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Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

Started by GuineaPig, April 12, 2011, 05:07:42 PM

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cramx3

Quote from: MirrorMask on May 16, 2019, 02:36:55 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on May 16, 2019, 02:27:41 PM
Just bsing with my coworker, remember when Melisandre made the shadow baby from Gendry's kings blood.  Wouldn't she have been able to do something similar with either his blood or Jon's blood again to kill Cersei or even the Night King.  Seems like that power was forgotten, I know I forgot about it.

I don't think the shadow monster would work on a mythical creature like the Night King, and by the time Cersei was the problem, Melisandre already commited suicide by dawn anyway. Also, only Davos knew that and wouldn't be able to suggest it anymore once Melisandre's dead. And why she would suggest it? all she ever cared was her Lord of Light.

Just thinking about it, so not being totally serious, but I forgot she even was able to do that.  But Cersei was a threat long before the Night King was killed but if her interests were only in the Lord of Light, why did she use this power to kill Renly?  If she believed Jon was Azor Ahai now, wouldn't she want to protect him by killing Cersei?  If I remember correctly, she used that power on Renly just so he wouldn't kill Stannis and his army.

MirrorMask

When Jon was resurrected, the impending problem was Ramsay Bolton, and Melisandre saw through that battle. If at all, she would have used the shadow monster on Ramsay, but Jon was no king and Gendry was in King's Landing. Then Davos found out Shireen's toy and deduced that she was burnt at the stake, so he told that to Jon and Jon banished her. She never really had the chance or motive to suggest to magic murder Cersei.

ariich

Quote from: cramx3 on May 16, 2019, 02:39:56 PM
Quote from: MirrorMask on May 16, 2019, 02:36:55 PM
Quote from: cramx3 on May 16, 2019, 02:27:41 PM
Just bsing with my coworker, remember when Melisandre made the shadow baby from Gendry's kings blood.  Wouldn't she have been able to do something similar with either his blood or Jon's blood again to kill Cersei or even the Night King.  Seems like that power was forgotten, I know I forgot about it.

I don't think the shadow monster would work on a mythical creature like the Night King, and by the time Cersei was the problem, Melisandre already commited suicide by dawn anyway. Also, only Davos knew that and wouldn't be able to suggest it anymore once Melisandre's dead. And why she would suggest it? all she ever cared was her Lord of Light.

Just thinking about it, so not being totally serious, but I forgot she even was able to do that.  But Cersei was a threat long before the Night King was killed but if her interests were only in the Lord of Light, why did she use this power to kill Renly?  If she believed Jon was Azor Ahai now, wouldn't she want to protect him by killing Cersei?  If I remember correctly, she used that power on Renly just so he wouldn't kill Stannis and his army.
But she only cared about Azor Ahai for defeating the Night King, and he's now dead.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

MirrorMask

Anyway, totally unrequested, but I thought I'd give it a try to fix the Dorne clusterfuck, by trying to leave most things unchanged, but find room for the revelation from the books where Doran Martell has been secretly plotting against the Lannisters all the time.

I admit I have no solution for Myrcella's death... that could be postponed to season 6 for other factors anyway.

So, the Dorne scenes play out exactly the same as it happened. No changes whatsoever. Where I would come in is the "tea party" of Doran and Jaimie, the one where Tristan gets to punch Bronn in retaliation for earlier - in this scene Ellaria and the Sand Snakes are all in chains however.

Jaimie expresses concerns that they got threated by Dorne - Doran corrects him, "It was not Dorne that threatened Myrcella, it was Ellaria, a decision behind my back. They will pay for it, and I assure you they will be exiled. All of them will be expelled from Dorne".

They shake on it, Doran gives a prince's word, and Jaimie and Bronn are allowed to return home. If they bring Myrcella or not with them, it doesn't make much of a difference.

Then, when people think "so that was all a waste of time", we get a scene of Doran visiting the cells, strongly inspired by how it goes down with the book between Doran and another character...


