Author Topic: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread  (Read 628479 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline gmillerdrake

  • Proud Father.....Blessed Husband
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 19151
  • Gender: Male
  • 1 Timothy 2:5
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7210 on: May 14, 2019, 12:28:44 PM »
MirrorMask, keep in mind that the show runners get misquoted or quoted out of context. What they said on this occasion was that she didn't plan to do it and that it was a snap decision because of what had happened. That doesn't mean her story arc wasn't already going in that direction or that it was a completely new idea, only that she didn't decide in advance that she was going to kill everyone.

Exactly. She had agreed with Tyrion during their meeting in the throne room at Dragonstone that should the bells ring in surrender she’d stop. She even signaled approval to  Grey Worm. Even he waited a bit after she started her rampage to engage the surrendered soldiers.
Without Faith.....Without Hope.....There can be No Peace of Mind

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13326
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7211 on: May 14, 2019, 12:31:47 PM »
MirrorMask, keep in mind that the show runners get misquoted or quoted out of context. What they said on this occasion was that she didn't plan to do it and that it was a snap decision because of what had happened. That doesn't mean her story arc wasn't already going in that direction or that it was a completely new idea, only that she didn't decide in advance that she was going to kill everyone.

Well, her story arc was leading her to be more ruthless and violent, but the step from being a conqueror to being a mass murderer was a spur of the moment decision... too easy. Martin isn't Shakespeare and Shakespeare is not one of his influences, but one thing I like about MacBeth is that you can more or less sympathize with him until the end, and feel his unease with the deeds he's done. He's victim of the sunk costs fallacy - he's a good guy, but he gets tempted into becoming greater and so he kills the king, then he has to kill Banquo, then other people... by the time he's a full fledged tyrant, it's because it's easier to go on than go back. Sure, killing a king is already a worse starting point for MacBeth, but still his downward spiral is constant and logical. I'll just get behind RuRoRoal's explanation (which doesn't differ much from yours, a message for Westeros and future generations) 'cause I like it more than "she snaps in the pressure of the moment"  :D

(I hate that I love this world so much that I can't let some of this stuff go. I get it, it's just a show/story in the end.)

Hey, our passions such as music, books and movies are all things worth fighting and arguing for. If you don't get passionate about this what do you wanna get passionate about? politics?  :biggrin:
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7212 on: May 14, 2019, 01:00:13 PM »
Kattle, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that my frustration is BECAUSE of how much I love this show.

I also watch a bunch of other TV. If The Orville has examples of bad writing, for instance, I'm a bit annoyed but I move on. Not super important to me. When Fresh off the Boat became a horrible show, I just stopped watching. I didn't care. It's about how important those shows are to us. The higher we place them, the further they fall. So the speed at which we seem them falling is pretty proportional to how high we elevated these shows. None of us here (I assume) just hate the show. I assume we'd just post other things in other threads if that were the case.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline Grappler

  • Posts: 3414
  • Gender: Male
  • Victory, Illinois Varsity
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7213 on: May 14, 2019, 01:05:53 PM »
But then using that logic, this goes back to what I and others brought up last week about episode 4. If the showrunners' word is gospel, then they contradicted themselves, because Dany "forgot about the Iron Fleet" yet was talking about it in the war room at Winterfell. And the article does explain how she became an increasingly more hostile murderer. She murdered over 150 people in a single city. And she's always done it with fire. A conqueror has to murder many people in their world. Not to the scale of King's Landing, but she has a lot of blood on her hands by the time she's queen of Meereen. (I hate that I love this world so much that I can't let some of this stuff go. I get it, it's just a show/story in the end.)

Re: Iron Fleet.  She can talk about it in the war room, but it's possible to be up and flying around on a dragon, not paying attention and WHAM, an arrow strikes out of nowhere because you're not looking for it...i.e., forgetting that the risk is there.  Those ships were hidden behind a rock as well, out of sight until it was too late.   I'm pretty sure right before the arrow strikes the second dragon, they show her just meandering around in the sky, having a peaceful ride, not focusing on what could be below them....she also had no clue that the arrows and scorpions were improved.  The last time she faced one, it wasn't as deadly.

That's how I took it - she didn't see them and lost a dragon by surprise.  In this week's episode, she came screaming down out of the sun, stayed low, stayed very mobile and took out the ships, then took out the ones on the wall in a line.  So by that time, she was very much aware of the risk and took out the most dangerous weapons right off the bat. 

Offline DragonAttack

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 4163
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7214 on: May 14, 2019, 01:11:21 PM »
...going along with Dragon Attack's Queen thread has been like taking a free class in Queen knowledge. Where else are you gonna find info like that?!

