Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[cramx3]

I always liked Jaime until the end.  His character was one, similar to Joffrey, that I loved to hate.  He was such an ass, but I enjoyed hating him.  Then he turned, and you felt for him, and you began to actually like him.  His jokes weren't just asshole type of jokes, they were funny too.  His nicknames for everyone were great.  But him turning back to Cersei really made me dislike him, and not the love to hate.  Just hate at that point.  I hated his character going back for her. 

[KevShmev]

I always liked Jaime until the end.  His character was one, similar to Joffrey, that I loved to hate.  He was such an ass, but I enjoyed hating him.  Then he turned, and you felt for him, and you began to actually like him.  His jokes weren't just asshole type of jokes, they were funny too.  His nicknames for everyone were great.  But him turning back to Cersei really made me dislike him, and not the love to hate.  Just hate at that point.  I hated his character going back for her.

But it was very realistic.  By the time humans reach adulthood, we are who we are, and while we saw Jaime's good side come out as the seasons went on, he was still the guy who always knew who and what Cersei was, and loved her anyway.  Once it became clear that Daenerys and the North were going to invade King's Landing and likely win the war, his love for her got the best of him again and all he could think about was getting to trying to save her.

[cramx3]

I always liked Jaime until the end.  His character was one, similar to Joffrey, that I loved to hate.  He was such an ass, but I enjoyed hating him.  Then he turned, and you felt for him, and you began to actually like him.  His jokes weren't just asshole type of jokes, they were funny too.  His nicknames for everyone were great.  But him turning back to Cersei really made me dislike him, and not the love to hate.  Just hate at that point.  I hated his character going back for her.

But it was very realistic.  By the time humans reach adulthood, we are who we are, and while we saw Jaime's good side come out as the seasons went on, he was still the guy who always knew who and what Cersei was, and loved her anyway.  Once it became clear that Daenerys and the North were going to invade King's Landing and likely win the war, his love for her got the best of him again and all he could think about was getting to trying to save her.

My feeling isn't necessarily a bash on the story.  I think the end results is what you say, he is who he is and that is someone madly in love with his sister.  But it doesn't change the fact I hated him for it.  He was soooo close to overcoming it all.  Even understanding that he went for what he loved, he loved Cersei and I can't help but absolutely hate that even after all the things he overcame.

edit:  although I do think his storyline was rushed like all them in the final season so maybe if the story did flesh this out a bit more, I could have found a way to still enjoy his character.  The story being rushed didn't do this any favors. 

[KevShmev]

My feeling isn't necessarily a bash on the story.  I think the end results is what you say, he is who he is and that is someone madly in love with his sister.  But it doesn't change the fact I hated him for it.  He was soooo close to overcoming it all.  Even understanding that he went for what he loved, he loved Cersei and I can't help but absolutely hate that even after all the things he overcame.

I hear ya.  It was tough to see at the beginning, but Jaime always had good qualities to go along with the bad ones;  remember how, in Season 1 following his duel with Ned, he told Tywin, who asked why he was still alive, that he didn't kill him because a guard interfered and his death wouldn't have been clean?  That was the attitude of someone who at least had some honor and sense of what was right, even if his many bad qualities made them hard to see at first.  And let's be honest, I suspect most of us who had not read the books had issues seeing any good in him for a while following what he did to Bran at the end of Episode 1 of Season 1, even when it was there.

[MoraWintersoul]

The Cersei thing could have gone either way, and with some better writing and directing, this outcome would have been very compelling to watch. As we see by the questions in this thread, it's not even 100% clear whether Jaime thought he was on a suicide mission or not. The moment when he realized they would die should have been a big moment for him, as he reconciles with everything.

What really bugs me is the "I never really cared for [the smallfolk] anyway" line. Like, way to crap on the best Jaime moment ever.

[faizoff]

Watching the season 8 bluray the episodes look a lot better already than the streaming version. Esp the long night episode, there was no obvious banding on the dark scenes with the dragons. It looked great on bluray I would think it would look even more amazing on 4K.

Also listened to two commentaries, one with Director Miguel Sapochnik and his DP and cameraman on the long night episode. They joked a lot about the 'can't see anything' aspect of the episode. Miguel also mentioned how about 60 mins of shot footage was dropped from the episode.  They shot so many things during that massive 55 day and night schedule.

