Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[gmillerdrake]

Despite season 8, I'm excited for this.

I think it's the perfect story to follow up GOT with. I liked the idea of the Naomi Watts led prequel idea.....but.....it had the potential to be pretty dull so to speak. With what we know of the Targaryn lineage and history.....the civil war and the fact they ride dragons......this feels like the substance is there and there's the potential for some pretty incredible storytelling.

[hefdaddy42]

I may have already said this, but as someone who read Fire & Blood, on which this new show will be based...I would much rather have seen them go forward with The Long Night.

But...dragons!  So there.

[Adami]

Based SOLELY on the description, I'm not interested.




I got into GoT for fantastic story lines, characters, complex plots, etc. Eventually the show just became DRAGONS AND ZOMBIES AND BATTLES HELL YEA!

And it seems most people like the latter, while I didn't care about that and liked the former.


Feels like this show will be much more of the latter since they figure most people want dragons and explosions and fighting.

[gmillerdrake]

I may have already said this, but as someone who read Fire & Blood, on which this new show will be based...I would much rather have seen them go forward with The Long Night.

I’ve not read Fire and Blood but was told by someone who had that it was good.

Nonetheless there’s a story there that could be really good.

[Stadler]

Based SOLELY on the description, I'm not interested.




I got into GoT for fantastic story lines, characters, complex plots, etc. Eventually the show just became DRAGONS AND ZOMBIES AND BATTLES HELL YEA!

And it seems most people like the latter, while I didn't care about that and liked the former.


Feels like this show will be much more of the latter since they figure most people want dragons and explosions and fighting.

I disagree.

[Adami]

That’s how I know I’m right.

[MoraWintersoul]

I may have already said this, but as someone who read Fire & Blood, on which this new show will be based...I would much rather have seen them go forward with The Long Night.

Same. The myth of the Long Night is the central mystery of the books. It's the one thing I'm most curious about. But chatter in the fandom says they weren't too interested in being faithful to the books, so good riddance.

The budget of GoT was struggling to fit three dragons, and Fire and Blood contains many many more, and bigger ones, so I'm curious to see how this works. Also curious about the casting and how they're going to design the look of the Targs. I'd like to see their purple/indigo eyes and more than two different wigs this time but I'll settle for just the wigs.

[RuRoRul]

Read Fire and Blood early this year and while it's enjoyable to a diehard fan, it is really more like a Wikipedia summary of events than fully fleshed out stories. And a lot of things are hidden behind "one account says this happened, other people say maybe it was this". So as much as there is a bare bone outline of events in the first half of the Targaryen dynasty , any TV show based on it is necessarily going to require a lot of original writing that's "not in the books", even if it's just deciding what parts of Fire and Blood / TWOIAF are true and fleshing out the events to put them on the screen.

One thing I'd say is that even though there are of course battles with dragons, most of what's written about it is more of a political struggle with alliances, betrayals, assassinations. In fact if the show is about the Dance of Dragons (I don't know if it's stated that it will be doing this conflict or is set earlier, for now I'll assume it's based around that time), the early stages of it could be pretty similar to Season 1 of Game Of Thrones. But, stories like that depend on the characters and while there are a couple of figures from the Dance of Dragons that are "super kewl", the material written about these conflicts don't really portray fully drawn characters - again, they're like extended Wikipedia summaries. And frankly, when reading about the Dance of Dragons sometimes it's hard to remember which side some of the people are actually on or what the significance of a particular event is for the overall war. Most of the heavy lifting for making the characters memorable and distinguishable would be on the TV writers and casting.

Also, while whatever Targaryen material they use (I actually found the Jaehaerys I stuff more interesting than the Dance of Dragons in Fire and Blood) should have plenty of political and character driven conflict, you can't get around that this is supposed to be the time with more dragons. While many people claim they care more about story and characters than spectacle and effects, I guarantee you people will be disappointed if the dragons at the height of the Targaryen dynasty are less impressive than those in Season 8 Game of Thrones, which will need significant budget to pull off. Obviously a major Game of Thrones successor show will have plenty of resources, but spending a lot on dragon CGI it means it will be under even bigger pressure to be financially successful quickly.