Offline The Walrus

  • goo goo g'joob
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17221
  • PSA: Stairway to Heaven is in 4/4
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7215 on: May 14, 2019, 01:19:48 PM »
Kattle, I can't speak for anyone else, but I can tell you that my frustration is BECAUSE of how much I love this show.

I also watch a bunch of other TV. If The Orville has examples of bad writing, for instance, I'm a bit annoyed but I move on. Not super important to me. When Fresh off the Boat became a horrible show, I just stopped watching. I didn't care. It's about how important those shows are to us. The higher we place them, the further they fall. So the speed at which we seem them falling is pretty proportional to how high we elevated these shows. None of us here (I assume) just hate the show. I assume we'd just post other things in other threads if that were the case.

I totally get that, and I probably should have mentioned that at some point, 'cause I totally get being frustrated with something you really like and being unable to get past some glaring issues. I didn't mean to imply anybody hates the show, certainly not. I love talking about this with ya'll even if we're on totally opposite ends! That's the beauty of fandom.  :biggrin:

I don't watch quite as much TV as a lot of other people (I have Stranger Things to look forward to, and Westworld and Better Call Saul, but that's literally everything on my calendar for the next year and a half). I know you definitely watch more than I do just based on the Marvel stuff alone. So I guess my eggs are kind of all in one basket and that's my own problem for sure.
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
"I don't worry about nothing, no, 'cause worrying's a waste of my time"

Offline RuRoRul

  • Posts: 1668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7216 on: May 14, 2019, 01:20:47 PM »
RuRoRol made a better job at explaining her mindset using the Tarly example. But in the article there's a troubling quote:

(Note: The showrunners have said Daenerys burned King’s Landing spontaneously because she got mad while looking at the Red Keep, as it was a “symbol of everything that was taken from her.” I think this is stupid and I don’t agree with it.)

Well, but the problem is.... they are the showrunners. They decided it and wrote it and that's then the reason. Find all the connections you want between Metropolis part 1 and Scenes from a Memory - once the band themselves comes out and say "We were only half joking when we called the first song Part 1", it means only one thing, that pulling out Scenes from a Memory was a clever retroactive decision, not something planned since the days of Images and Words.

So the official explanation for reaching the plot point they desperately needed to reach, Dany goes full Targaryen, is "She got pissed off at the sight of the Red Keep". And that's it.

 :lol Well look, I'm never going to defend the "Inside the Episode"s as being well conceived. I've always thought the commentary on them regarding story choices was not that helpful or informative, and some of it does make you question the decision making of the writers. But, I think the bolded part there is the disconnect. Regardless of what explanations have ever been given in Inside the Episode, I don't think they have ever said anything along the lines of "This is the reason for ____... and that's it". I don't think they have ever suggested that they were giving a complete, definitive, exhaustive explanation of the show. And I don't think the format lends itself to giving a very complete explanation of the writing either. So while I know it might seem a stretch to argue something contrary to something said in an "Inside the Episode", I definitely don't think there's any reason not to think something can be added and that our interpretation must be limited only to what they said in them.

For example, I gave reasons why Daenerys burned the Tarlys based on her dialogue in that scene. But Randyll Tarly also says to her shortly before "You cannot send me to the Wall. You are not my queen." Maybe that blatant denial of her identity as queen angered her and made her want to burn him right there. And in the "Inside the Episode" for that scene, maybe the writers would mention that (and maybe they actually do - I don't remember the Inside the Episode for that one). Would that mean that "Dany burned them because she was angry. That's it." And that additional interpretation (that doesn't require extensive speculation, just examining the dialogue on that scene) is definitely invalid? I know I definitely don't think so.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 02:06:52 PM by RuRoRul »

Offline The Walrus

  • goo goo g'joob
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17221
  • PSA: Stairway to Heaven is in 4/4
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7217 on: May 14, 2019, 02:31:43 PM »
Another unpopular opinion... So I know hindsight is 20/20 and all that, but D&D have said they wanted to do a 70-hour movie, essentially. Well if they knew they had an arbitrary number in mind why on earth did they waste so much of the first few seasons with so much walking, so much downtime, so many pieces just moving sooo slowly, all the wasted screentime with Dorne, etc. and every single time Bran came on screen even on my first time through the show I hated it because nothing ever came out of his story. It only got interesting once they reached the Weirwood tree. If they had spent less time filming nudity for the sake of nudity and really cut to the chase early on maybe they would've had more time in the back half of the epic story to really set up for some of the plot that's going down now. Just food for thought, maybe the early seasons actually hindered the later seasons in this way. I bet D&D planned on George finishing the books and having some way to integrate all the magic and prophecy and Bran stuff, but without WoW to guide them, they were up shit creek with half a paddle.

