Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[ariich]

Even you were shocked by the extent of the carnage.

The extent of it, absolutely. Just not that it happened.

In Robert's Rebellion, they killed a lot of good men who weren't complicit with Aerys' madness to get the throne, and we still love those characters - this way, the blame of the horrors of war is solely on her, so we can conveniently forgive everyone who supported her way to the throne, including the "good Starks". Even now when they got everything out of the way and Jon's hands are mostly clean and hers are not, she's still a problem, because she still has the dragon and the armies.

Interesting, that's not how I see it at all. While people like Jon and Tyrion had good intentions, they still failed to see this coming or stop it happening and what happened is the consequence of their failure.

*my cynicism says they wanted to keep all the team Dany people fully on board and not questioning anything and then shock them like they shocked team Robb show-only watchers with the Red Wedding.

Perhaps, or it might have been a more general "let's make it shocking for the casual viewers and even make dedicated fans question whether she'll do it" than specifically targeted at "team Dany" people. Although either way it's pretty harsh on all the people who have in the last few years christened their daughters "Khaleesi".

[v_clortho]

Prediction: Jaime kills Cersei by pushing her out a window or some other high place. I have a feeling he will fall with her as well. The hound and the Mountain will fight. The Hound will win but be severely hurt. Arya will put him out of his misery at his request.

Nailed it!   

[Chino]

Prediction: Jaime kills Cersei by pushing her out a window or some other high place. I have a feeling he will fall with her as well. The hound and the Mountain will fight. The Hound will win but be severely hurt. Arya will put him out of his misery at his request.

Nailed it!   

You were so close and so far at the same time 

[Adami]

For the moment, I'll stick to things I liked since....yea.


Despite her thick plot armor, I really liked Arya's arc in this episode. Her final conversation with the hound, I thought was excellent. And even though it amounted to absolutely nothing, I really liked her turn toward wanting to help people rather than just being a killer. Overall, loved Arya and the Hound. And her calling him by his real name at the end was a nice touch.

How they killed off Cyburn. Quick, pointless, and without meaning. Pretty fitting for his character. Also died at the hands of his own creation. Liked that.

The Lanister army laying down their arms right after Cersei said they would fight til the last man standing. I'm not going into what happened after since I hated it, but that moment was a really great twist that I applauded.

How Cersei died. Not going to comment on Jamie's arc, but her dying with him under the weight of her own failures I thought was good.

How Euron died. As Nick just pointed out, he had a death really fitting his character. Super short sighted and pretty delusional.

[ariich]

Agree with all of those, Adami.

[gmillerdrake]

I kind of like Dany's turn this episode.  I kept thinking, maybe this was all set up and she wouldn't pull the trigger.  Or maybe she will only go  half mad king.  But seeing the brutality and that shock of when she finally did start killing everyone was shockingly amazing.  I kept thinking she wouldn't really just burn the innocents in the streets but they showed that first shot of her doing it and I couldn't believe my eyes.  Then you had Greyworm sitting there in the stand still just taking out his anger.  You see Dany's eyes and how angry she is.  It felt like the culmination of all the pent up anger from this series being let out.

Well....this was her initial plan and idea prior to meeting Jorah, Tyrion...Varys. They're the ones who talked her down from it. With Jorah (and Messande) being gone....her not trusting Varys at all and her Faith in Tyrion essentially non existent now.....she went back to her original plan. And, especially after that scene with Jon when she realized her only power was going to come from fear.....and not the reverence and love she had from the freed slaves and people from across the sea....she decided to wreak havoc.


And again....as far as the scorpions seemingly being useless just as they were introduced as being the 'game changers'.....i think they did a good job of showing Dany and Drogon working in concert and taking advantage of his mobility.....the early morning sun on the sea.....the fixed positions on the walls.....I mean honestly, they handled that perfectly. There really should be no question as to 'why' the scorpions weren't effective. It's because Dany and Drogon took it to the  next level and kicked their a$$es.

[hefdaddy42]

I thought the episode was fantastic.  Best of the year by far.

I understand some of the criticism I have seen, but not others.

Some of the criticism of how Dany turned out seems like simple "not getting their way".  This is almost certainly the way it was always going to end.  The whole thing fits right in with the vision Dany had in, what, season 2?  And also the vision that Bran had, that featured some of the same images.  Dany has been losing it, piece by piece, for years.  I never believed that she would just accomplish her goal of winning the throne and being a benevolent ruler happily ever after, and anyone that did think that hasn't been watching the same show that I have.  Expectations of happy endings have been subverted since the first season (or even the first episode).

