Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[The Walrus]

Gotcha, Adami.

While I always wanted to see Cersei have a painful death, I thought they handled that well.  In her final minutes, she was defeated, crying and whimpering...very fitting before she met her demise with the kingslayer.

Yeah, I'm right there with you. That wasn't how I expected her to go, but one of the moments I teared up at was right there, when she said, "I don't want to die" - I hate Cersei, she's an awful person, but she's one of the best characters on the show, and no matter how evil she was, she was also very human, and that's what I loved about her. Lena Headey is a phenomenal actor.

Dany torching King's Landing, I have no problems with (just look at the recent discussion we had on Dany's character arc leading to this). What a spectacle. Visually one of the best episodes ever, for sure.

Cleganebowl reminded me of the scene every JRPG has where you fight someone on a staircase with a killer view. RIP Qyburn, holy shit lol

[KevShmev]

That final scene with Tyrion and Jaime was so good.  Tyrion may very well pay with his life, but it's clear how much his brother meant to him.

[faizoff]

I'm actually really curious what bad writing you're referring to - like, dialogue, or literally how they wrote the scenes? If you want to wait, that's cool too, but I'm interested.

Just to answer briefly, I don't mean to imply that literally every word is badly written. Just overall. The dialogue is usually fine, if not a bit overt and blunt, but it's more story writing that I'm referring to. Some of the dialogue is really great. Btu yea, I mean the story. An example from last episode of Dany forgetting about Euron or Euron not paying attention to the baby thing. Stuff like that.

I agree with the story part of it not being up to par but honestly my opinion is that this is purely due to the squeezed number of episodes. I'm sure the writers can flesh out the story and make the character's choices more discernible and cogent, but do so in the number of episodes for this many characters, something was going to take a hit.

I thought as much that there would be some amazing stuff and some very banal choices. But overall I actually am enjoying these episodes while fully acknowledging its many flaws.

For me, its solidified that nothing will reach breaking bad level series ending satisfaction but this is going to be as good as it will be.

Agreed with everyone that said it's one of the most hauntingly beautiful looking episodes. Amazing actor performances overall. Visual effects were out of this world for a TV show. Truly a spectacle.

I'm not at all happy with Jaime's arc ending this way even though I suppose it makes sense. I thought he was the best written arc on the show until he decided to head back to King's Landing, but again my thinking is that this is more of a result of the shortened season than anything else.

One last episode...

[faizoff]

Gah.. I'm actually depressed after all that carnage. I need to watch some comedy and watch Veep since that series is ending tonight.

[Adami]

Gah.. I'm actually depressed after all that carnage. I need to watch some comedy and watch Veep since that series is ending tonight.

Hah. I have similar experiences. Gotta be up for work early Monday morning so I always need a post GoT show to decompress so I can sleep.

[erwinrafael]

What a meh episode. The last 20 minutrs dragged on and on. There were deaths, but they all felt so irrelevant and telegraphed.

[fadetoblackdude7]

Couple thoughts:

- I loved how they made Dany go fucking nuts at the end. I’ve been waiting for that for a while!

- The Clegane bowl was dope!

- By having the finale be Jon vs Dany (which it looks like it will be), they hold up to the title of A Song of Ice and Fire.

[senecadawg2]

Truly a spectacle.

True enough, and i enjoy the production too, but i miss the days when the spectacle:story ratio didnt feel so out of balance.

The show didnt hook me in the early seasons on the basis of spectacle as much as for the interesting characters and complex storytelling. Sacrifices have been made. Spectacle can only do so much.

[CrimsonSunrise]

The "Mad Queen"...............  Holy fuck that was EPIC!!!!!!!

[lonestar]

Yup, pretty happy with how that went. Mad Queen was predictable, and satisfying. Clegane Bowl was totes worth it. Good level of carnage and mayhem. I still don't see how they're gonna pack the rest of the series into one episode, but we'll see.

Final scene with Arya and the horse was just stunning.

[faizoff]

Truly a spectacle.

True enough, and i enjoy the production too, but i miss the days when the spectacle:story ratio didnt feel so out of balance.

The show didnt hook me in the early seasons on the basis of spectacle as much as for the interesting characters and complex storytelling. Sacrifices have been made. Spectacle can only do so much.