There's kind of a reason South Park named one of the parts of their 3-episode GoT parody trilogy "Titties & Dragons," because up to that point, well, lots of needless nudity and sex. I think those came out around season 3 or 4, so, yeah.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 02:38:09 PM by Kattelox »
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
"I don't worry about nothing, no, 'cause worrying's a waste of my time"

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7218 on: May 14, 2019, 03:22:05 PM »
MirrorMask, keep in mind that the show runners get misquoted or quoted out of context. What they said on this occasion was that she didn't plan to do it and that it was a snap decision because of what had happened. That doesn't mean her story arc wasn't already going in that direction or that it was a completely new idea, only that she didn't decide in advance that she was going to kill everyone.

Exactly. She had agreed with Tyrion during their meeting in the throne room at Dragonstone that should the bells ring in surrender she’d stop. She even signaled approval to  Grey Worm. Even he waited a bit after she started her rampage to engage the surrendered soldiers.

Good point.  Had it been a set plan to go scorched earth on King's Landing no matter what, I have to think that she would have told Grey Worm, if no one else.

I also don't think Dany ever thought Cersei would ever actually surrender...that thought likely never entered her head.  So when the bells rang, Dany got really angry and probably thought, "no way is Cersei getting off this easy," especially after Cersei not only refused to surrender days earlier, but beheaded her best friend in the process.  Now, attacking just the Red Keep instead of the city would have obviously been a lot better, but she obviously has chosen to rule by fear now, and destroying King's Landing was a means to that end. 

Offline RuRoRul

  • Posts: 1668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7219 on: May 14, 2019, 03:29:13 PM »
Well I definitely can't agree on wishing the first four seasons had cut out the "walking and downtime", it was slow paced yes but that was a lot of what allowed the complexity of the story and the world to build. I don't think the problem with the "70 hour movie" idea is that the first half was too slow and should have been cut down, the problem was that the story probably wasn't ideally told as a "70 hour movie". Despite having a go at my own "inside the episode" interpretations I can't speak for D&D, but I strongly suspect they didn't start out Game of Thrones with this idea about the length of the full story, and were instead more concerned about things like making a decent pilot episode, doing a good job of adapating A Game Of Thrones and hoping to get renewed for a second season. This whole idea about how long they wanted the show to be didn't really get talked about until around S3-S4, which is when I guess they tried to think about how they could realistically complete the series, with actors, contracts and their own creative energry considered.

I'll agree about Dorne though - obviously it wasn't completely wasted screentime, but I think it was their attempt to handle a new post ASOS (post season 4) storyline in Game of Thrones that didn't really work out, and I think they actually realised that. I'm going off the top of my head since it might be difficult to find the source for some of these claims but hopefully you can roll with me here - I believe that it wasn't ever planned or certain that the show was going to go to Dorne at all, but one of the writers (Bryan Cogman, who's considered one of the most knowledgeable about the books) made the case to include it after season 4 (when Oberyn had been a successful element of the show). However I believe they were aware that their rendition of Dorne didn't work that well, because of the way they very quickly tied up that storyline at the start of season 6 (and this was not always going to be the case, as the actor who played Doran Martell said that he had originally been contracted for 4 episodes in season 6). So I think that the Dorne storyline was somewhat of a waste of screentime, because it was the show's attempt to do a really condensed and altered version of a Book 4 and 5 plot that didn't really work, and if they had a better idea of what needed to be included for their "70 hour movie" version they might have used that time differently.

As for the nudity, I don't think there was that much screen time "wasted" with nudity, certainly not to the extent you could have replaced it with scenes that help reach this last part of the story faster. We have to remember that Game of Thrones' status in pop culture has changed quite a bit since it first aired. The fact this was a fantasy series that included adult themes and sex and nudity was quite different, and was one of the things that set it apart from things like Lord of the Rings or Harry Potter for audiences. It was HBO adult drama plus fantasy. Some of the nudity may be "unnecessary" when we judge it from a story perspective now but I think it was needed to help set the tone and the expectations for what could be part of a fantasy story when audiences weren't used to it. Much of the random nudity in the show did drop off considerably over the seasons, in part because the audience already knew what they were dealing with by then and didn't need to have it shoved in their faces. But I actually don't think you could cram in much more that's helpful to the story if you take out the nudity - they weren't called "sexposition" scenes for nothing, they often included valuable information or extra character motivations alongside pointless (or just tone setting) nudity. If anything, maybe Season 8 needed a few "sexposition" scenes to flesh out some of the background  :lol

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7220 on: May 14, 2019, 03:31:24 PM »
Dorne was awesome. Ya'll nuts.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline The Walrus

  • goo goo g'joob
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17221
  • PSA: Stairway to Heaven is in 4/4
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7221 on: May 14, 2019, 03:33:55 PM »
Totally understand what you're saying, MM. Just to expand on one thing: here is an interview with D&D as season 2 was wrapping shows they wanted to do a 70 or 80 hour story if the show were to get to that level of success.