The other commentary was the season finale with Emilia Clark and D&D. Emilia Clarke asked D&D what their favorite seasons were and they said 4 was peak fun. After that 6 & 8 were next but was a massive logistics puzzle.
Other tidbits were how everyone was talking about the starbucks coffee when it wasn't even a starbucks cup.

The making-of features are great, will dive into the histories and lore portions soon, those are always my favorite of these sets.

[Stadler]

Devil's advocate here, but other than Bran, what did Jaime do that was objectively THAT crappy?  Okay, so he boned his sister, repeatedly, but we know that's not a huge deal in Westeros.  He went along with a lot, but that's hardly a crime.  If it was, then virtually every character - including St. Ned Stark - was guilty.    He spared Ned's life; he honored his oath to to the crown (remember the sequence where Tywin tried to get him to go back to Casterly Rock)?  He was honorable to Brienne, he was honorable, to Catelyn Stark, he joined the existential fight against the dead...

And as I'm typing this, it dawns on me:  there's not a 1,000 miles of difference between Jaime Lannister and Jon/Aegon. 

[MirrorMask]

You have also to consider his upbriging. Golden child, everyone praising and asskissing him, the heir to the Lannister fortune, an awesome swordfighter... he was born into wealth, praised for it, and fucked up literally and figuratively by her stupid hot sister, for whom he decided to join the Kingsguard to stay close to her.

He served under a mad king (duh, his actual nickname) and resorted to kill him to spare the entire capital from exploding in a mayhem of wildfire, and he's forever branded "kingslayer", "man without honor", with everyone thinking he's the biggest asshole in Westeros. There's only so much of this that he can take before eventually going "ah, screw it" and live up to his reputation, because why bother trying to explain what you did.

He had always that honorable side of him, he was just fucked up for life (in more ways than once) by his sister, he just had to get away from her to start behaving better, thanks also to the positive influence of other people.

If you look back knowing what we know, he basically did his "confession" like he did to Brienne to Catelyn as well, while he was her prisoner; when confronted with breaking his oaths, he said that you swear so many oaths that one contradicted the other, especially if the king would massacre thousands of innocents. It's just that he told in such a smug way that the actual implication was not understood, but he basically told Catelyn what he told Brienne - "Look, the king was a major asshole, I did King's Landing a favor by killing him".

Which, as was said above, made his final remark "I never cared for the innocent people" more infuriating.

[Stadler]

Honestly, Jon did exactly what Jaime did and for the exact same reasons.   

[Chino]

Devil's advocate here, but other than Bran, what did Jaime do that was objectively THAT crappy?  Okay, so he boned his sister, repeatedly, but we know that's not a huge deal in Westeros.

I think it's a big deal when that boning results in Joffrey, and Jaime keeping his secrets grants him the throne.

His secret devil spawn killed Ned and unleashed a shit wave across Westeros.

[Adami]

Devil's advocate here, but other than Bran, what did Jaime do that was objectively THAT crappy?  Okay, so he boned his sister, repeatedly, but we know that's not a huge deal in Westeros.  He went along with a lot, but that's hardly a crime.  If it was, then virtually every character - including St. Ned Stark - was guilty.    He spared Ned's life; he honored his oath to to the crown (remember the sequence where Tywin tried to get him to go back to Casterly Rock)?  He was honorable to Brienne, he was honorable, to Catelyn Stark, he joined the existential fight against the dead...

And as I'm typing this, it dawns on me:  there's not a 1,000 miles of difference between Jaime Lannister and Jon/Aegon.

He also murdered his cousin (I think it was his cousin) and was a key figure in many many other horrible acts, even if he himself did not personally do them.

[KevShmev]

The way Jaime taunted Catelyn about "poor dead Ned" made it easy to hate him as well.

[Adami]

So I haven't read any of the books, but for those who have...how redemptive is Jaime's arc? Does he have one or is that more of the show's doing?

I'm just wondering because the actor is soooo likable that I wouldn't be too shocked if they changed the character to reflect that.

[cramx3]

Devil's advocate here, but other than Bran, what did Jaime do that was objectively THAT crappy?  Okay, so he boned his sister, repeatedly, but we know that's not a huge deal in Westeros.  He went along with a lot, but that's hardly a crime.  If it was, then virtually every character - including St. Ned Stark - was guilty.    He spared Ned's life; he honored his oath to to the crown (remember the sequence where Tywin tried to get him to go back to Casterly Rock)?  He was honorable to Brienne, he was honorable, to Catelyn Stark, he joined the existential fight against the dead...

