Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[KevShmev]

I think he's right In this instance.  I've felt that people are mad because it didn't come to an end in THEIR way.  The showrunners and writers were in a rock and a hard place.  No matter what they did, people would hate it because it wasn't how they envisioned the show ending.

I mostly agree.  I have always agreed that certain parts of the story could have been done better, and I do believe that criticism is legit, but I do think a lot of the over the top bitching is because people didn't get their way (which varied from person to person).

[MirrorMask]

I complain because it was all so rushed and the writing was sloppy and inconsistent. I would have accepted any kind of ending which made sense.

About the Emmys, they're probably gonna win everything, since it's gonna basically be a reward for the entire series. But I pray to the Seven, the Drowned God and the Lord of Light that GoT wins all the technical awards but NOT the ones about writing. I want D&D to realize that they were the problem, not the actors or the fans 

(Granted, some fans were really extreme so the fault is on them, but really, watch Chernobyl and watch GoT season 8 and don't tell me you don't notice the difference in the writing)

[KevShmev]

I complain because it was all so rushed and the writing was sloppy and inconsistent. I would have accepted any kind of ending which made sense.

About the Emmys, they're probably gonna win everything, since it's gonna basically be a reward for the entire series. But I pray to the Seven, the Drowned God and the Lord of Light that GoT wins all the technical awards but NOT the ones about writing. I want D&D to realize that they were the problem, not the actors or the fans 

(Granted, some fans were really extreme so the fault is on them, but really, watch Chernobyl and watch GoT season 8 and don't tell me you don't notice the difference in the writing)

I still need to watch Chernobyl (I was going to last week, but On Demand only had some of the episodes on there, WTF?), but that is an unfair comparison since that was a 1-season only miniseries, while GoT was finishing the series in an 8th season.  What other drama went this long (8 seasons or more) and was still as good as ever at the end?  It is difficult to maintain an extremely high quality over that long of a run.

[Chino]

Despite some thinking he hated it, looks like Conleth Hill didn't after all... https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actor-blames-the-media-for-the-poor-response-to-its-final-season-183500780.html

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

“If it comes to an end, it’s gonna p*** you off no matter that because it’s the end." 

I don't remember people being pissed when Breaking Bad wrapped up.

I think he's right In this instance.  I've felt that people are mad because it didn't come to an end in THEIR way.  The showrunners and writers were in a rock and a hard place.  No matter what they did, people would hate it because it wasn't how they envisioned the show ending.

I don't think that's it at all. People were mad because one of the greatest shows ever devolved into a rushed, cliche piece of trash. Nobody wanted to see Ned get beheaded, the Starks slaughtered at the red wedding, or Hodor getting torn limb from limb, but all of those episodes were rated 100% on Rotten Tomatoes. I don't think the way it ended is what pissed the majority of fans of, it was the phoning in of the last two season (the final one especially) to get there that got people up in arms. So many stories were completely abandoned. Characters started behaving in ways that made no sense. And the plot armor, something was missing early in this show and one of the reasons it was so great, was unbearable.

 D&D fucked up so dad, I don't even feel like rewatching the show despite how good the majority of it was. 

[MoraWintersoul]

D&D fucked up so dad, I don't even feel like rewatching the show despite how good the majority of it was.

Yeah, it's really just the impact of all the pieces coming together except the things the two of them were responsible for and it's absolutely inexcusable. If you like it now, imagine how much you would have liked it if someone actually cared to write a good season of the show, not just do the bare minimum so that they can get out of the project.

[ReaperKK]

Despite some thinking he hated it, looks like Conleth Hill didn't after all... https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actor-blames-the-media-for-the-poor-response-to-its-final-season-183500780.html

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

“If it comes to an end, it’s gonna p*** you off no matter that because it’s the end." 

I don't remember people being pissed when Breaking Bad wrapped up.

I think he's right In this instance.  I've felt that people are mad because it didn't come to an end in THEIR way.  The showrunners and writers were in a rock and a hard place.  No matter what they did, people would hate it because it wasn't how they envisioned the show ending. 

This is how I feel. People will get very invested into their fan theory and when it doesnt play out like they imagined they'll feel disappointed

[Grappler]

Despite some thinking he hated it, looks like Conleth Hill didn't after all... https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actor-blames-the-media-for-the-poor-response-to-its-final-season-183500780.html

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

“If it comes to an end, it’s gonna p*** you off no matter that because it’s the end." 

I don't remember people being pissed when Breaking Bad wrapped up.