Weiss: We went into this with the potentially over-ambitious notion that to get to the end we would have 70 or 80 hours of continuous, consistent film stories. I don’t know that anybody’s ever really done that before. We’d love to do it.

https://ew.com/article/2012/03/30/game-of-thrones-showrunners-season-2/

(And I'm not saying I WANT the earlier seasons to have been cut down, but like I said, in hindsight, it seems that there was an awful lot of stuff that could have been cut out in the long run. But again - hindsight is 20/20. Myrcella might as well have been written out of the show from the start, honestly!)
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
"I don't worry about nothing, no, 'cause worrying's a waste of my time"

Offline RuRoRul

  • Posts: 1668
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7222 on: May 14, 2019, 03:49:56 PM »
Well I'll stand corrected - I guessed that they probably only started thinking about the length of the full thing once they had successfully got to the Red Wedding (which was probably the next big target to reach after completing the first season), but looks like they indeed had that idea even earlier.

Still, I don't really see that there was a lot of stuff from the early seasons (where they both made a quality standalone TV show and did a pretty close adaptation of Martin's books) that could have been cut to help complete the story. Maybe in the middle seasons of the show they could have taken some different paths that might lead them more easily towards this ending of their 70 hour movie, but of course that would have meant abandoning the attempt to remain faithful to GRRM's books (or rather abandoning it even more than they did), which would have been controversial to say the least  :lol




Offline cramx3

  • Chillest of the chill
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 34212
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7223 on: May 14, 2019, 03:52:22 PM »
Maybe trim some dialogue, but there's so much of that stuff in the early seasons that is meaningful in the long run.  I'm not sure there is much to cut or that I would want cut.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7224 on: May 14, 2019, 06:57:45 PM »
I re-watched the last episode and came about with similar thoughts as I did the first time around.  Really, really good, and highly entertaining, despite a few flaws.

My only somewhat major quibble, which I didn't mention the other day because I figured there'd be enough major quibbles from others, is still that the Jaime/Euron fight was kind of absurd.  How Jaime was able to walk up to where Cersei was after taking those wounds was more than a bit crazy, and Euron breaking the 4th wall by saying he was the man who killed Jaime as he was dying was ridiculously cringe-worthy.  And Jaime should have finished the kill instead of leaving him there to die.

I can't get over how amazing the episode looked and how stunning the use of music was.  The clips of the people of King's Landing dying or running for their lives while that slow droning music played were like something out of war movie.  Amazing cinematography.  And leaving aside the act itself for a minute, some of those shots of buildings collapsing due to the dragon fire were nothing short of magnificent.  This is an episode I would love to have seen in a cinema (as opposed to my big ass smart TV).



Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7225 on: May 14, 2019, 07:16:31 PM »
Okay, so I'm just going to post my thoughts about the controversial moment in bullet points, and I'll try not to harp on stuff that has already been talked about to death.

- There is a difference between foreshadowing and telecasting something. Her going mad the way she did was telecasted this episode.
- The idea of her going "mad" just didn't make much sense. It essentially says that there is something in Targyrian blood that makes them insane. Not only is this a major setback for mental illness discussions, but it essentially rules out any former, current, or future character development. You basically gave her bad guy midichlorians. They took it outside of the realm of character, and just made it something genetic.
- Her dad ruled for decades...DECADES....without being insane. He went insane in the last seconds of a rebellion that he was about to lose. All we hear about is "the mad king" who seems to be 90% defined by his final act. Her going crazy cause she's a Targaryian just makes very little sense and is paper thin.
- They were NOT building to her murdering the masses outside of earlier in the same episode. They were building to her being a ruthless conqueror who wanted the throne above all. They only included the "I will rule by fear" in this episode. So no, it has not be foreshadowed for seasons that she would ruthlessly murder women, children and innocents. Her murdering masters, and slavers, and queens, and kings, and her enemies is NOT the same as murdering civilians. Sorry. Her deciding that she will rule by fear by murdering everyone was a very very very recent development, not something long established.
- There was actually a clever and easy they could have had their cake and eat it too. Don't ring the bells. Big stand off, everyone yelling to ring the bells, but Cersei commands NOT to ring the bells. Therefore she starts doing what she said she'd do. Burn it down to assure her victory. Use Cersei's assumption of Dany's mercy against her. The fact that they surrendered and she won the war kind of negates a lot of her motivation.
- If she was super pissed off and lost it (as the writers have apparently said) then have her go directly to the red keep. But no. She ignores Cersei completely, despite obviously knowing where she is, so that she can pointlessly murder everyone else instead.
- My bigger problem, however, was how the army turned. Grey Worm? Eh. Fine. It was dumb but they set it up JUST enough that I bought into it. But the entire Northern army? No. If they went and killed all the soldiers, I even buy that to some degree. But deciding to also murder all the women and children and then start raping everyone too? At the drop of a dime? Having never shown signs of that? With the only excuse being "Well...that's how it happened in medieval times..." is pretty weak. I think i was more annoyed at the armies (More so the Northern ones) going all murder/rapey in a split second.
- So did it come out of nowhere? Of course not. But the execution was still very poorly written over all. You can't justify the move, largely, with a sentence earlier in the episode and have that explain away 7 seasons of character development.
- Look at Batman in the Snyderverse. He killed a lot of bad guys. Brutally. So if he nukes Gotham, would that be perfectly set up and inline with his character?