[MoraWintersoul]

But, stories like that depend on the characters and while there are a couple of figures from the Dance of Dragons that are "super kewl", the material written about these conflicts don't really portray fully drawn characters - again, they're like extended Wikipedia summaries. And frankly, when reading about the Dance of Dragons sometimes it's hard to remember which side some of the people are actually on or what the significance of a particular event is for the overall war. Most of the heavy lifting for making the characters memorable and distinguishable would be on the TV writers and casting.

I see this as a good thing. ASOIAF characters jump off the page and any sort of diversion from how they think and act in the books is jarring on screen, and there was a lot of that in the later seasons. Designing characters almost from scratch seems like a better option.

[hefdaddy42]

Keep in mind that Fire & Blood was book 1 of a proposed 2-book set, which means that if Martin follows his previous examples, he will most likely take time after completing Winds of Winter to write the Fire & Blood sequel instead of moving on to write A Dream of Spring.

 

I am only buoyed by the thought that this also means that Martin will most likely get lapped by showrunners AGAIN in completing one of his stories.

[RuRoRul]

But, stories like that depend on the characters and while there are a couple of figures from the Dance of Dragons that are "super kewl", the material written about these conflicts don't really portray fully drawn characters - again, they're like extended Wikipedia summaries. And frankly, when reading about the Dance of Dragons sometimes it's hard to remember which side some of the people are actually on or what the significance of a particular event is for the overall war. Most of the heavy lifting for making the characters memorable and distinguishable would be on the TV writers and casting.

I see this as a good thing. ASOIAF characters jump off the page and any sort of diversion from how they think and act in the books is jarring on screen, and there was a lot of that in the later seasons. Designing characters almost from scratch seems like a better option.

It's definitely a potential benefit, and if they do go with the Dance of Dragons it could be a much more powerful / memorable portrayal of it than previously written stuff since we'll actually know the characters better and have more investment. I didn't mean it as either a good thing or a bad thing but just something that means it will depend even more on the TV writers being able to flesh out a character and story, a bit like a completely original show based on no source material.

Keep in mind that Fire & Blood was book 1 of a proposed 2-book set, which means that if Martin follows his previous examples, he will most likely take time after completing Winds of Winter to write the Fire & Blood sequel instead of moving on to write A Dream of Spring.

 

I am only buoyed by the thought that this also means that Martin will most likely get lapped by showrunners AGAIN in completing one of his stories.

Don't forget the Dunk & Egg series, I think that's what GRRM said he wanted to return to next after The Winds Of Winter.

At least adapting Fire and Blood they won't have to worry about actor ages. They could even portray Fire and Blood Part 1 in real time and that gives GRRM 130 years to finish Part 2.

[hefdaddy42]

[At least adapting Fire and Blood they won't have to worry about actor ages. They could even portray Fire and Blood Part 1 in real time and that gives GRRM 130 years to finish Part 2.

He won't make it.

[gmillerdrake]

The budget of GoT was struggling to fit three dragons

I thought this was disproven? that HBO came out and said there was never any limitations on budget....they more or less said 'whatever you need you can have'

Now the 'time' that it takes to craft those scenes via CGI I read is a bear......but I think HBO basically gave those guys a blank check when it came to resources for the show.

[RuRoRul]

The budget of GoT was struggling to fit three dragons

I thought this was disproven? that HBO came out and said there was never any limitations on budget....they more or less said 'whatever you need you can have'

Now the 'time' that it takes to craft those scenes via CGI I read is a bear......but I think HBO basically gave those guys a blank check when it came to resources for the show.

There are never no limitations on budget - I think the scale that Season 8 reached was essentially the "whatever you need you can have" version of a TV show. It's often repeated that "HBO wanted to give them more money but they didn't want it", but the correct version I think is that HBO wanted to give them more money for more seasons / episodes but they didn't want it.

WEISS: Yes. To their credit, they put their money where their mouths are — literally stuffed their mouth full of million-dollar bills which don’t exist anymore. They said, “We’ll give you the resources to make this what it needs to be, and if what it needs to be is a summer tentpole-size spectacle in places, then that’s what it will be.”
BENIOFF: HBO would have been happy for the show to keep going, to have more episodes in the final season. We always believed it was about 73 hours, and it will be roughly that. As much as they wanted more, they understood that this is where the story ends.

https://ew.com/tv/2019/04/09/game-of-thrones-season-8-showrunners-interview/

Obviously the exact budget details aren't known but we know that the show had a huge budget in its final seasons... but even with that it's obvious from watching it that there are still some limitations such as not being able to include huge dragon setpieces in every episode, perhaps having to prioritise what creatures take up more of the CGI budget (from my watch of the whole series, I think the show clearly never had major direwolf fight sequences down, and normally used clever filming / editing choices when they did go into battle). Watching The Last Watch as well it's clear that they were pretty stretched to the maximum in terms of filming. So I don't think it was the case that there were so much more resources per episode, but rather that HBO would have kept funding additional seasons / episodes (presumably at a similar level).