I think he's right In this instance.  I've felt that people are mad because it didn't come to an end in THEIR way.  The showrunners and writers were in a rock and a hard place.  No matter what they did, people would hate it because it wasn't how they envisioned the show ending. 

This is how I feel. People will get very invested into their fan theory and when it doesnt play out like they imagined they'll feel disappointed

I let go and stopped reading all of the theories and stuff prior to the final season.  I just wanted the show to take me on a journey.  As a result, I didn't feel near the amount of disappointment that others felt.  Yes, I would have liked a few different things, but I didn't let it bother me.  I have a career, two kids, a home and other responsibilities that are more important than a TV show, even one of my favorite shows of all time.  I can't change the show, so why bother getting all worked up over it?  It's a phenomenal show and I'd rather enjoy it than feel down about it.  So I let all of that personal investment go. 

[Chino]

Despite some thinking he hated it, looks like Conleth Hill didn't after all... https://www.yahoo.com/entertainment/game-of-thrones-actor-blames-the-media-for-the-poor-response-to-its-final-season-183500780.html

And while I do not put a ton of stock into awards show, it was awesome to see it received a record number Emmy nominations for Season 8. Take that, haters.

“If it comes to an end, it’s gonna p*** you off no matter that because it’s the end." 

I don't remember people being pissed when Breaking Bad wrapped up.

I think he's right In this instance.  I've felt that people are mad because it didn't come to an end in THEIR way.  The showrunners and writers were in a rock and a hard place.  No matter what they did, people would hate it because it wasn't how they envisioned the show ending. 

This is how I feel. People will get very invested into their fan theory and when it doesnt play out like they imagined they'll feel disappointed

But again, there were a million Breaking Bad fan theories that didn't play out. Where was the outrage then? Where was the disappointment?

[KevShmev]

But again, there were a million Breaking Bad fan theories that didn't play out. Where was the outrage then? Where was the disappointment?

Apples and oranges.

Breaking Bad had no more than a handful of characters in whom viewers were emotionally invested (Walt, Jesse, Hank), while Game of Thrones had like 85.

But, by all means keep calling the final season trash and proving my point that some fans are over the top with their criticism.

[MirrorMask]

I'm not considering myself over the top if I call trash the following things:

- Dany kinda forgetting about the Iron Fleet
- Said iron fleet being able to spot a flying target in the sky while not being seen by said target
- Three perfect shots to a flying target because a dragon had to die and 39457 missed shots when a dragon had to destroy King's Landing and therefore survive
- Arya, verbatim quote from the behind the scenes, "essentially jumping out of nowhere" to snipe the Night King
- A war council where the sentences "Cersei is losing allies by the hour" and "My enemies grow stronger" are uttered a minute apart (and those "allies lost" were the Iron Islands and Dorne, they weren't even in league with Cersei to begin with)
- The bells never meaning surrender (as per Blackwater episode), Tyrion deciding so, informing Jaimie about the plan and Jaimie failing to deliver the message.... and the people of King's Landing knowing about it anyway
- Arya's quote "I know a killer when I see one" after having literally witnessed Dany carpet bombing a whole town ("I just entered Auschwitz, beware of the nazi, I know a violent regime when I see one")
- Arya not dying 6 times during the burning of King's Landing
- Everyone not dying 6 times during the Long Night short siege of Winterfell
- Dothraki all dying (verbatim quote from the commentary, "What we're seeing is the end of the Dothraki") but respawning because the plot demands it
- Raising the issue of "Oh no, Dany can't use anymore freely her last remaining dragon" and then Dany using freely her last remaining dragon to conquer the city in 15 minutes (that's like giving the Joker a gun that can pierce the Batmobile glasses, and then Batman using freely the Batmobile while the Joker misses 587 times)
- Tyrion not being in the Song of Ice and Fire even though it's impossible to leave out of the chronicles the once and current Hand of the King, the accused killer of Joffrey and the actual killer of Tywin
- Greyworm being in the streets killing Lannister soldiers and then standing next to Dany in the next scene when Jon leaves him behind to go and see Dany

All of these if not real logic errors, are plot contrivances which stand out more considering how the series started. Other "dump popcorn flicks" can get away with it, but we went from the protagonist dying and his son being brutally massacred to every name character surviving being swarmed and trampled by hordes of wights.

Let's play Littlefinger's game, shall we?

Sometimes when I try to understand a person's motives, I play a little game. I assume the worst. What's the worst reason they could possibly have for saying what they say and doing what they do? Then I ask myself, "How well does that reason explain what they say and what they do?"