Ellaria smirks at the sight of Doran standing out of their cells. "So, the party is already over? did you enjoy dining with your friends?"
Doran: "Certainly I enjoyed it more than having my trusted subjects go behind my back with a foolish and reckless move. You should have had more trust in your prince, Ellaria."
Ellaria: *smirks* "Trust? trust in just sitting there and doing nothing? that's what you've always done, nothing!"
Doran: "Preparing and planning the future is not doing nothing. I had my plans and my secrets, just like you all did... however mine are better kept."
Ellaria: "And what is this secret? that you enjoy breaking bread with the Lannisters and celebrate them in your own house?"
Doran: "I treated them as revered guests because I am not rash, like you. I am not impatient, like you... or like Oberyn for that matter. But don't mistake patience for forbearance. I have worked at the downfall of Tywin Lannister since the day they told me of Elia and her children."
Ellaria: "If that is true... why you just let them go?"
Doran: "Because right now the Lannisters are powerful. Much more powerful than we are, and we can't win an open war against them. But we can learn from Oberyn, the Red Viper. What do vipers do? creep in the grass. When you see them, it's already too late. It's better to be their friends for the time being... and when they'll realize we are their enemies, it will be too late for them"
*Doran now gestures to a guard to open the cell*
Ellaria: "So... you are not sending us into exile?"
Doran: "Oh no. You will be going away from Dorne. But it's not gonna be an exile - it's gonna be a mission. A mission to find us the allies we need. You will sail to Essos, and then you will take the long and hard road that will lead you to Mereen, where you will find our heart's desire."
Ellaria: "...and what is our heart's desire?"
Doran: "Vengeance. Justice. Fire and Blood."


-----------------

This way, IMHO obviously, you still have the nice revelation from the books, and then you can have season 6 go on as planned; just give a scene of Ellaria and the Sand Snakes introducing themselves to Dany like the Grejoys did, and still have them wiped out by Euron. It doesn't solve all problems of course but it's better than the cheap shock surprise of Ellaria murdering Doran and Tristan and then completely disappear for the rest of season 6.

ariich

The sand snakes killing all the remaining Martells for failing to stop other Martells from getting killed is without doubt the stupidest and most nonsencial plot point the show has ever used. Thank god season 6 massively picked up after that.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

The Walrus

Forgive me if I already asked this before but Dorne plays a much bigger (and more logically sound) part in the books, right?

RuRoRul

#7356
Well personally I'd pretty much approve any (reasonable) fix that would have given more to Doran Martell in the Dorne stuff. I actually thought the Dorne scenes in Season 5 did a great job of introducing his character and the bodyguard Areo Hotah - it was great casting, they performed well in the scenes they had, and just visually I thought they left a strong impression and were quite unique and memorable. It would have been great if they were better used. Despite often defending changes that get made in order to adapt, I do of course love when they can stick to or pay respect to the books so there's that. But books or not, I just think the idea of this calm, measured guy in a wheelchair who might seem harmless but was the slow and subtle type of threat compared to Oberyn's swift, passionate and bold approach, but the two brother's shared the same goals and worked well together, would have been cool to have in the show.

MirrorMask I'm pretty sure your idea might actually be quite similar to some of my guesses during season 5 or some of how I wished it might have went afterwards  :lol But, the only problem with altering the Dorne storyline is it doesn't just change season 5, it has a knock on effect on to season 6. The part in season 6 premiere where the Sands killed the Martells still remains the single worst major story moment in the show for me, but it was obviously done to quickly get it out of the way and get on with the rest of season 6 which was mostly great. Still, an alternative that did the same thing in a different way like yours would have been preferable to me.