All that is to say that I don't think HBO will be spending much more per episode on a new show than on the final season of Game Of Thrones. And so I don't think they're going to be getting more or better dragon setpieces or battles than Game Of Thrones - at least not without some major tradeoff somewhere else. Realistically they'd probably be better off limiting how often they show dragons and focusing on the smaller scale scenes, especially in the first season. But like I said I expect people will be pretty vocally disappointed if the Targaryen dynasty "only has like 2 dragons lol" so it's a bit of a catch 22 in terms of appealing to people.

[MirrorMask]

I'm still puzzled about those precise 73 hours. I don't think anyone could come up with a satisfying 6 episodes ending season, given completely free reins but with just the key points having to be respected (White walkers defeated; Cersei going down; Dany dragon-napalming King's Landing; Bran as a king).

Maybe if starting completely from scratch and discarding all the plot points one could come up with a completely different outline that can be executed in 6 episodes, but details and actual realization aside, I still have a hard time imagining how the general idea of "we'll have three episodes for Winterfell and three to wrap it up including Dany losing it" sounded fine.

[MoraWintersoul]

They could have given up on portraying parts of GRRM's ending, said "happy surprise! this is our story!" and written six episodes that make sense with what they've been building up towards, in their own show, that didn't follow the fourth book, didn't follow the fifth book, and presumably did not follow the unwritten events of the sixth book (which will contain much more high fantasy, if it ever comes out - the proposed cover has one of those freakin' horns on it!). As it stands, this ending can be rationalized in some way on the show (and boy, did they try it), but it's not organic and consistent with what they did before. The show was about fundamentally good characters struggling against fundamentally bad characters to (re)gain feudal power, cool battles, assassins, dragons, ice zombies, and crazy Targs.

[Stadler]

I'm going to pretend that MirrorMask was being facetious about certain plot points - haha! - but honest question, MoraWintersoul:  I sort of thought the magic of the GRRM point of view is that - at least among the main characters, and at least by the standard we live in NOW (as opposed to when the events of Westeros took place) - the characters WEREN'T so clear-cut "fundamentally good/fundamentally bad"?   I suppose Cersei is the hardest to put into this box, but every (main) character had a shadow or a side that betrayed what you THOUGHT they were.   

Bearing in mind I'm only at the start of Season Seven, Sansa, Arya, Jon Snow, Danaerys, Jamie, Tyrion (who am I missing?) all had elements of fundamental good, leavened with what we might consider "fundamental bad".  Doesn't it take a strain of fundamental badness to kill someone out of revenge?  Doesn't the unconditional love of one's child betray a fundamental goodness? 

Again, honest question; I'm not saying you're wrong at all, I'm trying to compare how I've been viewing the show with what you saw. 

[gmillerdrake]

For giggles last night I sifted through the series and watched every 'major' Drogon/dragon scene of the show and loved every second of it. From the first real display of power when Dany uses Drogon to roast the slave master to her laying waste to Kings Landing.....it's really a spectacle.

I'm torn between my favorite Drogon/Dany scene though. It's either when Drogon rescues her from the slave fighting pits in Mereen or when Dany rides him into Battle and lays waste to the Lannister army. Both are really powerful.

I say this because I know there's this underlying battle between fans of the show where those that loved the nuance and detail of character and plot development seemingly lost out to the oohs and aahs of 'dragons and fire and fights'  I was/am a fan of both.

 I loved the nuance of the characters and how the story was being told. BUT....not to beat a dead horse.....after the source material dried up those showrunners were incapable of  matching GRRM's writing. It's painfully obvious. But they did give quite the spectacle to 'watch'.