The worst reason for the two authors to deliver such a short and contrived season is that they got bored with it / didn't foresee they should have ended a story not yet finished, got offered sweet money from Disney to do Star Wars, and ended GoT as fast as possible to jump ship. That, for me, explains kinda well all the points above and the probably other 40-50 I kinda forgot.

Really, whenever you have a doubt for a plot point for the last season, try to answer all the doubts with "They did that because it was in the bullet points list that George Martin gave them, and so they went through the points regardless of the time it took to reach them organically". See how it's a good and logical answer for everything.

Then of course if someone likes it all for the better for them, it's not that their enjoyment is not valid because other people didn't like it.

[The Walrus]

MM is doing a great job pointing out the massive problems with the final season.

If anything, Dany watching a bolt come literally out of the direction she's looking at, right into one of her dragons... that is one of the chief mistakes of the season. They spend THE ENTIRE SHOW building up these dragons. And when you watch that scene, she's looking directly at where the bolt is coming from. And the bolt, when it enters the shot... it so half-assedly, lazily hits Rhaegal, yet blood is spraying everywhere like it was going a hundred miles an hour. That might be the single most egregious mistake in the entire season, and I call it a mistake because it just is not logically sound for that event to happen in that manner.

The fact that the finale got nominated for "best writing" is just utterly baffling. It was serviceable, and it got to the end well enough despite the hurried pace, but "best writing"? No f'ing way...

[KevShmev]

MirrorMask, I agree with some of your points, like the dragon getting killed by the Iron Fleet and Dany somehow not seeing them.  I thought that was lazy writing when it happened, and I believe I said that here at the time (hard to remember).  However, Drogon destroying the Iron Fleet later made sense because Dany dive bombed them from the sky after moving in above the clouds and when the sun was in their eyes, so she was on top of them to take them out before they could react.

However, I think the exact quote about Arya coming out of nowhere to kill the Night King was that she jumped off a pile of dead wights, and the show had shown numerous times what a silent assassin she had become, so that made total sense.

Not enough time to address the rest right now...

[MirrorMask]

MirrorMask, I agree with some of your points, like the dragon getting killed by the Iron Fleet and Dany somehow not seeing them.  I thought that was lazy writing when it happened, and I believe I said that here at the time (hard to remember).  However, Drogon destroying the Iron Fleet later made sense because Dany dive bombed them from the sky after moving in above the clouds and when the sun was in their eyes, so she was on top of them to take them out before they could react.

Yeah, the initial tactic was legit. But I saw a video that pointed out this stuff and it counted all the arrows that were indeed shot at Drogon, and all of them missing. It was an armed fleet, it's not like Euron's ship was the only one armed with scorpions - that way the Red Baron tactic would have been legit.

However, I think the exact quote about Arya coming out of nowhere to kill the Night King was that she jumped off a pile of dead wights, and the show had shown numerous times what a silent assassin she had become, so that made total sense.

Silent assassin? that's why she was screaming while plunging at the Night King? 

The "pile of wights" was written in the script, and we only learnt about it when The Last Watch was released. It was never seen in the episode (cue in joke about not really seeing anything) and even if you see some scattered bodies here and there on the ground, nowhere they pile up so high to justify Arya coming from so high.

I would have preferred if she was hidden in the tree, which btw should have been the heroes' plan all along. If you know, because of Bran's powers, that the Night King will 100% come for him, you should have a contingency plan - place Bran wherever you want and booby trap with dragonglass the hell out of that place. Leave aside selected archers whose sole mission is to snipe the Night King with dragonglass armed crossbows while being hidden.

Instead their plan was letting Reek and 20 sea rapists defend him. Worked brilliantly I'd say, if it was not for Arya  (but this was more a stylstic / plot choice, I'm not gonna count it among the errors reported above)

[KevShmev]

I don't think we needed to see the pile of dead wights; not everything has to be so explicit.

As for the strategy, Jon was never that good at it, to be honest.  He had lost the battle to Ramsay before the Knights of the Vale came in to make the save, and the entire battle plan for the Long Night was pretty flawed, although it's not easy to prepare for a battle vs the undead.

And while we can keep quibbling over plot points, it is worth noting that this is a show where one king was murdered by a shadow demon that had been birthed by a woman hundreds of years old.