If you could have kept him around, Doran Martell even makes a great "late season man" to have as Daenerys' ally. Let's face it, he's not exactly going anywhere, so as long as he's alive and on team Dany you could have him off screen in the Water Gardens but sending whatever troops were needed from Dorne to give the armies the right size the plot needed  :lol

RuRoRul

Quote from: Kattelox on May 16, 2019, 03:13:47 PM
Forgive me if I already asked this before but Dorne plays a much bigger (and more logically sound) part in the books, right?
Everything plays a much bigger role in the books  :P

But yeah, Dorne was one of the main new locations and plots introduced in books 4 and 5, and is slated to play a prominent role early in book 6. (Book spoilers ahead for anyone who doesn't want them) Dorne is the first case where major point of view characters that exist in the books were just omitted from the show. In the books Doran Martell has two children older than Trystane - Arianne Martell who remains around Dorne and is involved in schemes and politics in Dorne involving Myrcella and the Sand Snakes (the show very loosely adapts some of this, but with no Arianne Martell), and Quentyn Martell who journeys to Meereen to try and make an alliance with Daenerys (which wasn't in the show, the idea of that alliance was basically replaced with Varys showing up in Dorne at the end of Season 6). In the next book, Dorne will have a major role in another plot thread from the books which is probably the biggest existing book plot missing from the show, the invasion of Aegon Targaryen - that baby the Mountain killed that Oberyn was so pissed about, who supposedly isn't dead.


The Walrus

Wow, that's really cool. OK... making a trip to the store tomorrow to pick up AGOT again.  :metal

cramx3

Quote from: Kattelox on May 16, 2019, 03:36:44 PM
Wow, that's really cool. OK... making a trip to the store tomorrow to pick up AGOT again.  :metal

Dont get too excited. The books wrote all these plots and got them started and left us all hanging. Might be better off to not be hanging with the rest of us  :lol

gmillerdrake

My plan for a while was to get through the series then pick up the books a couple years after the show had ended.....to let that 'wear off' and maybe give me as fresh a perspective as I could get going into the books. Hopefully by the time I start them GRRM will have them finished.  :lol

ariich

Quote from: cramx3 on May 16, 2019, 05:40:39 PM
Quote from: Kattelox on May 16, 2019, 03:36:44 PM
Wow, that's really cool. OK... making a trip to the store tomorrow to pick up AGOT again.  :metal

Dont get too excited. The books wrote all these plots and got them started and left us all hanging. Might be better off to not be hanging with the rest of us  :lol
Well, BOOK SPOILERS: Quentyn's arc wasn't left hanging at least. :P

I like GRRM's writing but in Dance With Dragons it really started to get too convoluted and waffley. He introduced all these new characters and plot elements that added a huge amount of words but not much to the narrative (e.g. Quentyn's whole arc is really just to show that Doran is a schemer).

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

The Walrus

I think I've finally accepted that I've been in denial for most of this season. The plot beats make sense to me, but the rush... I just don't see how this ending is going to be satisfying. 80 minutes is not anywhere near enough time to wrap things up. It'll just be nice that it's over, I guess.

That petition... obviously they aren't going to remake the season but holy cow. When I first heard about it, there were only 16k signatures. It's over 800k now. That's quite a message they're sending.

cramx3


KevShmev

Quote from: Kattelox on May 17, 2019, 06:29:34 AM
I think I've finally accepted that I've been in denial for most of this season. The plot beats make sense to me, but the rush... I just don't see how this ending is going to be satisfying. 80 minutes is not anywhere near enough time to wrap things up. It'll just be nice that it's over, I guess.

That petition... obviously they aren't going to remake the season but holy cow. When I first heard about it, there were only 16k signatures. It's over 800k now. That's quite a message they're sending.

What message? That they are a bunch of crybabies who aren't getting the ending they wanted?  Well, boo freaking hoo. :lol :lol

Sometimes (okay, most of the time), the internet really sucks.

MirrorMask

A petition is obviously useless, but it will be a little stain on the authors' reputation. Be sure that a small but vocal group of people will make very known that they'll refuse to watch the Star Wars movies they will be involved in.

About the finale, we'll see how it goes, there are still many plot points which are not that predictable, least of all what happens to the Iron Throne when the new claimant went Hitler all over the capital, the real heir doesn't want it, and the actual chair itself might not even exist anymore after all the destruction.