[MoraWintersoul]

That's his point of view. The show's point of view was to portray all Starks and their allies (+ Tyrion) as heroic, never-wrong avengers of truth and justice, pretty much. I like the Starks, in this cycle they are definitely fighting to correct the wrongs that have been done to them, but they have and will do some bad things that are never questioned and that we're supposed to cheer for. Tyrion was really whitewashed because he's popular, too.

[MirrorMask]

I'm going to pretend that MirrorMask was being facetious about certain plot points - haha! -

FFFFUUUUUUUUUU 

Sorry for having forgot about you!

But yeah, I'm used to big hyperboles and gross simplifications for sarcastic purpouses so don't take anything I wrote at face value 

[Stadler]

I'm going to pretend that MirrorMask was being facetious about certain plot points - haha! -

FFFFUUUUUUUUUU 

Sorry for having forgot about you!

But yeah, I'm used to big hyperboles and gross simplifications for sarcastic purpouses so don't take anything I wrote at face value 

Hey,  I take responsibility for being behind the curve.  I appreciate the consideration of everyone here, but make no mistake: I don't at all feel like any of you have to or should tap dance around; if it gets too revealing, I'll step away.   I was just joking with you (and honestly, you didn't really reveal anything that hadn't crossed my mind in some form.)

[MoraWintersoul]

Y'all keep forgetting Stadler is in this thread too Stadler, don't read gmillerdrake's comment in depth either!

[gmillerdrake]

Y'all keep forgetting Stadler is in this thread too Stadler, don't read gmillerdrake's comment in depth either!

Dang It!!!! I forgot as well......Sorry Bill, I just went back and small fonted what I think could have been spoilerish   

[KevShmev]

I'm torn between my favorite Drogon/Dany scene though. It's either when Drogon rescues her from the slave fighting pits in Mereen or when Dany rides him into Battle and lays waste to the Lannister army. Both are really powerful.

The fighting pits scene was what won me over with the dragons.  I always kind of tolerated them, since dragons and that kind of fantasy stuff is normally not my thing, but once I saw the scene where Drogon rescues her from the fighting pits, I was like, okay, that was awesome. 

Note: Stadler is on Season 7, so what I posted is not a spoiler since it happened in Season 5.

[Stadler]

So... watched the season finale of Game Of Thrones Season SEVEN (so still have season eight to go), and I have some thoughts.

First, I expect Season Eight to blow chunks.  Why? Popular opinion?  Nope; couldn't care less.  It's the two men I've come to call "the two D-bags".   David Benioff (not so much) and D. B. Weiss, whose very initials tell you all you need to know. 

I have been reading the "Trivia" section of IMDB as I watched the Season Seven episodes, and so I have a good feel for what is part of the books (i.e. George RR Martin's work) and what is euphemistically called "new content".   The Martin stuff is almost universally awesome.  Realistic, logic based, HUMAN NATURE based (very important to me) and despite the sensationalism around the show, not sensationalist in and of itself.  Even the Jamie/Cersei thing wasn't done to be controversial; it's actually a very important plot point.  Ned Stark, same thing.  People didn't die Marvel Cinematic Universe-style deaths, they died in the dirt and mud, ugly.   The narrative was dramatic, but driven by plot points and story, not bombastic events.

Cue the Douchebag Material^TM.  Bronn, riding on at the last minute to heroically save Jamie from the dragon's flames.   The Hound (I think) reaching down and saving Jorah Mormont (I think) as he falls from the dragon after Daenarys saved them from the undead.  And now we're seeing, instead of 1,000 characters who come in to serve a plot point and are never seen again (or killed off), we now have "all the stars".  Why is the Hound or Theon Greyjoy at the meeting between Daenarys, Jon Snow/Jon Sand/Aegon, and Cersei?    Brianne of Tarth - in front of Jamie and 50 other people - saying "Fuck oaths"?   TOTALLY out of character, and in my view, lazy story writing.  Euron just grabbing the hand, throwing it down and slinking away?  I know that it was a ploy, but no way Jorah Mormont or The Hound don't see through that. 

I get it; we're wrapping up and so story lines have to converge at some point. But the world of Westeros just got VERY small, VERY quickly.   

I liked some of the developments; I like how Daenarys is coming to trust Jon.  I'm cool with their tryst, even though they are aunt/nephew (not really sure what's the deal there) though I have zero idea how that conundrum is going to be solved. If it's a Martin storyline, it ought to be cool, something subtle, creative, and impactful.  If it's the Douche Boys storyline, it will probably be something quippy, stupid or outright banal.   