I also don't understand the criticism of how "Jaime's arc ended".  He didn't have an arc.  He didn't go from evil to good.  He was always evil.  He was always good.  He was one of the most complex figures on the show, and like so many others, had his share of faults.  He was always honorable and upstanding in most ways, except for the big blind spot in his vision that was Cersei.  Around her, he couldn't help himself, but away from her, his more positive traits always came through.  But she was the black hole from whose orbit he was incapable of extricating himself.

The Clegane battle was fantastic.  And I'm glad that Arya got away.  Hopefully she has a moderately happy ending (or at least a purposeful one, which may be the best that this world can give her).

Also, how Dany dealt with the scorpions actually made perfect sense.  The weakness was that they are so huge that they are not easily maneuverable and take a while to reload, weaknesses that are mitigated when firing at a target caught unawares (as in the last episode).  Dany attacked the fleet from above with the sun behind her, so they couldn't get clear shots, which enabled her to take them out fairly quickly.  Likewise, the when she got to the city, they weren't pointed in the right directions, enabling her to take them out as well.

[MoraWintersoul]

How it gets there I don't know, but I can see Tyrion taking Varrys' advice and somehow getting Sansa on the throne. I would personally hate this as Sophie Turner is probably my least favorite actor/actress in the series, but a reasonable dark horse.

A reasonable dark horse is Bran. because they're trying very hard to make us forget he exists or is in the vicinity of the throne, just like they tried to make us think Arya won't be the one to kill NK.

Interesting, that's not how I see it at all. While people like Jon and Tyrion had good intentions, they still failed to see this coming or stop it happening and what happened is the consequence of their failure.

I don't think anyone in-universe will call them out on it at all. Maybe Jon will brood and say "this is all my fault" and someone else will pat him on the back and say he isn't.

Look at me, all bold, making predictions  Tbh if it's anyone's fault, it's Bran's. Letting a ticking time bomb into KL is a big loss for humanity, and something he'd probably be interested in stopping, if that was his endgame. Instead he only shows interest in Arya and Jaime, and then he presses Jon's claim, which drives a wedge between Jon and Dany early. In fact, if the showrunners were clever, they'd imply he had a hand in orchestrating this in order to put the best Targ on the throne. I don't like Bran Mastermind theories but they're basically implying it right now anyway, because he just let everything unfold and pushed a crucial part of the story.

[cramx3]

So, was the commander of the Golden Company one of the most useless new characters in the show?  They gave him an introduction and death, that is all. 

[The Walrus]

So, was the commander of the Golden Company one of the most useless new characters in the show?  They gave him an introduction and death, that is all. 

The shot of him staring down the Northern army reminded me of Jon facing down Ramsay's army. Except Harry did the smart thing and tried to retreat, LOL! I like how his horse was the one Arya rode out of the city with

[gmillerdrake]

Some of the criticism of how Dany turned out seems like simple "not getting their way".  This is almost certainly the way it was always going to end.  The whole thing fits right in with the vision Dany had in, what, season 2?  And also the vision that Bran had, that featured some of the same images.  Dany has been losing it, piece by piece, for years.  I never believed that she would just accomplish her goal of winning the throne and being a benevolent ruler happily ever after, and anyone that did think that hasn't been watching the same show that I have.  Expectations of happy endings have been subverted since the first season (or even the first episode)

Nailed it.





There's a lady in my office this morning telling us that the reason they 'did' this to Dany was that she was a strong woman figure and they couldn't 'allow' a strong woman figure to 'win' the iron throne. They 'had' to make her go crazy and become evil and that this was a direct shot at women in general. 

[gmillerdrake]

A reasonable dark horse is Bran. because they're trying very hard to make us forget he exists or is in the vicinity of the throne

I think they've had Bran say on multiple occasions that he is 'no one', he can't even be Lord of Winterfell. I don't see Bran coming into play at all.


this has all the signs of Jon taking out Dany.....becoming King for a Day then abdicating his throne to Sansa.

[The Walrus]

There's a lady in my office this morning telling us that the reason they 'did' this to Dany was that she was a strong woman figure and they couldn't 'allow' a strong woman figure to 'win' the iron throne. They 'had' to make her go crazy and become evil and that this was a direct shot at women in general. 

I really, really, really hate when people do this to the show, as if it has some obligation to go with the flow of our world's current sociopolitical expectations, like it's not a work of fiction meant to depict the cruel nature of this harsh world.