One would posit that in a show with magic, fantasy, dragons and everything else, any kind of coherent finale would do, that with such unlimited possibilites the worse thing tha could happen would be a "safe" ending, but still something satisfying on many levels. Let's hope we were not all bracing for a Breaking Bad, only to get a Dexter  :biggrin:

The Walrus

Well, obviously it's a drop in the bucket and nothing will come of it, I just think it's remarkable how much attention it's received and how much backlash the season is getting (justified or otherwise). I'm sure HBO is more than aware that D&D have essentially tanked their biggest property ever in terms of critical review, but it's more successful than ever, so what does it matter in the end, really.

I'm just bracing myself for a massive dose of unhappiness Sunday (both in the tone of the episode, and the response to it  :lol).

gmillerdrake

Quote from: cramx3 on May 17, 2019, 06:39:10 AM
The petition is dumb.

It certainly reflects our society right now.

ariich

I've had some complaints this season but the overall quality has been broadly in line with the last few seasons. That petition is ridiculous.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.

gmillerdrake

Quote from: ariich on May 17, 2019, 07:00:59 AM
I've had some complaints this season but the overall quality has been broadly in line with the last few seasons. That petition is ridiculous.

The entire backlash against the season is ridiculous. It's fine to criticize....but I still maintain that the bulk of the complaining and bashing going on online is nothing but a snowball effect pissing match between a very large group of unqualified 'critics' who realize their bashing articles and videos will get more views/shares and likes than anything agreeable. This season is nowhere as horrible or wrecked as the internet is making it out to be.

The Walrus

There's some real gold over on the Freefolk reddit if anyone's looking for some top tier memes about season 8. I'm bummed about season 8 too, but damn if there aren't some funny jokes out there

gmillerdrake

Quote from: Kattelox on May 17, 2019, 07:13:17 AM
There's some real gold over on the Freefolk reddit if anyone's looking for some top tier memes about season 8. I'm bummed about season 8 too, but damn if there aren't some funny jokes out there

I bet. At this point it's a competition and that usually conjures creativity in the internet world.

kaos2900

Quote from: Kattelox on May 17, 2019, 06:29:34 AM
I think I've finally accepted that I've been in denial for most of this season. The plot beats make sense to me, but the rush... I just don't see how this ending is going to be satisfying. 80 minutes is not anywhere near enough time to wrap things up. It'll just be nice that it's over, I guess.

That petition... obviously they aren't going to remake the season but holy cow. When I first heard about it, there were only 16k signatures. It's over 800k now. That's quite a message they're sending.

That petition sums pretty much sums up my feelings on social media and society in general. How entitled can people be? If people really think the show sucks then stop fucking watching. Seriously, have these people watched anything else? I can understand that people may not like certain aspects of the show, but 800K people found it necessary to take the time to basically say how much they hate this season? I feel really bad for all the people who spent so much time on the show only to see that reaction. It's sad to me that people are apparently so unhappy with their lives that they find it necessary to go to this level. I can't believe that the Mona Lisa doesn't have blonde hair. I'm going to start a petition for it to be correct.  ::)

The Walrus

I mean it only takes a few seconds to sign it, I think it's just symbolic of how badly D&D have fudged up their good will with the fans. I don't think it's THAT offensive.  :lol

Progmetty

I think it's unfair to call dissenters cry babies.
I wrote this somewhere else on the subject:
The fans dissenting on the current season are definitely NOT all bothered by the same things. I think they are divided into two different thoughts:
1. Fans who are not happy with the story, mostly they don't like the mad queen route. These are dumbasses IMHO, I have no problem with that story, it was my favorite fan theory before, but the double D's will successfully use these fans to deter objective criticism of the season. They will group them with legitimate dissenters and say "Oh everybody is just angry cause they didn't get the ending they wanted".
2. Fans who are not happy with how the story was told, the bad screen writing and horrible pacing which came as a byproduct of the double D's wanting to move on to other projects. These fans complaint is legitimate, there have been some terrible writing on seasons 7 & 8. HBO offered the double D's two full seasons to finish GoT, with that much time they could have portrayed Dany's decent to madness and gave it the merit it required to get to what happened in Kingslanding in the end. They laid virtually NO ground work for that on the show. In the novels, Dany is not as nice as she is at the show, at one point she ordered the torture of little girls for information when one of her servants was killed, but the show rarely gave us that side of her and when they did; it was always justified to make you sympathize with her. The novels have been preparing for the ending for a long time, it's a logical one for the narrative GRRM has created but it doesn't make sense on the show, it just feels like sloppy bad writing. The double D's have ruined this by being over-confident, arrogant and disrespectful to GRRM and the fans, I hope Disney takes notice and cancels their Star Wars contract with them because it's bound to be catastrophic for the franchise.