I get that but I think the spectacle is well earned at this point IMO. Its been building and building to this so I am soaking in spectacular spectacle. 

[The Walrus]

Who would've thought a show about dragons and zombies would end in spectacle. 

[soupytwist]

Personally I can't believe they made the decision at the end of season 6 that they only needed 15 to tell the rest of the story.   Everything is now so rushed - In my opinion Season 8 should have been about battling the Nightking and Season 9 about the battle for the throne.   But they are rushing those two stories into 6 episodes and the characters are really suffering as their motivations and actions aren't being fleshed out.

[masterthes]

The thing that was really frustrating was that, despite the awesome character arc Jamie went through, it ultimately meant nothing. Fate tapped him on the shoulder and said "listen, Brienne is great and all, but there's this prophecy that says you have to kill your sister, so if you could go back to King's Landing, that'd be great"

[ReaperKK]

I liked the way Cersei died. No body by her side except her brother buried in a pile of rubble like so many of her citizens

[senecadawg2]

Who would've thought a show about dragons and zombies would end in spectacle. 

I get that youre being playful, but its a great point youve made.

I always thought the show was about dragons and zombies in the same way that the lord of the rings is about elves and magical jewelry. That is, only superficially. I found it intriguing that a show could blend fantasy elements with grittier elements realism, with politics, with complex relationships, etc; just as the lotr is my favorite movie series for its depiction of human issues like greed, fellowship, sacrifice, etc.

Im just sad that the superficial at some point seemed to eclipse the human intrigue to produce this magnificently retweetable spectacle.

[MoraWintersoul]

Is Bran warging into horses now?

Don't expect anything as interesting as that. An interview will come out and they'll say it's a Bible reference (death riding on a pale horse) and that will be the end of that.

This was pretty much torture porn for me. Wondering where the sweet part will be in this bittersweet ending. If you close your eyes at episode 4, suddenly it makes a lot of sense - from the moment they arrive to King's Landing they've pretty much won, a dragon is a weapon of mass destruction, Cersei's forces are outmatched, doesn't matter how much you nerf Dany's forces beforehand. The only struggle that's ahead of our main characters is how to refrain from vengeance and show mercy. Some fail (Dany obvs, The Hound), some succeed (Arya, Jon), some sign their death sentences because they love their family (Jaime, Tyrion probably, no way he lives after what he pulled). EP4 was unnecessary - the scorpions, the clumsy parlay, all of it, it could have gone without a skirmish and with some much more advanced and nuanced politicking.

Dany and the Lannisters are my two weak spots. I still insist they Revenge Of The Sith-ed Dany. If they had the guts to take her to 49% Targaryen in season 5 (like GRRM did in book 5), and then slowly take her up til 90% in the previous episode, this would have been even more emotionally fraught to watch, but they wanted to make the team Dany casuals feel justified in rooting for their queen and buying merch until the bitter end. I wish we spent more time with Jaime to understand his decision. I get it, I just don't want to autofill it in my head, when Nikolaj is capable of showing it to me. Tyrion is a head scratcher. She ruined his life along with their father and called for his head multiple times. Last episode he all but told Cersei to surrender so they could let her deliver her child, and she refused and killed a prisoner, an innocent. She isn't worth committing treason for.

I wish Cersei had lived so that at the end of the war they had a Lannister baby in exile they had to show mercy to, like Robert who had to deal with the fact there were two Targaryen children in exile. But I think the ending came straight from GRRM, so who am I to say anything. They should have taken HBO's offer, made more episodes and tied it together better, because an ending makes no sense without a careful journey.

[KevShmev]

If there is enough pushback reaction, I could see George Martin saying this is not what he intended, but I think it's clear that the showrunners took direction from him on a macro level (big picture, character arcs, etc.), even if the smaller details (pacing, for example) might have veered greatly from what he wanted.

What I mean is this: I suspect a lot of people will criticize the showrunners for turning Daenerys heel, but I would bet my life savings that the same thing would have happened had Martin finished the books first.  How they got from a to z might have been a little different, and details absolutely matter, but the end result still would have been the same.

[TheOutlawXanadu]

MoraWintersoul basically described my thoughts exactly. Really well put.