[cramx3]

A reasonable dark horse is Bran. because they're trying very hard to make us forget he exists or is in the vicinity of the throne

I think they've had Bran say on multiple occasions that he is 'no one', he can't even be Lord of Winterfell. I don't see Bran coming into play at all.


this has all the signs of Jon taking out Dany.....becoming King for a Day then abdicating his throne to Sansa.

I don't think Bran is a dark horse when betting sites have or had him as the safest bet  (it was brought up in the latest alt shift x video which is how I know this) but I do think something about Dany not being on the throne (likely because she is killed) and Jon choosing not to and living beyond the wall could be the real deal.

[gmillerdrake]

There's a lady in my office this morning telling us that the reason they 'did' this to Dany was that she was a strong woman figure and they couldn't 'allow' a strong woman figure to 'win' the iron throne. They 'had' to make her go crazy and become evil and that this was a direct shot at women in general. 

I really, really, really hate when people do this to the show, as if it has some obligation to go with the flow of our world's current sociopolitical expectations, like it's not a work of fiction meant to depict the cruel nature of this harsh world.

Dude....I literally turned my back on her and walked away as she was still speaking. (there were two other people there...but I wasn't sticking around for that conversation) And, this is someone who we've had many great conversations about this show and others. She was literally almost in tears as she was spouting this stuff....saying she can't believe they'd do that to Dany's character???

[The Walrus]

There's a lady in my office this morning telling us that the reason they 'did' this to Dany was that she was a strong woman figure and they couldn't 'allow' a strong woman figure to 'win' the iron throne. They 'had' to make her go crazy and become evil and that this was a direct shot at women in general. 

I really, really, really hate when people do this to the show, as if it has some obligation to go with the flow of our world's current sociopolitical expectations, like it's not a work of fiction meant to depict the cruel nature of this harsh world.

Dude....I literally turned my back on her and walked away as she was still speaking. (there were two other people there...but I wasn't sticking around for that conversation) And, this is someone who we've had many great conversations about this show and others. She was literally almost in tears as she was spouting this stuff....saying she can't believe they'd do that to Dany's character???

Wow. Just wow. Someone clearly did not pay attention to this show.  Like... did she forget all about Slaver's Bay?

[ariich]

There's a lady in my office this morning telling us that the reason they 'did' this to Dany was that she was a strong woman figure and they couldn't 'allow' a strong woman figure to 'win' the iron throne. They 'had' to make her go crazy and become evil and that this was a direct shot at women in general. 

I find complaints like this (and even more nuanced and intelligent versions of the same point) really frustrating because they completely ignore the whole load of strong women in the show who aren't brutal power-hungry maniacs.

[cramx3]

best death... qyburn.  That was an awesome push from the Mountain and then seeing his dead body as Cersei just walks away and then cleganebowl began was 

[Podaar]

I thought the episode was fantastic.  Best of the year by far.

I understand some of the criticism I have seen, but not others.

Some of the criticism of how Dany turned out seems like simple "not getting their way".  This is almost certainly the way it was always going to end.  The whole thing fits right in with the vision Dany had in, what, season 2?  And also the vision that Bran had, that featured some of the same images.  Dany has been losing it, piece by piece, for years.  I never believed that she would just accomplish her goal of winning the throne and being a benevolent ruler happily ever after, and anyone that did think that hasn't been watching the same show that I have.  Expectations of happy endings have been subverted since the first season (or even the first episode).

I also don't understand the criticism of how "Jaime's arc ended".  He didn't have an arc.  He didn't go from evil to good.  He was always evil.  He was always good.  He was one of the most complex figures on the show, and like so many others, had his share of faults.  He was always honorable and upstanding in most ways, except for the big blind spot in his vision that was Cersei.  Around her, he couldn't help himself, but away from her, his more positive traits always came through.  But she was the black hole from whose orbit he was incapable of extricating himself.

The Clegane battle was fantastic.  And I'm glad that Arya got away.  Hopefully she has a moderately happy ending (or at least a purposeful one, which may be the best that this world can give her).

Also, how Dany dealt with the scorpions actually made perfect sense.  The weakness was that they are so huge that they are not easily maneuverable and take a while to reload, weaknesses that are mitigated when firing at a target caught unawares (as in the last episode).  Dany attacked the fleet from above with the sun behind her, so they couldn't get clear shots, which enabled her to take them out fairly quickly.  Likewise, the when she got to the city, they weren't pointed in the right directions, enabling her to take them out as well.

    I like this post a lot. It's very close to my thoughts.