RuRoRul

Yeah, the petition is really dumb since a demand to "remake season 8 with competent writers" comes across as entitled and ignorant of anything to do with making a TV show, so for people to try to promote that as the most prominent example of fan criticism of the show just makes it very easy for people to have the perception that the majority of the criticism of the season can be reduced to a tantrum of spoiled brats yelling "make me another one!" Most criticism of the season was more reasonable and legitimate than that, and I think it was pretty much already heard across the internet, so making a big effort to try to make sure that everyone associates criticism of the show with people that signed a petition for such a stupid idea doesn't really seem like a great move to me (doesn't matter that "We obviously don't actually expect it to get remade, it's just a joke" - if it's such a stupid idea then why go out of the way to ensure it's probably the most commonly heard reaction of people that didn't like the show?).

ErHaO

I don't get why this had to be rushed. Like, it is without a doubt the most popular series ever and instead of milking it (what usually happens and is also wrong) it feels like they are leaping through bullet points Martin gave them? I don't get it. 

Quote from: kaos2900 on May 17, 2019, 07:44:29 AM
Quote from: Kattelox on May 17, 2019, 06:29:34 AM
I think I've finally accepted that I've been in denial for most of this season. The plot beats make sense to me, but the rush... I just don't see how this ending is going to be satisfying. 80 minutes is not anywhere near enough time to wrap things up. It'll just be nice that it's over, I guess.

That petition... obviously they aren't going to remake the season but holy cow. When I first heard about it, there were only 16k signatures. It's over 800k now. That's quite a message they're sending.

That petition sums pretty much sums up my feelings on social media and society in general. How entitled can people be? If people really think the show sucks then stop fucking watching. Seriously, have these people watched anything else? I can understand that people may not like certain aspects of the show, but 800K people found it necessary to take the time to basically say how much they hate this season? I feel really bad for all the people who spent so much time on the show only to see that reaction. It's sad to me that people are apparently so unhappy with their lives that they find it necessary to go to this level. I can't believe that the Mona Lisa doesn't have blonde hair. I'm going to start a petition for it to be correct.  ::)

These petitions are silly and over the top, yes, but it is an easy way for people to let the showrunners know they are not happy with the product, with a numerical value to show for it, along with some internet hyperbole. I think that is the main appeal. And it is a product people paid for so I don't see why it is entitled to let them know they didn't enjoy it. In the end I doubt many people actually believe this will amount to anything or even align with the "demands". I only once signed one of these things and that was to get the Yakuza game series localized, and it took me like 30 seconds (probably did fuck all, but we have those games available now at least!). Yes, the core demand of that petition isn't going to amount to anything and isn't reasonable, but it remains an easy way to tell "I think these writers fucked it up" and lot's of folks are joining in because of that. At least, that is how I perceive it.

Furthermore, from the art perspective, when you invested a lot of time in art, especially in a story you have been following for 8 years, it can hit close to home when you don't like it anymore or even hate it. To me, it is more of a testament to how much art and storytelling means to people. These stories can mean a lot to people and that is simply a fact that applies to millions upon millions of people. That is bound the spawn some dramatic internet takes.

On the flipside, I do think there are lot of people on the internet that are waaay to sensitive and are overreacting to a lot of things.