However, I am a bit grumpy right now, so I'm going to say them myself as well. For whatever reason, Danny's story arc just did not work for me. I fully admit that it was because I incorrectly convinced myself that she was good. Maybe I set myself up for disappointment. But I really thought that, based on Seasons 1-7, she was at least 51% good. I always knew she had some screws loose, but as recently as a season ago, she was refusing to burn King's Landing to the ground because she knew it was the wrong thing to do. Even Jon was like, "I believe in you!" And now she has gone ahead and murdered thousands upon thousands of people for basically no reason. She went full crazy. Committed genocide, basically.

From what I can tell, the show is going to end with Jon killing her. How many characters does that make who received a sad end? I'm not actually going to do this, but my sense is that if you wrote down a list of all the main characters, basically every one would slot under "Sad Ending" and only a few would go under "Happy Ending". The bitter-to-sweet ratio is completely lopsided right now, and if it stays that way, I don't know how much replay the value the show will have in the long run. I never expected the show to have a happy ending, but I also didn't expect it to be this big a downer. Again... Maybe my fault, but this last episode didn't sit quite right.

[ariich]

@Kev: Yeah regardless of pacing, writing etc, Danny's arc in the show is consistent with that in the books and I'm extremely confident that's where the books are heading too. That side of this episode honestly worked for me, it had been set up for a years but the brutal extent of it did shock me (in a mostly good way).

I also enjoyed "Cleganebowl" and thought its resolution was probably the only way it could end.

I also really liked Arya in this episode and I was glad at how much it focused on her.

Some other great stuff in the episode and I enjoyed it quite a bit overall. Some stuff felt quite disappointing though. Varys, the master of whisperers, getting caught was downright incompetent. Jaime's arc feels anti-climactic and meaningless. And although I kind of get Jon being torn over what to do, it felt like it took too long for him to do the right thing.

[Phoenix87x]

Wow, where do I even start. That was the best episode in YEARS and will probably go down as one of the strongest episodes in the entire series for me. It hit every emotion I have, sadness, fear, panic, joy, sorrow, relief, on and on. They pulled no punches showing the absolute horror of war and just how bad it can really get and I salute them for it. It felt REAL.

But I will not let them get away with one fatal flaw: 

Oh what, now the scorpions just aren't a problem? FUCK THAT    These things were built up over all this time as this big game changer, killed a dragon effortless just one episode ago and now she takes them all out in a couple of minutes? Fuck that shit

ALL they had to do was put some armor on the god damn dragon and show a spear bounce off it. Is that so fucking hard?

Besides that one issue, this episode was legendary and I bow down 

Can't wait for the final episode and all I've got to say is one thing and one thing only:

The bitch must die...

[ariich]

I always knew she had some screws loose, but as recently as a season ago, she was refusing to burn King's Landing to the ground because she knew it was the wrong thing to do.

From what I remember, she definitely didn't "refuse" to do it. She had to be talked out of it by Tyrion and/or Varys. Something like this has been on the cards for a while and I honestly thought everyone knew that, and so I'm surprised at the amount of surprise if that makes sense.

Although like I said in my previous post, I *am* surprised at just how far she went, which was a bit of an emotional downer for sure but I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing - it adds to the tragedy of her story arc.

And actually one thing I wasn't keen on which might just be how it was shot and edited, but it almost seemed at times like Dany was killing innocents just for the sake of it. What I took from those scenes *overall* was that Dany was slaughtering the soldiers and didn't care how many innocents were caught in it, but it definitely felt like some shots were all/mostly random innocents and that she was just killing everyone.

[lordxizor]

but it definitely felt like some shots were all/mostly random innocents and that she was just killing everyone.

That's because she was just killing everyone. She wiped out the entire city.

When she was speaking with Jon earlier and decided that since no one in Westeros loves her that she would have to lead by fear, she obviously convinced herself that wiping out the whole city was the only way to strike fear in the hearts of all of Westeros so they would follow her.

[lordxizor]

My prediction for the last episode for what it's worth:

No one ends up on the iron throne. Westeros breaks up into it's original 7 kingdoms. Jon kills Dany, goes back north, leaves Sansa in charge and goes beyond the wall to join the free folk.

[ariich]

but it definitely felt like some shots were all/mostly random innocents and that she was just killing everyone.

