject, and most people can actually do that.  But some people will simply not move from their positions, in the face of overwhelming evidence and what others consider rock-solid logic and reason.

[El Barto]

While it wouldn't be hard to fake a birth certificate, the biggest stumbling block is the two Hawaii newspapers that ran notices of his birth way back when.  To quote Bill O'Reilly, what is he then, Baby Jesus?

O'Reilly also pointed out the other, single best argument.  If there was even a whiff of impropriety, Hillary would have found it out and beat him to death with it.  It's an interesting aspect of our electoral system that one's own party gets the first crack at eviscerating him.  So if a person is actually a Manchurian candidate, brainwashed by the VC, and the father of an illegitimate black child, then he gets outed long before the mudslinging starts.

[Orbert]

Man, those are two points I hadn't even thought of.  Which is why I enjoy a decent political debate, but would never claim to be any good at it.

Still, if I were to ask Doug (that's his name) what about the original birth announcements from the papers when Obama was born, which are archived and a matter of state record, I'm sure he'd say "That still doesn't prove it.  You can fake anything."  Doug is so convinced and so obsessed with it that he honestly believes that everyone else is as psycho as him, that the evil Democrats have gone to these absurd lengths to get their evil black man into the White House.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that anyone who still truly believes this whole birther nonsense is just trying to cover up their racism

[rumborak]

I'm not saying Obama wasn't born here, but that law is not just some technicality.  It would not matter how many people voted for the person if they were not born in the US.  It's our law.  It is a requirement.  This is why Arnie boy can never run for president.  We all know it and accept that.  So if Obama wasn't born here ( I know he was I'm not arguing that) he would absolutely be holding the presidency in error.

Of course I realize that, and I'm not saying the requirement should be overlooked. The point is that they're desperately trying to shift the attention to this completely technical non-issue, instead of dealing with the brutal reality that for the majority of people the birth certificate and the Hawaiian newspaper articles was enough evidence to vote for the guy.

rumborak

[j]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that anyone who still truly believes this whole birther nonsense is just trying to cover up their racism

I don't think that's necessarily true.  I think most of them are probably just ignorant, stubborn partisans, like Orbert's buddy.  As long as a Democrat's in office, Republicans are gonna be bitching about everything (and vice versa), and this is no exception.

-J

[Orbert]

Yeah, I'm not sure why I threw the word "black" in there.  Maybe just 'cause I've heard it used in similar arguments.  Doug's not really a racist, although I know some of his Republican buddies are.

[jsem]

The above is true.

[El Barto]

Yeah, I'm of the opinion that anyone who still truly believes this whole birther nonsense is just trying to cover up their racism

I don't think that's necessarily true.  I think most of them are probably just ignorant, stubborn partisans, like Orbert's buddy.  As long as a Democrat's in office, Republicans are gonna be bitching about everything (and vice versa), and this is no exception.

-J

I suggest a third option.  I think there are just some people who are drawn to conspiracy theories.  Many of whom are neither stupid nor biased.  Just a function of their wiring. 

[j]

Good point, and in reality it's probably a combo of all three.  I mean based on his description of his conservatism, I doubt Orbert's homeboy was up in arms about 9/11 being an inside job, etc.

-J

[reo73]

Do I believe Obama was born in Hawaii...for sure.  Do I think states should have the right to pass legislation such as this...for sure. 

On a side note, be glad that Arnie can't run for President.

[Orbert]

Yeah, Doug's reaction to 9/11 was much more in line with the rest of the country.  In general, though, it's interesting to see how differently he really does think, from me and presumably from others who are not "extreme" Republicans.  He's a military vet and a police officer, and not coincidentally, a fierce patriot.  I'd want him on my side in any kind of fight, that's for sure.  It just seems like the kind of mind required to be a successful military and police officer tends to divide things into black and white, or take things to extremes.

For example, I'm on his email list, the one where he sends out a dozen or so things a week that I've seen on the 'net 100 times by time I get them from him.  There'll be jokes at Obama's expense, the moronic billboard with GW Bush grinning "Miss Me Yet?" and I'll think about asking him to delete me, then the next one will be cute kittens or some kid saving his family from a burning house or something.  As I said, he's otherwise normal.

[ReaPsTA]

All other aspects of the birther conspiracy ignored, not going to some kind of special measures to unlock the master birth certificate or whatever from file is a super-suspicious thing to do.  "There's proof I'm American right there!  But you can't see it."  Huge red flag.

But of course there's no evidence he was born in Kenya, and the birth notices in the newspaper.  So factually the birther thing doesn't hold up.