[gmillerdrake]

MirrorMask, I agree with some of your points, like the dragon getting killed by the Iron Fleet and Dany somehow not seeing them.  I thought that was lazy writing when it happened, and I believe I said that here at the time (hard to remember).  However, Drogon destroying the Iron Fleet later made sense because Dany dive bombed them from the sky after moving in above the clouds and when the sun was in their eyes, so she was on top of them to take them out before they could react.

Yeah, the initial tactic was legit. But I saw a video that pointed out this stuff and it counted all the arrows that were indeed shot at Drogon, and all of them missing. It was an armed fleet, it's not like Euron's ship was the only one armed with scorpions - that way the Red Baron tactic would have been legit.

Dany and Drogon laying waste to the Iron Fleet was awesome......and the strategy was perfect. Even though the use of the Sun wasn't during the entire assault....the fact remains that although the whole fleet was armed with the Scorpions.....in the heat of the battle like that, especially when Drogon and Dany are just pummeling the ships.....they won't be aiming 'true'.....those are scared....not well thought out shots being taken.

Dany and Drogon were pi$$ed....on a mission, focused and determined to kill every last one of them. The 'stories' of what one Full grown Dragon and well trained rider could do were there for a reason. Of all the things to 'nit pick' about S8 Dany and Drogon's annihilation of the Fleet and Kings Landing is not one of them. She and He were on a revenge mission....fueled by lost loves and there was  nothing that was going to stop them.

[RuRoRul]

Regarding the end of TV series in general, I always thought that Game Of Thrones ended up in the unenviable position of being both a TV show (with all the traits and constraints about what works and doesn't work in how to tell a story in that medium) and being the now sole vehicle for this grand saga and world that would be extremely difficult to fit into a TV series (and is looking like it might be too difficult to fit into a series of epic length novels that can actually be written).

There's a reason there's not many TV dramas with continuous stories that are hitting the peak of their powers in the 9th or 10th seasons. Most big TV shows with well recieved grand finales have something in common - bringing it to an end when the time is right, rather than spinning the wheels to keep the show going because it's currently profitable. People often mention that HBO was willing to renew Game Of Thrones for further seasons as evidence it was "wrong" to end it, but whether networks want to keep a show has everything to do with whether it's still profitable and nothing to do with whether it's the "right" moment for it to end from a story perspective. I'm sure AMC would have been happy to renew Breaking Bad as long as it was profitable, which could likely have been for a few more years after that series' end. Being willing to pull the trigger on the ending despite the fact the show was popular enough to be able to coast for a few more seasons is one of the reasons Breaking Bad had a great ending.

I've watched quite a lot of shows over the years, and all the strongest endings for dramas with strong continuity that I can think of at the moment are after about 5-7 seasons. It seems to me that's about the right length that a TV drama can execute its story without its tropes and tricks getting stale (and that's without even considering the behind the scenes difficulty of keeping the talent any longer). In fact most shows that go on any longer than that, even if they have a relatively decent finale, tend to feel a bit like they're being put out of their misery after going on too long past their best days. Breaking Bad had a good ending, but even in its final season you could see some of the holes that might develop if the show had to continue any longer (mild Breaking Bad spoilers in this sentence)  e.g. the new organised criminal group that served as an antagonist was criticised for not being as memorable, interesting or believable as previous villains - fine for a single season where there are other more important things going on, but if it had been stretched out and we'd been forced to watch Walter White facing off against generic Neo-Nazis while implausibly managing to avoid being discovered as a crime boss for 2 more seasons, it would have got old real fast.

So what's my point regarding Game Of Thrones? Well, I think it shares many of the factors of other serial TV dramas that make bringing it to an end after 5-7 seasons a good idea. And if Game Of Thrones was just a "normal" TV show in terms of the story it had to tell, you can almost see how it could have went. After 4 seasons, some of the biggest conflicts have been resolved and some of the great antagonists are gone (Stark vs. Lannister conflict, Jeoffrey and Tywin dead). Many storylines collided or had climactic moments in the season, and lots of characters are at a natural lull or turning point in their journey (Jon held the Wall against the wildlings, Arya and Tyrion on ships to Essos, Daenerys completed her conquest of Slaver's Bay, etc.). So in the 5th season you have to introduce or focus on more new plots, new locations, new antagonists... and it's perhaps more of a mixed bag. Some new characters or locales don't quite land. Some storylines written to keep existing main characters close to the action feel contrived. It's not necessarily bad - there's still some good stuff, some GREAT stuff, but it's perhaps becoming clear that it will be hard to introduce new situations, characters and conflicts that will live up to the ones of previous seasons, and to juggle all the existing characters and keep giving them satisfying storylines.