That's because she was just killing everyone. She wiped out the entire city.

When she was speaking with Jon earlier and decided that since no one in Westeros loves her that she would have to lead by fear, she obviously convinced herself that wiping out the whole city was the only way to strike fear in the hearts of all of Westeros so they would follow her.

Ah yeah, I forgot about that scene. Good point. My initial interpretation is probably wrong in that case and she really went completely off the deep end. Jeez.

Thinking about it now, a season or two ago, when she began actively talking about returning to Westeros to take her throne, there were discussions among some characters (can't remember who but probably involving Tyrion and Varys) about whether the people would accept her considering they don't know her.

[ariich]

My prediction for the last episode for what it's worth:

No one ends up on the iron throne. Westeros breaks up into it's original 7 kingdoms.

I increasingly think this will be the case as well. 99% certain Dany will be killed, and of all the lineages who have sat on the throne, Jon is the only other one surviving except Gendry, who could possibly end up on the throne but I don't think he will. And I don't think Jon will accept it, assuming he survives.

[KevShmev]

I was fine with how quickly she took out the scorpions last night.  She basically dive bombed them from the sky first thing in the morning when the sun was in her favor and took out the ones in the front before they knew what hit them, and then looped around and took out the rest from the back before they could turn around and fire. 

[ariich]

I was fine with how quickly she took out the scorpions last night.  She basically dive bombed them from the sky first thing in the morning when the sun was in her favor and took out the ones in the front before they knew what hit them, and then looped around and took out the rest from the back before they could turn around and fire. 

Yeah I was fine with that too, in and of itself. It does feel kinda of inconsistent with the preivous episode, but eh, I don't think that too big a deal really.

[gmillerdrake]

I was fine with how quickly she took out the scorpions last night.  She basically dive bombed them from the sky first thing in the morning when the sun was in her favor and took out the ones in the front before they knew what hit them, and then looped around and took out the rest from the back before they could turn around and fire. 

Yeah I was fine with that too, in and of itself. It does feel kinda of inconsistent with the preivous episode, but eh, I don't think that too big a deal really.

Yep. She used the rising sun to neuter the scorpions on the Iron Fleet ship....they detailed that with Euron constantly holding his hands over his eyes.....then....the fixed scorpions built on the walls of Kingslanding she came in from the side and straight above....perfectly executed tactfully. They did a good job of showing that as well. The reason they were useless is because she and Drogon found their weakness and exploited it.

I liked the episode a lot. I think that’s right where Dany’s character has been heading for some time and the moment she whispered ‘then by fear’ to Jon at Dragonstone everyone in Kingslanding was toast. And it was a spectacle to see.

Clegane bowl went about as expected....with both of them dying. Just ‘what’ the F did Qyburn do to the Mountain? Jeez.....was he even alive?

I was way off on Jamie.....he went back for Cersi because he loved her. I guess I shouldn’t be surprised but I was certain he was going back to kill her. Their death was fitting. Alone....yet together. That scene between he and Tyrion was awesome.

As some of us have been speculating for a bit now....it’s looking like Jon is going to have to kill Dany....question is....what happens after that?

The episode was visually stunning and a really fun one to watch. Can’t believe it’s almost over

[MoraWintersoul]

Something like this has been on the cards for a while and I honestly thought everyone knew that, and so I'm surprised at the amount of surprise if that makes sense.

Honestly, if I take my cynicism out of it*, I think they've been dancing on a really thin line and haven't been skillful enough to convey it properly, which is why people are surprised. If there were real danger in season 7 and the beginning of 8, you'd see Tyrion and Varys scrambling to replace her much earlier than EP4, but you can't have her out burning things indiscriminately much earlier than that, because how can you stop someone with two dragons. The early episodes focusing on Dany's love for Jon and sacrificing a lot of her army to help the North when she could have just fucked off to KL, torched Cersei and then sent all her newly acquired forces to help the North didn't help to reaffirm our doubts in her. They played it as "dutiful, listening Targ knows she must keep herself in check until she's lost too much and it's too late" until the tail end of this short season for shock. Even you were shocked by the extent of the carnage.