I'm indifferent as to the resolution of the Baelish storyline.  I get he had to go, and I get that he was on Sansa's "list" (I don't think she had one, but given that she talked with Arya about that, who knows?) but I can't decide if he was just running out of options or he got careless or the writers are douche bags and made it more obvious, but that last scene where Baelish was telling Sansa "I play a little game" seemed overly obvious and ham-fisted.   Baelish doesn't play games, literal or metaphorical.

Looking forward to Season Eight, but with trepidation.   

[The Walrus]

Stadler, I love how you've latched on to the characters and fully understand what they are (or rather, what they SHOULD have been at this point). I was an ardent defender of season 7 because 8 hadn't rolled around, but its biggest flaws are in plain sight having watched season 8. It's awesome that you've seen why the D&D material doesn't hold up to Martin's.

Also great call on Baelish "not playing games." I never made that note before, but you nailed it. NAILED it.

[Adami]

But dragons dude. I mean, why should we care if a show with zombies and dragons makes any sense? Just enjoy how cool it is. Don’t expect The Godfather or Shakespeare.

[MirrorMask]

I agree, brilliant analysis and understanding of the chara

Stadler, I love how you've latched on to the characters and fully understand what they are (or rather, what they SHOULD have been at this point). I was an ardent defender of season 7 because 8 hadn't rolled around, but its biggest flaws are in plain sight having watched season 8.

Indeed. It's like if Dream Theater, instead of Scenes from a Memory, would have done after Falling Into Infinity a commercial album in full collaboration with Desmond Child. After FII we would have latched onto Trial of Tears for hope of better things, but You Not Me would have been the warning  call and we should have realized it.

Glad that we got SFAM, not so glad about Season 8   

[Evermind]

So... watched the season finale of Game Of Thrones Season SEVEN (so still have season eight to go), and I have some thoughts.

First, I expect Season Eight to blow chunks.  Why? Popular opinion?  Nope; couldn't care less.  It's the two men I've come to call "the two D-bags".   David Benioff (not so much) and D. B. Weiss, whose very initials tell you all you need to know. 

I like you.

[Bolsters]

It's the two men I've come to call "the two D-bags".   David Benioff (not so much) and D. B. Weiss, whose very initials tell you all you need to know. 

I'm quite partial to calling them "2D" (though I can't take credit for having come up with it).

[faizoff]

Stadlers' observations are spot on regarding season seven. I was hoping for less and less of the theatrical/cinematic scale of things but some of it was inevitable I suppose. I still enjoyed for the most part the last two seasons even after a rewatch of the MOST HATED SEASON OF TV (sans Dexter)
Just can't shake that feeling of lost opportunity to end on a blazing note rather than just an OK one.

[MirrorMask]

a rewatch of the MOST HATED SEASON OF TV (sans Dexter)

Oh, the feels  old wounds reopen.

[MoraWintersoul]

I like how Daenarys is coming to trust Jon.  I'm cool with their tryst, even though they are aunt/nephew (not really sure what's the deal there)

You mean, you don't know how they're related, or something else?

[Stadler]

I like how Daenarys is coming to trust Jon.  I'm cool with their tryst, even though they are aunt/nephew (not really sure what's the deal there)

You mean, you don't know how they're related, or something else?

No, at first - and this is likely my fault for confusing the names - I thought they were brother and sister.  I thought this was a sort of reference to Jaime and Cersei. 

[MoraWintersoul]

No, at first - and this is likely my fault for confusing the names - I thought they were brother and sister.  I thought this was a sort of reference to Jaime and Cersei.

Yeah, got you. No, it's not, it's just them not knowing who Jon is at this point. There are loads of cousin marriages in Westeros, and of course, Targaryens practice brother/sister incest and everyone else looks at them disapprovingly, so aunt/nephew is one of those gray area things in this universe.

Think I wrote this in another thread, but ASOIAF was only my second "adult" fantasy series after LotR, and getting smacked in the face with Lannister incest in one of the first chapters was hilarious in hindsight contrasted with the relative sexlessness of Tolkien, I was really wondering if I should read on  Of course, incest-y plotlines were fairly common in fantasy books Martin was reading in the 70's, because they're a quick way to make you realize you're not reading about our world with our moral rules, but a fantasy world where different sorts of rules apply.