Progmetty

I think the petition is a symbolic thing like Kattelox said but it could have been worded better. No one is "remaking" shit and everybody knows that, for the least reason being you won't be able to get the actors back, it's not like the good old days when studios owned actors and can force them to do what they want.

pg1067

Quote from: Kattelox on May 17, 2019, 08:21:49 AM
I mean it only takes a few seconds to sign it, I think it's just symbolic of how badly D&D have fudged up their good will with the fans. I don't think it's THAT offensive.  :lol

Parts of it are.  I didn't read it, but rather read an article that summarizes the grievances thusly (I clicked on the link in the article but couldn't apparently access the actual petition):

Not being able to see the Battle of Winterfell clearly because it was so dark:  This is the most legit thing on the list.

Arya killing the Night King instead of Jon:  This is right in line of what I wrote yesterday or the day before.  People decide in their heads how the plot should go and then get disappointed when it doesn't happen that way.

The Night King's relatively easy death:  Easy?  Whatever.

Sansa's conversation with The Hound, which attributed her strong character to the rape and torture she endured:  I don't really understand what this issue is.  Is someone suggesting that the crap she endured wouldn't have strengthened her?

Rhaegal's easy death:  This is nothing more than "I wanted X to happen, but Y happened."

Missandei dying in chains:  Huh?

Jon's treatment of Ghost:  Are you fucking kidding me?

The basic existence of Euron Greyjoy:  This may be lost in translation from the article, so I'll let this go, but as phrased, it's patently silly.

Jaime's reversal of his redemption arc and lackluster death by Cersei's side:  See comment above re Rhaegal's death.

Daenerys' swift pivot to Mad Queen and subsequent burning of Kings Landing:  See comment above re Rhaegal's death.


Has there ever been a petition of this sort that actually accomplished anything?  I get writing blogs and comments, but doing it in the "petition" format is so utterly silly.  Dissent is one thing, but, as RuRoRul just noted, "a demand to 'remake season 8 with competent writers' comes across as entitled and ignorant of anything to do with making a TV show."

The Walrus

Well if you go by the Internet, dogs matter more than humans, so of course everyone is enraged that "omg good doge dinnit get petteded wtf!"  and it's racist that Missandei died in chains.  :lol :lol

RuRoRul

Quote from: Progmetty on May 17, 2019, 08:49:16 AM
I think the petition is a symbolic thing like Kattelox said but it could have been worded better. No one is "remaking" shit and everybody knows that
Yeah, so it's really dumb for critics of the season to symbolically associate themselves with such a idiotic and entitled request.

I mean, you can imagine the scene:

Interviewer: "So, the reaction to the final season wasn't that great. A million fans signed a petition to remake season 8 with 'competent writers...'"
Someone that worked on the show: "Yeah, I heard that *chuckles*... look, making a season of TV is a huge project, it takes a tonne of work and everyone worked really hard on it, so people acting like it's a simple task to just remake a season obviously don't know all of that, and even if you aren't happy with it I think it's disrespectful to all the people that worked on it to demand they do it again."
Interviewer: *chuckles* "Yeah, people don't know everything that gets into making a TV show. Anyway, your next film..."

People Raging Online: "We didn't want them to remake it, we signed that ironically, we just hate the lack of NUANCED WRITING!!"

I know some people will always want to dismiss and minimize criticism anyway, but why score an own goal by reductively shifting attention to an idiotic and entitled petition. I get the "symbolic" goal of trying to show that a large number of people hate season 8, but since that was already well known it didn't seem like that much of a challenge, so all it's doing is making people associated people that hate season 8 with people that would act like petty entitled idiots. It's like idiots that give Rick and Morty fans a bad name by making people associate them with people that throw a tantrum over Szechuan sauce.