PS: I don't mean to provide this as an objective, factually correct interpretation. It is one I feel is correct but totally understand that other people see it very differently. Except Stadler.


One of the videos I saw had a pretty funny idea of showing Dany during the genocide being like "DROGON STOP WHAT THE HELL ARE YOU DOING GOOD HEF!!!!!!!!!!"
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 07:23:14 PM by Adami »
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline faizoff

  • Posts: 5667
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7226 on: May 14, 2019, 07:27:17 PM »
Anyone see the sync up that some user on reddit did that plays Hells Bells from AC/DC with Dany's carnage. It's pretty cool.
"Oh how am I doing?...eating so much pussy, I'm shitting clits, son!" - Jonah Ryan

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7227 on: May 14, 2019, 07:40:24 PM »
Adami,

Regarding the Northern soldiers going on their killing spree, I think once Dany went scorched earth and everyone was running for their lives, they got swept up in the madness and went full throttle on the attack again (before the soldiers who had dropped their weapons could pick them back up).  As for the soldier who tried to rape the woman before Jon killed him, I don't we can assume North soldiers = all good guys, all South soldiers = bad guys.  There are some on both sides, and that guy was a bad one.

I think Dany taking out the city before really taking out the Red Keep was her wanting Cersei see her city burn before taking her out.  She wanted her to suffer the humiliation of a slow death instead of a quick death by taking down the Red Keep right away. I think that is how that can be explained, within the context of the show. Dany wanted Cersei to suffer, and she did by slowly breaking her spirit and then finally killing her (the building collapsing on Cersei and Jaime was done by Dany and Drogon).

I get why you feel the way you do on some of your other points, even if I am not in total agreement. :)

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7228 on: May 14, 2019, 07:42:59 PM »
Adami,

Regarding the Northern soldiers going on their killing spree, I think once Dany went scorched earth and everyone was running for their lives, they got swept up in the madness and went full throttle on the attack again (before the soldiers who had dropped their weapons could pick them back up).  As for the soldier who tried to rape the woman before Jon killed him, I don't we can assume North soldiers = all good guys, all South soldiers = bad guys.  There are some on both sides, and that guy was a bad one.

I think Dany taking out the city before really taking out the Red Keep was her wanting Cersei see her city burn before taking her out.  She wanted her to suffer the humiliation of a slow death instead of a quick death by taking down the Red Keep right away. I think that is how that can be explained, within the context of the show. Dany wanted Cersei to suffer, and she did by slowly breaking her spirit and then finally killing her (the building collapsing on Cersei and Jaime was done by Dany and Drogon).

I get why you feel the way you do on some of your other points, even if I am not in total agreement. :)

That's a cool thing about stuff like this. We can read what we do into the scenes and come up with our own reasons, explanations, and justifications for what's happening.


Even if yours are totally wrong and inferior to mine.  :biggrin:
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7229 on: May 14, 2019, 07:57:36 PM »
That's a cool thing about stuff like this. We can read what we do into the scenes and come up with our own reasons, explanations, and justifications for what's happening.


Even if yours are totally wrong and inferior to mine.  :biggrin:



:P

Offline ZirconBlue

  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 2550
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7230 on: May 14, 2019, 08:46:55 PM »
- Her dad ruled for decades...DECADES....without being insane. He went insane in the last seconds of a rebellion that he was about to lose.


Not quite.  He was already going mad before then.  His actions, including executing Rickard and Brandon Stark in brutal fashion (after Rhaegar "abducted" Lyanna) were what lead to Robert's Rebellion in the first place.