I think it would have been more gray if they filled out the world a little more and if after burning the Red Keep with some civil casualties, her council struggled to keep her from burning everyone in the other kingdoms who didn't bend the knee, culminating in Jon realizing they went too far, and killing her, in another episode. In Robert's Rebellion, they killed a lot of good men who weren't complicit with Aerys' madness to get the throne, and we still love those characters - this way, the blame of the horrors of war is solely on her, so we can conveniently forgive everyone who supported her way to the throne, including the "good Starks". Even now when they got everything out of the way and Jon's hands are mostly clean and hers are not, she's still a problem, because she still has the dragon and the armies. How is Drogon gonna react to seeing his dead mother? Are her forces going to try to avenge her, or are they gonna serve the new king?

*my cynicism says they wanted to keep all the team Dany people fully on board and not questioning anything and then shock them like they shocked team Robb show-only watchers with the Red Wedding.

[gmillerdrake]

I think Drogon will obey Jon over Dany because he will ‘know’ or sense that Jon is the true King....leading to her final ‘betrayal’.

[Chino]

I think Drogon will obey Jon over Dany because he will ‘know’ or sense that Jon is the true King....leading to her final ‘betrayal’.

I expected that last night actually. When Dany gave the order for Drogon to torch Varys, it looks like for a second that he was disobeying.

[The Walrus]

After watching it twice that is definitely my favorite episode of the season by a country mile. I just want to get through work, get home, and watch it again. 

[cramx3]

I kind of like Dany's turn this episode.  I kept thinking, maybe this was all set up and she wouldn't pull the trigger.  Or maybe she will only go  half mad king.  But seeing the brutality and that shock of when she finally did start killing everyone was shockingly amazing.  I kept thinking she wouldn't really just burn the innocents in the streets but they showed that first shot of her doing it and I couldn't believe my eyes.  Then you had Greyworm sitting there in the stand still just taking out his anger.  You see Dany's eyes and how angry she is.  It felt like the culmination of all the pent up anger from this series being let out. 

[Nick]

But I will not let them get away with one fatal flaw: 

Oh what, now the scorpions just aren't a problem? FUCK THAT    These things were built up over all this time as this big game changer, killed a dragon effortless just one episode ago and now she takes them all out in a couple of minutes? Fuck that shit

Easily my biggest complaint about the episode. The fleet alone last episode was able to hit a dragon with like, 8 of 10 bolts but then this time around I want to say everyone became a fucking stormtrooper, but even that's kinda inaccurate because they didn't even get shots off. It's a fucking dragon, you can't track where it's at and preemptively turn to aim at it? Either they should have had a harder time killing a dragon last episode or an easier time getting a hit or two in this one, but that was laughably inconsistent.

===

On to some other points:

I really have mixed emotions about the end to the Kingslayer after his big redemption, but as with much of his story was glad his final evil intentions were intertwined with good works as well.

I loved the simple stupidity of Euron, he died "knowing" he fucked the queen, had a prince on the way, and killed Jamie, and probably died happier than any other person that day.

I really don't know what to think of Bran at this point. On one hand I think he has to be responsible for the horse at the end, otherwise that whole scene is just too unbelievable. That said if he had interests in the game of thrones (up to this point it seemed, like the Lord of Light, his interest was purely the Night King), that he would have offered something to help stop that slaughter.

Speaking of which, my horror is shared with Tyrion. After the bells rang and the dragon took off I thought Danny was headed for the castle with Cersei. When she started indiscriminately torching the city I was truly bothered. After all the death of the battle of Winterfell to have all those innocents die was heartbreaking, and will make picking up the pieces of whoever sits on the Iron Throne much more difficult.

===

And so who sits on the Iron Throne?

It seems obvious they will have to overthrow Danny in some way, but who knows, perhaps they give us all the finger and the Mad Queen reigns till the end.

Jon is the obvious choice, and for that reason alone it might not be him. Once Danny is gone, assuming she is, there will be a combination of heartbreak, the fact he doesn't want the throne, and the guilt of allowing Danny the opportunity to torch King's Landing.

The final part applies to Tyrion as well, who tried his best to set things right, but in the end did not move to stop Danny and essentially executed Varrys.

How it gets there I don't know, but I can see Tyrion taking Varrys' advice and somehow getting Sansa on the throne. I would personally hate this as Sophie Turner is probably my least favorite actor/actress in the series, but a reasonable dark horse.