Now in the "normal" TV drama landscape, I'd say that's when it's a good time to bring the series to a strong conclusion rather than draw it out. And in fact in Season 6 we see something like that. Some of the new story elements introduced in Season 5 quickly "cut to the chase" and allowed the story to contract. We get some big twists and reveals that have clearly been in the chamber for a long time. Some of the new storylines might still feel somewhat lacklustre or rushed, but for the most part it's easy to not be bothered by that because the characters are hurtling towards the climactic moments of the conflicts and problems they have been dealing with for the past few seasons. And in the last couple of episodes, most of the major characters confront these conflicts in direct, epic and incendiary fashion. We get brilliant, action packed, suspenseful TV, with excellent moments of fan satisfaction, a mystery that's central to two of the main characters (past and present) throughout the series is revealed, and an event that the audience had been waiting for and several main characters had been striving for finally occurs. The show ends with two of the best recieved episodes of TV ever. Wow. What a finish, showrunners take your place among the exalted creators that know how to end a show with a bang!

...except of course that wasn't the end of the show. "It couldn't be!" you might say, but why not? For most shows, if they make the last episode suitably climactic and tie up most of the immediate storylines, then that could just be the end of the show. Well, that's what I meant about Game Of Thrones being something other than just a TV show in terms of what story it has to tell (and why I said it wasn't a "normal" TV show in that respect). It didn't have to just tell a story that satisfied on its own terms in a TV series format, but was now the sole vessel for delivering the conclusion of a saga that exists only in GRRM's head and some sparse cliff notes he gave the showrunners. If you think about it, not many other shows are burdened with that sort of "responsibility" of absolutely having to complete a storyline that wasn't created purely for the show. It would be like a historical drama reaching the point where it's a good point for that particular show to come to an end, but having to continue because it hadn't "completed history" yet.

Game Of Thrones is basically a TV drama that followed a TV show drama cycle basically as well as any I've ever seen, but then also gave its best shot at portraying an ending to an epic saga that really probably requires several more books to be done proper justice (if it can even be done). I know describing it like that might paint a pretty bleak picture of Season 7 and 8, and I'm not trying to say they aren't great in themselves. But that bleak picture does put in perspective a bit some of the limitations of those seasons and of the ending to the show in general. Now I think that even considering their plan for the ending they could have structured and paced it a bit differently across the two seasons, but I think dragging the show for several more seasons without the quality suffering even more is a pipe dream, and I think even if it did go on longer it still wouldn't be anywhere near the optimal amount of space to fit the complete conclusion to ASOIAF so it would always face similar problems at the end.

[KevShmev]

Great post!

I don't think it's a coincidence that the dramas often thought of to have had awesome finales and/or final seasons (Breaking Bad, Six Feet Under, etc.) were not ones that went more than 5 seasons.  It is not easy to keep up that consistency over the long haul.  Hell, even the Sopranos struggled quite a bit in its last two seasons (6a and 6b), and I'd call that the 2nd best drama ever (and many call it the best).

Even if you think the last season or two was trash or whatever, it seems unfair to blame the writers.  Once they ran out of source material, they basically had to write the bulk of it on their own, and it seems unfair to knock them for not being as good a writers as GRRM is. 

I know will some say, "Blah, blah, Season 8 was still trash, blah, blah," but I think you have to consider all factors.  I will repeat myself for the 188th time and say that I wish Season 8 had been better, but it was still good overall; it just wasn't great. 

[MoraWintersoul]

Regarding the end of TV series in general, I always thought that Game Of Thrones ended up in the unenviable position of being both a TV show (with all the traits and constraints about what works and doesn't work in how to tell a story in that medium) and being the now sole vehicle for this grand saga and world that would be extremely difficult to fit into a TV series (and is looking like it might be too difficult to fit into a series of epic length novels that can actually be written).

GRRM was a TV writer, and when he set out to write a fantasy epic, he wanted to write something that was completely unadaptable and unfilmable, unlike his horror and other fantasy works. D&D convinced him that it would work out with modern technology and TV audiences getting used to watching sprawling TV series, HBO threw money at them, and all three parties are ultimately very happy with the outcome. The fans aren't happy. I understand the need to go against the wave, look for the good in the bad, and deconstruct the circle jerk of GOT ENDING BAD that's currently going on, but the displeasure of the fans is absolutely unprecedented, and I think any unbiased person will have to agree there has been a significant dip in quality even compared to  the previous three seasons, let alone the first four.