Offline Volante99

  • Posts: 1044
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7231 on: May 14, 2019, 09:18:25 PM »
I think the quick turn with Dany was fine- could have been executed better but I get that timing is short and we are beyond actual character development at this point.

What I can’t forgive is, once again, a main character just sort of goes out with a whimper. In this case I mean Cersei, both literally and figuratively. What a piss poor ending to a great character. Cersei was given ZERO thought by the writers this season. Shame.

The Night King and Littlefinger were given similar treatment. Great, interesting characters, ZERO payoff.

Online lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 29705
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7232 on: May 14, 2019, 09:21:22 PM »

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7233 on: May 14, 2019, 09:29:13 PM »

What I can’t forgive is, once again, a main character just sort of goes out with a whimper. In this case I mean Cersei, both literally and figuratively. What a piss poor ending to a great character. Cersei was given ZERO thought by the writers this season. Shame.

The Night King and Littlefinger were given similar treatment. Great, interesting characters, ZERO payoff.

Um, what?

Cersei went out defeated and crying, before the building collapsed and killed her.  That is a great ending to her character.  Instead of a quick death in a moment where she thought she was still in control, it was very satisfying to see her spirit completely broken before her life ended.

The Night King was an interesting character?  He was a one-trick pony with zero emotion or range. 

Littlefinger's payoff was amazing, with the Stark ladies tricking him and eventually executing him.  That was great stuff.

Online Adami

  • Moderator of awesomeness
  • *
  • Posts: 36093
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7234 on: May 14, 2019, 09:35:12 PM »
Totally with Kev on this one.
fanticide.bandcamp.com

Online lonestar

  • DTF Executive Chef
  • Official DTF Tour Guide
  • ****
  • Posts: 29705
  • Gender: Male
  • Silly Hatted Knife Chucker
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7235 on: May 14, 2019, 09:44:41 PM »
Thirded....especially where concerning Littlefinger, that might've been the sweetest death of the show.

Offline The Walrus

  • goo goo g'joob
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17221
  • PSA: Stairway to Heaven is in 4/4
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7236 on: May 14, 2019, 09:51:39 PM »
EDIT: Question better suited for a PM probably.
« Last Edit: May 14, 2019, 10:02:55 PM by Kattelox »
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
"I don't worry about nothing, no, 'cause worrying's a waste of my time"

Offline Volante99

  • Posts: 1044
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7237 on: May 14, 2019, 10:04:01 PM »

What I can’t forgive is, once again, a main character just sort of goes out with a whimper. In this case I mean Cersei, both literally and figuratively. What a piss poor ending to a great character. Cersei was given ZERO thought by the writers this season. Shame.

The Night King and Littlefinger were given similar treatment. Great, interesting characters, ZERO payoff.

Um, what?

Cersei went out defeated and crying, before the building collapsed and killed her.  That is a great ending to her character.  Instead of a quick death in a moment where she thought she was still in control, it was very satisfying to see her spirit completely broken before her life ended.

The Night King was an interesting character?  He was a one-trick pony with zero emotion or range. 

Littlefinger's payoff was amazing, with the Stark ladies tricking him and eventually executing him.  That was great stuff.

Agree to disagree.

Think about it. Cersei, your strongest, most cunning, ruthless character just goes down passively crying. The same character who blew up the entire Sept to avoid a trial. She has done NOTHING this entire season except sleep with Euron. And then she just quietly moves out of the way for Cleganebowl. Dumb.

The Night King had zero payoff. That’s not even debatable at this point. Lame, pointless ending to an arc the show spent the entire show hyping the hell out of.

I mean, you can defend this Season all you want but it’s going down as THE biggest letdowns in TV history.

Offline KevShmev

  • EZBoard Elder
  • *****
  • Posts: 41963
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7238 on: May 14, 2019, 10:15:20 PM »

The Night King had zero payoff. That’s not even debatable at this point. Lame, pointless ending to an arc the show spent the entire show hyping the hell out of.


Actually, it is.  Without the Night King, Dany doesn't lose a dragon, Jorah and probably her second dragon and Missandei (since they would have attacked King's Landing long before they actually did).  I said weeks ago that the Night King and White Walkers were a plot device, and I feel vindicated after this past weekend.  Dany going mad was the turning point of the series, and that doesn't happen if not for their war with the Night King. 

Think about it. Cersei, your strongest, most cunning, ruthless character just goes down passively crying. The same character who blew up the entire Sept to avoid a trial. She has done NOTHING this entire season except sleep with Euron. And then she just quietly moves out of the way for Cleganebowl. Dumb.

She went out defeated and with her spirit broken.  That was perfect. 