[Dublagent66]

   It's laughable because of the timing and that Arizona is just pissed at this administration for a lot of good reasons.  But, to pass something like this now doesn't make any sense.  They should've thought of 3 years ago.   Anyway, the birther issue was brought up for one reason and one reason only, to make Obama look like an illegitimate president.  Well, he's already done that on his own.  We're way past conspiracy theories and birther issues.  The guy is simply unfit for the presidency.  It doesn't have anything to do with race, ethnicity or place of birth.

[ReaPsTA]

 It's laughable because of the timing and that Arizona is just pissed at this administration for a lot of good reasons.  But, to pass something like this now doesn't make any sense.  They should've thought of 3 years ago.   Anyway, the birther issue was brought up for one reason and one reason only, to make Obama look like an illegitimate president.  Well, he's already done that on his own.  We're way past conspiracy theories and birther issues.  The guy is simply unfit for the presidency.  It doesn't have anything to do with race, ethnicity or place of birth.

True.  Howabout starting with the next election presidential candidates have to pass some kind of exam where they prove they understand basic economics.

[El Barto]

No president actually understands economics, and that includes the Beloved St. Reagan.  The understanding you seek is "less government = good."  That's not economics. 

[ReaPsTA]

No president actually understands economics, and that includes the Beloved St. Reagan.  The understanding you seek is "less government = good."  That's not economics.  

It's not that specifically, just the idea that actions have consequences.  If you want to say "by taxing cigarettes more highly, I understand poor people will feel the brunt of this because they have less disposable income and are more likely to smoke.  However, the aim of this policy is specifically to deter cigarette smoking.  While this will have questionable effectiveness, I think it's an appropriate course of action."  I'd never vote for this person, but at least he understands economics.  He passes the test.  I think Obama genuinely believes his policies are the right direction for the U.S. economy, which has no basis in fact.  Granted, his thinking is almost certainly clouded by corruption and double think, but ignorance is ignorance.  I don't want it.

[rumborak]

I think you are mistaking different judgment with ignorance, Reapsta. Saying that Obama has no idea what he's doing is intellectually lazy; Did you consider the possibility that he simply might view the consequences of his economic actions differently than you do?

rumborak

[ReaPsTA]

I think you are mistaking different judgment with ignorance, Reapsta. Saying that Obama has no idea what he's doing is intellectually lazy; Did you consider the possibility that he simply might view the consequences of his economic actions differently than you do?

rumborak

Consequences aren't debatable. Whether you think they're a good or bad thing is completely subjective.  But something either does or doesn't happen, period.

What I'm tired of are presidents and politicians who don't understand these things.  Or, at the very least, don't attempt to portray one.  Although that's a different argument.

[millahh]

Do I think states should have the right to pass legislation such as this...for sure. 

Full faith & credit?

[El Barto]

I think you are mistaking different judgment with ignorance, Reapsta. Saying that Obama has no idea what he's doing is intellectually lazy; Did you consider the possibility that he simply might view the consequences of his economic actions differently than you do?

rumborak

Consequences aren't debatable. Whether you think they're a good or bad thing is completely subjective.  But something either does or doesn't happen, period.

Results and consequences aren't the same thing.  Something either does or doesn't happen, yes,  but the reason isn't always clear.  Furthermore,  there's always an unknown in what didn't happen.  Just because things might have gotten worse, doesn't mean that some other course of action wouldn't have made things,  uh, even worser. 

[rumborak]

If economic policy and consequences were crystal-clear, there wouldn't be economists. Anybody claiming otherwise is trying to sell you something.

rumborak

[Dr. DTVT]

Are people still worried that an "outsider" is going to bring down America?  The provision was originally written to prevent England from sending over some charismatic guy to win an election and hand us back over to the crown.  If someone were born in another country, and became a citizen of the US, I would have no problem voting for them if their beliefs were in line with mine, and if they weren't I'd argue against them because of their views, not their birthright.

[juice]

I don't see whats wrong with the bill.

[kirbywelch92]

I don't see whats wrong with the bill.

It's isn't so much that the idea itself is wrong. What's wrong is the fact that it directly stems from the Obama controversy, whether they admit it or not. Furthermore, it's like beating at something that isn't even slightly an issue. Do you think Obama or anyone else could have made it all the way to the Senate without being a U.S. citizen? It's just an attempt at an exploited loophole because Arizona and other Republicans know that they have no chance for democratic opposition.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Right. It's kind of implied that you've proven you're a US citizen by getting so far in the Preisdential campaign.... I think a whole bunch of people would have been shouting otherwise, far before the Birther Movement, had he NOT been a citizen

[millahh]

I don't see whats wrong with the bill.

Full faith and credit?

[rumborak]

What's "wrong" with this bill is that it shows at what level political discourse is happening in Arizona.

rumborak