As for where the show goes from here, I think it's possible that Dany has Drogon melt down the iron throne and she essentially tells Westeros, "I've destroyed the city of my ancestors. I've destroyed my throne. Targaryens are finished with this continent. I'm going back to Essos where I'm wanted and needed. Figure it out yourselves, you miserable fucks!" Loads up what remains of her armies and flies back to Meereen.

[The Walrus]

best death... qyburn.  That was an awesome push from the Mountain and then seeing his dead body as Cersei just walks away and then cleganebowl began was 

Found this on Reddit, you'll like it  I agree, I loved Qyburn's death. It felt really good to watch!

[cramx3]

 

There were quite a few times I was thinking of video games watching this

[Samsara]

I'll share the sentiment of those who loved last night's episode. I thought it was very well done in pretty much every regard. As for next week, I don't see Dany making it. I think it will all come back around to the statement Eddard Stark made to Jon Snow in the first season. Paraphrasing, since I don't remember it exactly, but its about how every king/lord should personally meter out just punishment by him or herself. If you noticed, when Dany fried Varys, it was Drogon who killed him, not Dany. I thought that was foreshadowing of Dany's upcoming (I believe) death. Jon's look said it all. Next episode, he executes Dany. And he takes his place on the throne...or, he appoints a new King or Queen and leaves on his own accord (he's said repeatedly now how much he doesn't want it -- he may take it to appoint a new king/queen, and then depart for parts unknown). That's how I see it playing out. WHo knows, maybe Davos. 

[Adami]

Ohhhh, what do you guys think Varys was writing in the beginning? I couldn't catch it all but I saw Eddard Stark written. He burnt the last one when he knew he was caught.

[Samsara]

Ohhhh, what do you guys think Varys was writing in the beginning? I couldn't catch it all but I saw Eddard Stark written. He burnt the last one when he knew he was caught.

I thought he was sending out multiple of the same message, telling the world who Jon Snow really is, and sending out ravens as fast as he could.

[cramx3]

Ohhhh, what do you guys think Varys was writing in the beginning? I couldn't catch it all but I saw Eddard Stark written. He burnt the last one when he knew he was caught.

I thought he was sending out multiple of the same message, telling the world who Jon Snow really is, and sending out ravens as fast as he could.

Yup, next episode all of Westeros should be aware of it.

[gmillerdrake]

Ohhhh, what do you guys think Varys was writing in the beginning? I couldn't catch it all but I saw Eddard Stark written. He burnt the last one when he knew he was caught.

I thought he was sending out multiple of the same message, telling the world who Jon Snow really is, and sending out ravens as fast as he could.

Yeah....this is what I got from it. There was also a line about 'rightful heir'.....looks like Varys was sending out some old school texts to all those who'd listen. I think he knew he was a dead man and was just trying to let it be know to as many as possible. Hence his conversation with the young child......

[The Walrus]

Part of me really hopes the very end of the show is Jon refusing the throne once and for all and actually leaving Westeros to live in the 'real North' with Tormund and whatever wildlings are left. And maybe he just ventures far enough north to find that altar/ice palace of the Night King's, and...   dun dun dunnn

[ariich]

Ohhhh, what do you guys think Varys was writing in the beginning? I couldn't catch it all but I saw Eddard Stark written. He burnt the last one when he knew he was caught.

I thought he was sending out multiple of the same message, telling the world who Jon Snow really is, and sending out ravens as fast as he could.

Yeah it was definitely about Jon Snow being the true heir.

I didn't twig that he was sending out multiple ravens and when he burned it before he was taken away, I thought maybe that was it, but on reflection you're probably right, as that's what he was doing way back in season 1 and which ultimately kicked off the whole game of thrones. So there's a nice symmetry to it, if that's what he was doing.

[ariich]

but it definitely felt like some shots were all/mostly random innocents and that she was just killing everyone.

That's because she was just killing everyone. She wiped out the entire city.

When she was speaking with Jon earlier and decided that since no one in Westeros loves her that she would have to lead by fear, she obviously convinced herself that wiping out the whole city was the only way to strike fear in the hearts of all of Westeros so they would follow her.

Ah yeah, I forgot about that scene. Good point. My initial interpretation is probably wrong in that case and she really went completely off the deep end. Jeez.

Thinking about it now, a season or two ago, when she began actively talking about returning to Westeros to take her throne, there were discussions among some characters (can't remember who but probably involving Tyrion and Varys) about whether the people would accept her considering they don't know her.