Offline The Walrus

  • goo goo g'joob
  • DTF.org Alumni
  • ****
  • Posts: 17221
  • PSA: Stairway to Heaven is in 4/4
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7239 on: May 14, 2019, 10:16:55 PM »
I loved Cersei's death.

What was Cersei going to do besides what she did? She is a queen. Not a fighter or a tactician. She can't operate a scorpion. I loved that she went out just like everyone else, wimpering and afraid, with her life literally crumbling around her. Great stuff imo. The very last bit of comfort she had was at least being with her brother. For all her cunning, for all her riches and confidence in her army and the scorpions and Ser Gregor... it wasn't enough. Tragic.
From a Mega Man Legends island jamming power metal to a Walrus listening to black metal, I like your story arc.
"I don't worry about nothing, no, 'cause worrying's a waste of my time"

Offline Volante99

  • Posts: 1044
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7240 on: May 14, 2019, 10:22:23 PM »
And Littlefinger’s demise was obvious fan service. The smartest, most conniving, strategic character in the entire show panics at his “trial” instead of saying “yes I do deny it... do you have any proof except for the word of your weirdo brother who wasn’t there? No? Okay we’re done here.”

At the very least Littlefinger would have argued why he’s still useful to the Starks, not whimper around like a little biatch.

Offline Volante99

  • Posts: 1044
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7241 on: May 14, 2019, 10:36:05 PM »
I loved Cersei's death.

What was Cersei going to do besides what she did? She is a queen. Not a fighter or a tactician. She can't operate a scorpion. I loved that she went out just like everyone else, wimpering and afraid, with her life literally crumbling around her. Great stuff imo. The very last bit of comfort she had was at least being with her brother. For all her cunning, for all her riches and confidence in her army and the scorpions and Ser Gregor... it wasn't enough. Tragic.

She could have done something, ANYTHING intersting, surprising, exciting, compelling. She slept with Euron. That’s all she did. The entire season. Remember when she was a character you could count on to deliver the best lines/scenes? Tyrion even warns everyone not to underestimate Cersei. She deserved better than THAT. I’m not even upset she died with Jamie, but good God man, they could have come up with a better way of getting from point A to point B.

Offline ariich

  • Roulette Supervillain
  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 27970
  • Gender: Male
  • sexin' you later
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7242 on: May 14, 2019, 11:29:06 PM »
Yeah I thought the way Cersei's story ended worked excellently. I felt less happy about Jaime's at first but I've mostly come around to it on reflection and through discussion here.

Adami, I can understand why you feel that way based on how you've interpreted things, I think we just differ significantly in our interpretations (and in some cases I think you've just got things wrong, like the Mad King definitely didn't just go mad right at the end).

I don't see any indication that the whole north army (or even much of it beyond one or two nasty people) started raping and pillaging. And in terms of the Unsullied, I think it makes sense in the context of what the episode was saying about violence and vengeance always leading to the same outcome unless you choose to stop it like Arya did. No doubt there was the typical bits of sloppy writing and pacing but thematically I thought it made complete sense.

And a really big point not only directed at you but the whole discussion is that I don't feel it's right to refer to Dany as going mad. We might use the "Mad Queen" term in reference to the Mad King, but it's not like she's gone insane. Something clearly snapped in her emotionally, but as I've said repeatedly in the last couple of days, there was a brutal logic to what she did and why she did it. On a related note, I also don't agree that they've made it all just genetic. All she knew growing up was her brother telling her that ruling Westeros was their birthright and how the family had ruled with fire and blood and he was going to take it back and so on. They've set up a large amount of "nurture" alongside "nature".

Ariich is a freak, or somehow has more hours in the day than everyone else.
I be am boner inducing.

Offline MirrorMask

  • Posts: 13326
  • Gender: Male
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7243 on: May 15, 2019, 01:54:13 AM »
Well, I don't want to refuse the excellent explanations of Dany's twisted, ruthless logic offered by ariich and RuRoRol, but these two points kinda reasonate with me:

- There is a difference between foreshadowing and telecasting something. Her going mad the way she did was telecasted this episode.
- They were NOT building to her murdering the masses outside of earlier in the same episode. They were building to her being a ruthless conqueror who wanted the throne above all. They only included the "I will rule by fear" in this episode. So no, it has not be foreshadowed for seasons that she would ruthlessly murder women, children and innocents. Her murdering masters, and slavers, and queens, and kings, and her enemies is NOT the same as murdering civilians. Sorry. Her deciding that she will rule by fear by murdering everyone was a very very very recent development, not something long established.