We can disagree on the logic of the events - though I don't see why we would, when we have black-on-white evidence for their logic being "Dany kinda... forgot about the Iron Fleet" and "Arya comes essentially out of nowhere because we decided that's the coolest option". Not to mention the endlessly self-respawning Dothraki, which almost makes it look like three different people wrote their episodes and didn't even check to see what the others wrote before them. My biggest gripe with the last season is that they really upped the ante on giving actors they like ~big character moments~.

Ned got beheaded by a petulant boy king, Tywin was shot while he was on the toilet, and Robert got killed by a freakin' boar, but a pre-teen girl has to be evenly matched with a goddamn giant for several seconds and survive an almost certainly lethal blow for a bit, because she has to have "a great death". She would have been insta-pancaked by that thing in any season before this, because Game of Thrones isn't a regular fantasy series.

Arya can get the big kill and then be the person on the ground to witness the destruction of KL when even the horse she rode out on would have been the more emotional choice - but then Arya doesn't get so many minutes of action and scared-acting, and doesn't get to deliver her big killer line, which they probably thought was super badass.

The books are setting up pretty much anyone but Cersei to be the late game human villain, but D&D like Lena Headey so much that they want to keep her when all logic has expired, literally creating the problem of "why doesn't Dany just roll up there and one-shot incinerate the queen with basically zero allies who everyone should be hating" that they've been trying to solve unsuccessfully for two seasons. They gave her a crown she shouldn't have after her boy died, money she shouldn't have to buy mercenaries and peasants that should be revolting still on her side just to keep her in the iron seat. Yeah, the last book got a lot of shit for setting up new characters that will fuck shit up in King's Landing before Dany gets there, but it turns out that without a popular person to rule on some sort of precedent and new alliances being forged, you have a power vacuum that can only naturally be used by a person rolling in with a professional army, a savage army and three freakin' dragons.

Bronn is popular, so we'll have him teleporting from place to place impotently threatening other people and give him something in the end so that the people who like him can smirk and say "lol that's my boy Bronn for ya". The character who didn't know what a loan was in season 3 gets to control the kingdom's money.

On the contrary, the person who they know is the future king of all of Westeros gets left out of one season of the show entirely and then has a bare minimum of lines in the final season, when he should be the most important person there. Just because D&D aren't fans of magic, don't like writing any storylines directly connected to it, and aren't all that into Bran's character. Reading just one Bran chapter beyond the Wall would probably blow the minds of people who think portraying him like this is inevitable, but we agreed not to talk about the books.

The real Jon Snow would have had some Thoughts about all the shit that transpired. He is a clever, resourceful guy with a big heart, always guided by the teachings of his mentors, but not afraid to bend the rules a tad more than Ned, and that's why he is valued as a leader. And his death will probably change him, making him more guided by primal instinct, and angrier. But the only side of Jon D&D like is his broody side, and they like the "you know nothing, Jon Snow" meme so they will build up all other characters as strategists and leaders at his expense, and then write two lines for him to alternate in the final season of the show. Forget about Jon of the books, the Jon of the first few seasons would hardly recognize this guy. His final tragic act of transgression is flattened, because how can you not kill Hitler with a dragon who just needlessly killed half a million people. Instead of a controversial choice, it was an inevitability.

I don't wanna talk about Tyrion and Varys 

[MirrorMask]

Great posts from RuRoRul and Moira (you're preaching to the converted here Moira  )

Even if you think the last season or two was trash or whatever, it seems unfair to blame the writers.  Once they ran out of source material, they basically had to write the bulk of it on their own, and it seems unfair to knock them for not being as good a writers as GRRM is. 

I guess in principle we all agree this. We just have different opinions on what qualifies as "not good as GRRM", what as "not great, not terrible", and what as "geez you really did phone it in uh?"

[soupytwist]

There seems to be some revision going on with GoT now it's concluded.  A lot of complaints that the show lost it's way once it overtook GRRM novels and the last TWO seasons are trash.   I recall a few complaints over one episode in Season 7 whereby Dany's got to rescue the party in the north via teleporting - but that was mostly forgiven, by a strong finale.   The general concensus pre Season 8 was that it was infact Season 5 that was the weak Season.   Even the first two episodes of Season 8 got good reviews and feedback - it wasn't until Anya took down the Nightking that the backlash started.