I'm not outraged that people would dare criticise the show (I do dislike people making their criticism so personal and targeted towards individuals, but that ship already sailed), it's more that from the perspective of people criticisng the show I see it as a stupid move to want to make a petition like that your #1 image in pop culture.

pg1067

Quote from: Kattelox on May 17, 2019, 08:57:29 AM
Well if you go by the Internet, dogs matter more than humans, so of course everyone is enraged that "omg good doge dinnit get petteded wtf!"  and it's racist that Missandei died in chains.  :lol :lol

This is so true I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

MirrorMask

Yeah, I can see how those points are mainly nitpickings. My main complaints are:

- As much as I understand that it's difficult to have the heroes survive (in order to fight another day and eventually win) an unstoppable force of nature, the sudden defeat of the White Walkers means that nobody in Westeros south of the Twins will even realize how much Jon was right in warning about the dead, ie - the seemingly main theme of the show.
- Arya jumps out of nowhere for her surprise attack to the Night King. Pippin in Lord of the Rings made a surprise attack at the Nazgul, nobody complained about that because he was right there on the ground.
- Rhaegal, a moving flying target, gets seen and sniped with 100% precision by a ship that was hidden and therefore couldn't have been able to see it. I can't see you, you can't see me.

I accept the story decisions, but they have to make sense. Pippin stabbing the leg of the Nazgul because he was on the ground having fallen with Eowyn from the horse they were both riding makes sense. Pippin being shown 20 minutes earlier in Minas Tirith and then flying out of the air to attack the Nazgul doesn't make sense, no matter how much you rationalize it by saying "He had the time to get out of Minas Tirith, you knew he cared for Eowyn".

But there are many small things that amount to the story being a bit off, we can see it analyzing how many wrong things there are with a single scene, the war council on what to do after having destroyed the White Walkers. Here we go from Wikiquote:

QuoteGrey Worm: [on the Unsullied] Half are gone.
Jon Snow: The Northmen as well.
Varys: And the Golden Company has arrived in King's Landing, courtesy of the Greyjoy Fleet. The balance has become... distressingly even.
Missandei: When the people find out what we have done for them, how we saved them-
Daenerys Targaryen: Cersei will make sure they don't believe it. We will hit her hard. We will rip her out, root and stem.
Tyrion Lannister: The objective here is to remove Cersei, without destroying King's Landing.
Varys: Thankfully, she's losing allies by the day. Yara Greyjoy has retaken the Iron Islands in her Queen's name. The new Prince of Dorne pledges his support.
Daenerys Targaryen: No matter how many Lords turn against her, as long as she sits on the Iron Throne, she can call herself Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. We need the capital.
Tyrion Lannister: I watched the people of King's Landing rebel against their King when they were hungry, and that was before winter began. Give them the opportunity, and they will cast Cersei aside.
Jon Snow: We'll surround the city. If the Iron Fleet tries to ferry in more food, the dragons will destroy them. If the Lannisters and the Golden Company attack, we'll defeat them in the field.
Tyrion Lannister: Once the people see that Cersei is our only enemy, her reign is over.
Daenerys Targaryen: All right.
Sansa Stark: The men we have left are exhausted. Many of them are wounded. They'll fight better if they have time to rest and recuperate.
Daenerys Targaryen: How long do you suggest?
Sansa Stark: I can't say for certain, not without talking to the officers.
Daenerys Targaryen: I came north to fight alongside you, at great cost to my armies and myself. Now that the time has come to reciprocate, you want to postpone.
Sansa Stark: It's not just our people, it's yours! You want to throw them into a war they're not ready to fight?
Daenerys Targaryen: The longer I leave my enemies alone, the stronger they become.
Jon Snow: [firmly] The Northern forces will honor their promises, and their allegiance to the Queen of the Seven Kingdoms. What you command, we will obey.
Tyrion Lannister: So. If all are in agreement... Jon and Ser Davos will ride down the Kingsroad with the Northern troops and the bulk of the remaining Dothraki and Unsullied. A smaller group of us will ride to White Harbor, and sail from there to Dragonstone, with our Queen and her dragons accompanying us from above. Ser Jaime has chosen to remain here, as a quest of the Lady of Winterfell.
Daenerys Targaryen: [locking eyes with Sansa] We have won the Great War. Now, we will win the last war. In all Seven Kingdoms, men will live without fear and cruelty... under their rightful Queen.