The "telecasting" for me came also from the voiceovers at the beginning of the episode, with quotes from everyone about the Targaryen being nuts, even picking up old Maester Aemon's quote about "A Targaryen alone in the world is a terrible thing". It's like they made Cersei saying stuff like "I hate children, I want the Mountain to stomp them all" and then add in the "previously on" segment the quote from Tyrion "you love your children, that's your redeeming quality" to sell better her "I don't want my child to die" at the end. No need for that however 'cause her character traits were well estabilished.

About Cersei's demise... let's remember we're all talking about fictional characters portrayed by actors, otherwise we'd all feel monsters for cheering at a teenage kid dying horribly in front of their helpless parents  ;D but that's what we all cheered for when Joffrey died, and we all cheered at dogs eating Ramsay, so I wanted to cheer as well for the death of that stupid bitch of Cersei.

I won't disagree that dying defeated, alone and full of fear is not satisfying, but she also died in the arms of the person she loved comforting her. Too easy for such a monster who basically nuked the Vatican on top of all the other hateful and spiteful things she did. I believe the situation was a "victim" of Lena Headey's talent - she's been fantastic all the series through, and she could masterfully sell the desperation and fear of Cersei, it was probably a waste of her talents to let her die smirking, but damn I wanted to see that, I wanted to enjoy her death, not almost feel pity for a helpless and afraid pregnant woman.

Going back to the authors' masterplan... I believe they wanted to really, really adapt the Red Wedding, that was their dream. After that, they sort of winged it.

And when I said before "they said Dany's decision was a spur of the moment and that's it", I wasn't completely literaly with my "that's it". Of course there's more beyond a single sentence given in an interview. But I wouldn't be too surprised if, while trying to reach the end point of "Dany goes batshit insane", the answer to "how do we push her from ruthless but somehow rational conqueror to mass murderer of women and children?" was something just slightly more complex than "Eh, let's have her snap in the heat of the moment".

About what to change.... as I've read online somewhere else, it's so much easier to make changes to someone else's finished work, than to come up with a full story of your own. It's so easy so say "I would have done this and that" and tweak the author's story. With this premise, I like also one of the proposals I've read online - having Rhaegal just being wounded at the Iron Fleet ambush, so that he would be most useless in the attack of King's Landing, and then having Euron, survivor of the Iron Fleet destruction, finding somehow a ballista still working and still be the one that takes Rhaegal out. Have all the people of King's Landing cheering at the death of the "monster" - Dany seeing the people that are supposed to love her actually cheer at the violent death of her child would be more than enough to sell her "Burn them all" mentality.

Regarding the Dorne plot... I think it could have been saved with just some minor tweakings as well, maybe I'll go in fanfic mode and attempt to change the final scene of Season 5 later  :D
I use my sig to pimp some bands from Italy! Check out Elvenking (Power / Folk metal), Folkstone (Rock / Medieval metal), Arcana Opera (Gothic/Noir/Heavy metal) and the beautiful voice of Elisa!

Offline Zantera

  • Wolfman's brother
  • DTF.org Member
  • *
  • Posts: 13415
  • Gender: Male
  • Bouncing around the room
Re: Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread
« Reply #7244 on: May 15, 2019, 03:51:32 AM »
I think the character arcs with pretty much all the Lannisters have felt a bit lackluster this season:

Tyrion - maybe my favorite character through the whole show, still great when he is on screen but basically reduced to sidekick. Wish he got something more interesting to do because the conflict has been there (him siding with Dany against his family and now Dany torching everything makes him look like a bit of a fool for siding with her) but sadly most of his scenes have been him getting treated like a child by Dany. Was a nice scene when he freed Jamie but overall his role has been slightly disappointing in how small it has been.

Jamie - think over the course of the first few seasons he went from a character everyone hated to a character a lot of people liked and for all the twists and turns about him going against Cersei or siding with her in the end, ultimately his story ending felt like a bit of a bummer. I think part of me was hoping he'd leave his crazy sister and settle down peacefully somewhere.

Cersei - while i understand people who were happy with her death, i feel slightly mixed on it. First off i agree that Cersei this season has been completely wasted. She used to have great scenes being ruthless and I was hoping all the way until the end that she would be making plans and having some alternative plan B ready. She has been one of the highlights of the show in terms of acting and she wasn't given much to do this season. I liked the angle of showing her as weak and powerless and basically just standing in her castle seeing the city destroyed without any power to stop it, i like her breaking down and realizing she had lost, but part of me wishes that the actual death felt more satisfying. We know she's dead but nobody else does. They're left to assume she died sometime during the battle which feels a bit underwhelming as a story conclusion for the many characters seeking to kill her. I'm not really crazy about her death either way though, I can see the writers trying to do something unexpected (rather than Arya chopping her head off) and I'll always give some credit for trying an alternative route that might be risky. This didn't entirely work for me, but I appreciated some aspects of it.