[MirrorMask]

Season 7 was subpar just as Season 8, but most didn't realize it at the time because it had legitimate awesome moments (more characters interacting, the action really getting on, memorable and kickass scenes such Olenna's end and Dany's attack) and, most of all, the hope and promise of a good ending. I absolutely disliked the episode Beyond the Wall but the anticipation and hope for a strong final six episodes were enough to overlook it. How can you be bitter when the final shot of the season is the Night King tearing down the wall with an ice dragon and the undead marching in? we were finally ready for the fireworks.

As I previously said, we were finally getting World War II as promised for 8 years. It's when Hitler got shanked the moment he entered Poland that, as you said, the backlash started.

Season 5 was also inferior but at least it had Hardhome. Season 6 was a return to form, not perfect but Battle of the Bastards (annoying Rohirrim ripoff moment aside) and especially The Winds of Winter really elevated the season. The entire initial sequence of The Winds of Winter with Light of the Seven playing out is one of the top moments of the entire series.

[ariich]

There seems to be some revision going on with GoT now it's concluded.  A lot of complaints that the show lost it's way once it overtook GRRM novels and the last TWO seasons are trash.   I recall a few complaints over one episode in Season 7 whereby Dany's got to rescue the party in the north via teleporting - but that was mostly forgiven, by a strong finale.   The general concensus pre Season 8 was that it was infact Season 5 that was the weak Season.   Even the first two episodes of Season 8 got good reviews and feedback - it wasn't until Anya took down the Nightking that the backlash started.

I agree with this. Season 5 was weak. Seasons 6 and 7 had their flaws and the writing quality wasn't up to the first four seasons, but they were still solid, had amazing highs, and the overall narrative still felt exciting.

[cramx3]

^ what he said, I thought it was well known season 5 was a clunker which timed with GRRM leaving, they were able to do pretty solid seasons in 6 and 7 though although it was clear the writing took a major step down.  I don't think there's any revision going on from what I've known/saw/expressed myself in real time.

[The Walrus]

I think season 6 was the best post-book-material season of the show. It was massive, it was satisfying to watch, and logically most of the events made sense. There's maybe a couple things I had serious issue with and I think they were minor... which season had the 'bad pussy' line? 

[MirrorMask]

Season 5, I assume the last episode because they were saying farewell and that's when Myrcella was kiss-poisoned.

[ariich]

^ what he said, I thought it was well known season 5 was a clunker which timed with GRRM leaving, they were able to do pretty solid seasons in 6 and 7 though although it was clear the writing took a major step down.  I don't think there's any revision going on from what I've known/saw/expressed myself in real time.

Interesting question as to whether there's revisionism going on. Maybe the people saying the last two seasons were awful always said that about season 7 at the time, they were just in a small minority at that stage so the general overall attitude was closer to what you and I and soupy are expressing.

[ariich]

Season 5, I assume the last episode because they were saying farewell and that's when Myrcella was kiss-poisoned.

Oh god, the Dorne plot was the worst part of season 5. I remember after the also-awful first episode of season 6 I wasn't sure whether the show had just gone off the rails or if they needed to quickly kill off the whole Dorne thread. Ended up thankfully being the latter the show was mostly back on form for a couple of seasons.

[Adami]

I wonder how much of how people reacted (at the time) to seasons 5-7 are, at least partially, due to the fact that people knew it would keep going. There is always the "well....maybe this will lead to something" or "maybe this will get better next season" or even "They don't have to do XYZ this year, so I'm fine with what we got" and then with season 8, there's none of that. We know it's the end. No chance to improve, no chance to get back to things that were strangely dropped, no chance for steering things back on track.

Just a thought.

[The Walrus]

I wonder how much of how people reacted (at the time) to seasons 5-7 are, at least partially, due to the fact that people knew it would keep going. There is always the "well....maybe this will lead to something" or "maybe this will get better next season" or even "They don't have to do XYZ this year, so I'm fine with what we got" and then with season 8, there's none of that. We know it's the end. No chance to improve, no chance to get back to things that were strangely dropped, no chance for steering things back on track.

Just a thought.

That was my mentality. Season 5 was the first season I could jump in and be part of the conversation from week to week, and although I hadn't read the books and people were crapping on season 5's quality, I was optimistic because there was still plenty of show left. But after The Long Night in season 8, I couldn't find any of that optimism. It was just a weekly wait for the finale; the sets were destroyed, the actors long gone, etc. No hope to course correct. So even though I think season 5 was worse than season 8 (from the viewpoint that at least season 8 had a bunch of entertaining visuals and fighting), season 5 at least gave me some hope for the next season. Season 8 just made me sad.