In one single scene, with few minutes of dialogue, we have:

1) A direct contradiction when Varys says that Cersei is LOSING allies, but Dany says her enemies grow STRONGER; does she even listen?
2) A very reasonable issue raised by Sansa, with everyone being tired, that is dismissed by saying something in direct contradiction with something affirmed before;
3) The role of the dragons being estabilished as anti-ships "aircrafts" only for the dragons not seeing ships from above later;
4) Who are those allies and enemies to begin with? Cersei didn't "lose" the Iron Islands (a bunch of sea rapists that nobody even remembers they exist until they raid too much inland) or Dorne (people secreting hating the Lannister for the murder of Elia Martell and their children), it was only logical they wouldn't care for her.

Elaborating more on this: someone earlier said that they wanted to focus more on the main storylines, and also on the actual actors being paid to be the protagonists. This of course makes total and complete sense, you can't pay a fuckton of money to Lena Headey and Peter Dinklage to sit in their trailers while you show Mr. RandomBum from RandomHouse doing something that has no relation to the main story just because it's in a 1500 pages book, but on the other hand, their made the world too much small, without achieving a proper compromise between pruning the cast, and world building.

This is no longer the game of thrones, it's Jon and Dany versus Cersei. Everyone else has disappeared. The story began with Rob having to cross a random bridge, and he had to give himself AND ARYA away in marriage to do it. That's how complex the world was. It's like if the Hobbits to leave the Shire would have to pay a big toll at a bridge, and being murdered for it when they didn't respect the pacts. Now we don't know:
- Who's in charge in place of basically anyone else who isn't the Lannisters or the Starks
- How the people of King's Landing reacted to the explosion of the Vatican with the Pope and the royal family inside.

Dany says that people won't now fear and cruelty anymore - are people in Westeros subjected to fear and cruelty? do we see Cersei being an active tyrant? is there a dictatorship in King's Landing with people being rounded up for being out late at night, are there unjust taxes? we don't know. We don't even know what the other lords of Westeros (because they are never mentioned) think and if "sending a message to them" in burning King's Landing could be a logical choice or not.

Anyone remember when Cersei was visited by Mycroft Holmes from the Iron Bank? she said that the explosion of the sept was "an accident". Maybe that was the cover story, a tragic accident with wildfire, the pyromancers screwed up, the young and gentle heart of the king couldn't handle such destruction, the queen mother is devasted as anyone and with a heavy heart and without heirs assumes the crown for the good of the realm blah blah blah.  We must assume it at best, we don't see it and so we can never see if people have an actual reason to love Dany or to long for her.

This is what creates all the discussions about the actions of the protagonists: when it's literally just Starks + Dany vs Cersei in King's Landing, we no longer have a view on how the rest of Westworld reacts, or even lives under Cersei, to contextualize better the choices of Dany.

The Walrus


ariich

Quote from: pg1067 on May 17, 2019, 08:51:01 AM
Sansa's conversation with The Hound, which attributed her strong character to the rape and torture she endured:  I don't really understand what this issue is.  Is someone suggesting that the crap she endured wouldn't have strengthened her?
There is actually a valid complaint here, although ultimately it comes down to lazy writing like most of the valid issues from the last few seasons. Rape is not typically something that strengthens the victim. In some cases it can, sure, everyone is different and has different experiences which affect them in different ways. But in many cases (perhaps most, I've no idea what the stats suggest) the experience has an extremely negative impact on the victim which they have to work hard to recover from, if they can.

Of course it's possible for someone to be affected like Sansa was, so I'm not sure it's unrealistic in that sense, but people are absolutely entitled to feel that the way it was written (especially in such brief and basic terms) implies that rape has a positive outcome.

Quote from: Buddyhunter1 on May 10, 2023, 05:59:19 PMAriich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
Quote from: TAC on December 21, 2023, 06:05:15 AMI be am boner inducing.