And as I'm typing this, it dawns on me:  there's not a 1,000 miles of difference between Jaime Lannister and Jon/Aegon.

He also murdered his cousin (I think it was his cousin) and was a key figure in many many other horrible acts, even if he himself did not personally do them.

This.  His captive cousin by the Starks.  Easily the worst thing he did IMO.  He also had that cocky attitude that is easy to dislike.

[RuRoRul]

So I haven't read any of the books, but for those who have...how redemptive is Jaime's arc? Does he have one or is that more of the show's doing?

I'm just wondering because the actor is soooo likable that I wouldn't be too shocked if they changed the character to reflect that.

I'd say it's at least the same, if not more so. Hard to compare for sure since the books aren't over and only have Jaime's story up to a point (they include much of the events of Season 6 for Jaime, but it's different because Jaime never went to Dorne so this is still occurring during the events of Season 5 for other characters, also the last chapter of Jaime from the books is going towards something that wasn't in the show). Also it's hard to say whether the similar storyline in the books is necessarily "more redemptive" or just better written / allows us to see even more of the character's mindset which makes him seem more sympathetic.

Jaime Lannister wasn't a POV character until book 3, so in the books you didn't even really see as much of him as you did in earlier seasons of the show, most people would've likely saw him as a straight villain. In books 3-5 he definitely is redeemed in the reader's eyes, both because of actions like helping Brienne, and because of getting his perspective on his past.

[ZirconBlue]

So I haven't read any of the books, but for those who have...how redemptive is Jaime's arc? Does he have one or is that more of the show's doing?

I'm just wondering because the actor is soooo likable that I wouldn't be too shocked if they changed the character to reflect that.

He has a somewhat redemptive arc going, but what really makes a difference in the books is that each chapter is told from a certain character's point of view.  It becomes easier to empathize with Jaime when we start seeing things from his POV.


In contrast, when Cersei starts getting POV chapters, she's still a c*nt.

[The Walrus]

Just want to take a moment to remember the One True Queen and the Finest Lady In Westeros, Margaery Tyrell         

[MoraWintersoul]

Just want to take a moment to remember the One True Queen and the Finest Lady In Westeros, Margaery Tyrell         

I wish Natalie was still available and willing to play her and that they had done a (well-written! can't stress this enough) subplot of Marg somehow coming out on top and ruling King's Landing (say, through still-alive Tommen) when Dany ultimately comes along. It would have given her later antagonists the reasons to try and talk Dany out of burning KL, instead of the siege dilemma they were pushing. "Okay, this was nice, now ride with me so I can liberate my Throne!" - "yeah, we all like the Tyrell queen, and we don't want to murder children so you can have the throne, so good luck with that". At the same time, she would have maybe had an ally or two, because they all know Tommen isn't legitimate, and for some people, the ends justify the means.

[MirrorMask]

Indeed! as I said in the past, I didn't read the books but I read a lot about the books, so - keeping it vague for Stadler - I know there's a whole plotline completely absent from the show, when there's ANOTHER and BETTER claimant to the Iron Throne, who might even be an impostor but could be really liked by the crowds.

That, and your Margaery hypothesis, would have been a nice subversion of the trope of the liberating savior. Literature is full of tales of the brave legitimate ruler who comes back to take the land from a tyrant, but what if the real, rightful ruler comes along and people are "Nah, we're good with what we have, thank you"? THAT would be a legit tipping point for Dany, not that confused bullshit we got in the show.

[Stadler]

I appreciate the respect shown here for spoilers and what not, but in case anyone cares, I'm far less worried about spoilers for the books.  It's a different experience for me.  I've read the Blade Runner book about 10 times, and it's not like I don't know what's coming.  With reading, it's the experience, the immersion.   The shows, not so much, because there's always that "wow factor" of seeing something for the first time. 