[ariich]

I wonder how much of how people reacted (at the time) to seasons 5-7 are, at least partially, due to the fact that people knew it would keep going. There is always the "well....maybe this will lead to something" or "maybe this will get better next season" or even "They don't have to do XYZ this year, so I'm fine with what we got" and then with season 8, there's none of that. We know it's the end. No chance to improve, no chance to get back to things that were strangely dropped, no chance for steering things back on track.

Just a thought.

Hmm, could be a factor. It's not like that for me but it's something similar/related. Up to and including season 7 there was always lots of setting up, as you'd expect with any show. It was entertaining, it was gripping, and there was a sense of mystery because we didn't know where it would go or how all these huge arcs would come together. For me, the big let down in season 8 was that those big arcs didn't come together at all really. Like Katt says, after The Long Night it felt a bit like so much of the set up that had thrilled and excited many of us didn't actually mean anything.

[MirrorMask]

I wonder how much of how people reacted (at the time) to seasons 5-7 are, at least partially, due to the fact that people knew it would keep going. There is always the "well....maybe this will lead to something" or "maybe this will get better next season" or even "They don't have to do XYZ this year, so I'm fine with what we got" and then with season 8, there's none of that. We know it's the end. No chance to improve, no chance to get back to things that were strangely dropped, no chance for steering things back on track.

Exactly this. As I said, the hope for a good ending and the investment in the storylines keep people going on and make them overlook the least good stuff.

Now we know that Beyond the Wall was just a harbringer of things to come - all flashy shocking moments and no substance or plot development behind it. The episode is as bad (where bad stands for "We went from the deep intricacy and relative realism of the first four seasons to mediocre Hollywood action movies where appearance is more important than substance") as The Long Night and The Bells, but we couldn't know at the time, and we were all bracing for a great ending. Had we got it, we would have said "Well, season 7 had a bit too many hollywoodish moments but MAN did they step it up for the final season", just as we all more or less agree that Season 6 was a great improvement over Season 5. But now we see that all the key ingredients for Season 8's debacle were right there.

Just imagine that after Falling Into Infinity DT went full commercial and hired Desmond Child to write half the album - looking back we would have realized that You Not Me was just a sign of things to come, but instead we got SFAM and Jordan and they got rid of the label involvement so who cares about You Not Me, it was just one song. (And for the record, I actually like it  )

[The Walrus]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BGr0NRx3TKU

Lindsay Ellis is a YouTuber who makes very compelling, entertaining, and educational videos analyzing pop culture and the themes, background issues, etc. of choice works. She is an infrequent uploader but the quality of her videos makes the wait worthwhile. This is an hour-long video, just uploaded a few days ago, serving as part 2 of a GoT post-mortem. It's well worth watching for any fan of the show who has passionate feelings about seasons 7 and (especially) 8.

[Progmetty]

D&D fucked up so dad, I don't even feel like rewatching the show despite how good the majority of it was.

Yeah, it's really just the impact of all the pieces coming together except the things the two of them were responsible for and it's absolutely inexcusable. If you like it now, imagine how much you would have liked it if someone actually cared to write a good season of the show, not just do the bare minimum so that they can get out of the project.

+1
Problem is that it even significantly reduced my anticipation for The Winds of Winter. I spent years with an unshakeable excitement level about it but not so much anymore.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

D&D fucked up so dad, I don't even feel like rewatching the show despite how good the majority of it was.

Yeah, it's really just the impact of all the pieces coming together except the things the two of them were responsible for and it's absolutely inexcusable. If you like it now, imagine how much you would have liked it if someone actually cared to write a good season of the show, not just do the bare minimum so that they can get out of the project.

+1
Problem is that it even significantly reduced my anticipation for The Winds of Winter. I spent years with an unshakeable excitement level about it but not so much anymore.

Yea i'm in the same boat. I was SO excited for the last season and the buildup from season 1 until S8 has been full of excitment but once I finished the season I couldn't feel actually anything despite this being one of my favourite shows ever which really bummed me out. I kind of just left the show whithout feeling any urge to even write in this thread.

The last episode has 4.2 on imdb, such a sad ending to one of the greatest TV shows ever. 

I will say this though, Jon putting a knife in Daenerys was really emotional for me so I was pleased to feel some kind of emotions.

[MirrorMask]

Why would the show damper your anticipation for The Winds of Winter? the plot of the books is already vastly different from that of the show, and the endings of the show will make sense with 7000+ pages of explanation for the plot and the characters' choices. If at all, you should be MORE excited for the books if the show ending wasn't up to par!