A further thought on this. Helping to defeat the Night King/White Walkers was supposed to be part of her strategy for winning the love/respect of the people of Westeros. I'm not saying that was necessarily her only reason for doing it but it was a factor. But it failed to do that.

[cramx3]

but it definitely felt like some shots were all/mostly random innocents and that she was just killing everyone.

That's because she was just killing everyone. She wiped out the entire city.

When she was speaking with Jon earlier and decided that since no one in Westeros loves her that she would have to lead by fear, she obviously convinced herself that wiping out the whole city was the only way to strike fear in the hearts of all of Westeros so they would follow her.

Ah yeah, I forgot about that scene. Good point. My initial interpretation is probably wrong in that case and she really went completely off the deep end. Jeez.

Thinking about it now, a season or two ago, when she began actively talking about returning to Westeros to take her throne, there were discussions among some characters (can't remember who but probably involving Tyrion and Varys) about whether the people would accept her considering they don't know her.

A further thought on this. Helping to defeat the Night King/White Walkers was supposed to be part of her strategy for winning the love/respect of the people of Westeros. I'm not saying that was necessarily her only reason for doing it but it was a factor. But it failed to do that.

I think the show kind of referenced this when showing Tormund just obsessing over Jon and giving him all the accolades after the battle for Winterfell since he was riding a dragon too.  Seems the people just naturally went to Jon which kind of lead to Dany feeling the same way Viserys felt when he saw Dany getting the love in season 1 that he thought he was owed.

[ariich]

but it definitely felt like some shots were all/mostly random innocents and that she was just killing everyone.

That's because she was just killing everyone. She wiped out the entire city.

When she was speaking with Jon earlier and decided that since no one in Westeros loves her that she would have to lead by fear, she obviously convinced herself that wiping out the whole city was the only way to strike fear in the hearts of all of Westeros so they would follow her.

Ah yeah, I forgot about that scene. Good point. My initial interpretation is probably wrong in that case and she really went completely off the deep end. Jeez.

Thinking about it now, a season or two ago, when she began actively talking about returning to Westeros to take her throne, there were discussions among some characters (can't remember who but probably involving Tyrion and Varys) about whether the people would accept her considering they don't know her.

A further thought on this. Helping to defeat the Night King/White Walkers was supposed to be part of her strategy for winning the love/respect of the people of Westeros. I'm not saying that was necessarily her only reason for doing it but it was a factor. But it failed to do that.

I think the show kind of referenced this when showing Tormund just obsessing over Jon and giving him all the accolades after the battle for Winterfell since he was riding a dragon too.  Seems the people just naturally went to Jon which kind of lead to Dany feeling the same way Viserys felt when he saw Dany getting the love in season 1 that he thought he was owed.

Yeah exactly. And it's understandable, Jon had spent years doing so much for all of them and built up a huge amount of trust.

[gmillerdrake]

Still reflecting on that episode a bit (really need to watch this again soon) and it was just awesome to watch Dany and Drogon take it to what was supposed to be a neutralizing armada and system (in the scorpions) I love how they used the sunlight and low approaches by Dany and Drogon to render the fleet mute.....and the attack on the fixed scorpions on the walls were beautifully done as well.

[hefdaddy42]

Ohhhh, what do you guys think Varys was writing in the beginning? I couldn't catch it all but I saw Eddard Stark written. He burnt the last one when he knew he was caught.

I thought he was sending out multiple of the same message, telling the world who Jon Snow really is, and sending out ravens as fast as he could.

Yeah....this is what I got from it. There was also a line about 'rightful heir'.....looks like Varys was sending out some old school texts to all those who'd listen. I think he knew he was a dead man and was just trying to let it be know to as many as possible. Hence his conversation with the young child......

This.  I imagine that copies were sent to the new Prince of Dorne and to the maesters at the Citadel in Oldtowne.

I think there will be an inevitable showdown between Jon and Dany, who will probably order his death by dragonfire, and Drogon will either refuse (since he is also a Targaryen) or will otherwise be stopped from doing anything, perhaps by Jon himself.

I hope that Jon winds up being able to retire to the North.

I would love to see Davos wind up with the throne (if anyone), but I won't be that lucky.

[Adami]

Drogon tries to torch Jon. Jon is unburnt. Walks out naked. Has gigantic package. People all bow to the new king for obvious phallic reasons.

[The Walrus]

Drogon tries to torch Jon. Jon is unburnt. Walks out naked. Has gigantic package. People all bow to the new king for obvious phallic reasons.