EDIT:  To the second part of your post, MirrorMask, it's not like Martin completely revolutionized the fantasy genre, but he did do, I think, a great job of staying away from tropes, and balancing the epic with the mundane.   The D-Bags did a decent job of reflecting that in the first six seasons, and I would have liked to see a little more effort to continue that through 7 and 8.  As some of you know from other threads here, I'm not really all that thrilled in asserting what people's motives are if I haven't had the conversation with them (directly or indirectly) but I think there's a really strong argument that these two began to believe their own hype and got ahead of their skis. 

[The Walrus]

I appreciate the respect shown here for spoilers and what not, but in case anyone cares, I'm far less worried about spoilers for the books.  It's a different experience for me.  I've read the Blade Runner book about 10 times, and it's not like I don't know what's coming.  With reading, it's the experience, the immersion.   The shows, not so much, because there's always that "wow factor" of seeing something for the first time.

I'm telling ya, in that case, you're gonna love reading the scenes with Ned and Robert. SO DAMN GOOD.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

I miss the excitement between seasons, I think binge watching a show like GoT isn't really the same as seeing seasons when they aired. The journey every character makes feels greater when you stretch it over 8 years. Of course there's other benefits by binge watching a show but I think that's one thing you can't really replicate any other way unless you go hardcore binging and wait a year between seasons. 

[MirrorMask]

For me "binging" is watching one episode, maximum two per day. And I would have done so even with the latter series, but they were such a cultural phenomenon that it was impossible to avoid spoilers (unless you were renouncing social media altogether), and so I caved in and watched every episode since season 5 in real time or as close as I could. I would have gladly waited until the final season was over and watch it all in a week.

[cramx3]

I miss the excitement between seasons, I think binge watching a show like GoT isn't really the same as seeing seasons when they aired. The journey every character makes feels greater when you stretch it over 8 years. Of course there's other benefits by binge watching a show but I think that's one thing you can't really replicate any other way unless you go hardcore binging and wait a year between seasons. 

What you miss while binge watching is the discussion about what you just watched.  This thread here is a great example.  You learn so much more when talking about it and it gets you even more excited for the next episode.  When binging you end up missing out on a lot of the finer details which GOT is filled with.

[The Walrus]

https://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-54106509

RIP Diana Rigg.

[MirrorMask]

"Tell the world. I want them to know one of the very best things about Game of Thrones was me".

 

And the list of sucky things about 2020 grows longer yet!

[Bolsters]

 

[Adami]

I know most people today will remember her from GoT, and a lot of people will remember her from The Avengers.

But me? I'll remember her how I can only assume she truly wanted to be remembered.

Having a condom flung unto her head by Daniel Radcliffe.

[faizoff]

I know most people today will remember her from GoT, and a lot of people will remember her from The Avengers.

But me? I'll remember her how I can only assume she truly wanted to be remembered.

Having a condom flung unto her head by Daniel Radcliffe.

That scene was hilarious in Extras.




RIP Olenna

[gmillerdrake]

HBO trying to ruin my weekend by airing GOT all weekend. Watching these early episodes is awesome

[faizoff]

Been listening to the soundtrack of all seasons a lot recently so I'm due for a full re-watch of the show. The boxset got released on 4k, mulling a re-purchase sometime as now I have a 4k setup.

[ariich]

Eh, I don't see this being a show I end up inclined to rewatch. As amazing as most of the seasons are, knowing that most of the big narrative threads and set ups don't actually go anywhere would make it harder to really enjoy I think.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Eh, I don't see this being a show I end up inclined to rewatch. As amazing as most of the seasons are, knowing that most of the big narrative threads and set ups don't actually go anywhere would make it harder to really enjoy I think.

Sadly I feel the same. I did a recap before the last season and I enjoyed that very much but after the finale the magic kinda went away. Hopefully the next show will restore it.

[MirrorMask]

What would be a good point to stop to watch the show?

If we pretend Olenna is the real protagonist, we can end with her death, but then we'd miss on the awesome "loot train attack" as it has been described (dragons and Dothrakis against the Lannister army).

We could pretend Jaimie is the protagonist and that he dies at the end of that episode, when he plunges into the lake after being nearly roasted by Drogon, that could work, after the last truly awesome episode.

Or we could call it a day after the season 7 finale, with the Wall coming down and imaging the impending doom for all of Westeros, but that would mean to relive again the festival of contrivancies and plot conveniences that the whole "let's get a wight to show Cersei" farce was.

[Evermind]

What would be a good point to stop to watch the show?

The ending of season 4