Game of Thrones (TV, fantasy) Thread

[MirrorMask]

In fairness, there aren't as many characters as there used to be.

Truth! I generally felt like the pacing was actually pretty good in Season 7. The second-to-last episode is the one I wouldn't want them imitating.

Beyond the Wall, right? that could have been one of the landmark episodes of the entire series, and it was almost ruined by the ridiculous shrinking continent that allowed a raven to fly from the Wall to Dragonstone and Dany to get there in the blink of an eye.

[Adami]

The pacing is VERY fast in 6 and 7, compared to the first 3 seasons. People are just kind of moving at the speed of light, which gets tiresome.

[RuRoRul]

I liked Beyond The Wall when it aired despite the problems, just completed my rewatch (and first rewatch of Season 7 since just after it aired - before that I think I rewatched the series each year before the new one came out from S4 onward), and I liked it a lot again. If anything more than I remembered since I had mostly remembered the story problems with it and forgotten how enjoyable the interactions between the characters north of the Wall were.

I agree it had the potential to be one of the greatest episodes of the series but falls short because of glaring story problems that broke people's suspension of disbelief. Beyond The Wall isn't unique in having logic that falls apart if scrutinised - lot of big moments in stories actually don't make that much sense if you stop to think about them - but it's only such a problem when things are so glaring that the lots of the audience is left thinking about the underlying logic of how we got to the moment instead of the moment itself. You could nitpick more minor things but I think there's only two important problems with Beyond The Wall that smack the viewers in the face:

1. The entire premise of obtaining a single wight to show Cersei to convince her to make a temporary peace is extremely flawed.
2. The message to and arrival of Daenerys which seems extremely swift and breaks established rules of the show (see below).

Honestly I think the episode could have got away with just one of those flaws. The mission to get a wight was really poorly justified in story, but that was all setup and the rushed decisions that make little sense were packed in the previous episode - treat Beyond The Wall as a standalone film where a bunch of grizzled warriors are already on a mission to capture a wight and we accept their goal as part of the premise and it's solid. So it could have been enjoyed as a great episode with the caveat that "Ok, the decisions in previous episodes that brought us here didn't make much sense, BUT..."

However, compound that with the Daenerys flight and you have a story with a flimsy premise that's probably already in the back of the viewer's mind and a resolution that not only breaks the established expectations of distance in the show, but repeatedly smacks the viewer in the face with the fact that it is doing so rather than doing so offscreen so that you don't notice it until the action is over. And it's not about measuring the distances in miles or worrying about the airspeed velocity of a laden or unladen raven. The show has always been imprecise about time and distance, and the books may be more detailed but they are not much better about numbers either. The important thing isn't what would be technically possible given the supposed physical distance between places, but the "distance" that's implied by the logic of the show. And flying or no flying, getting a message to someone on the other side of Westeros and them responding (never mind arriving in person) has never before happened all within the timeframe of one "sequence". If a raven needed to get somewhere, or someone had to wait for a reply, there was always room for an indeterminate amount of time to pass off screen. There was never an immediate problem that had to be resolved by awaiting a return of a raven. Yes, technically it's possible that enough time passed while Jon and the others were on the frozen lake that Daenerys could have got a raven and the dragons could have flown there... but other than it appearing to be at least "overnight" the show never hints at the amount of time that passes, and by having Jon surrounded by wights which are literally a stone's throw away creating a sense of urgency, it forces the viewer to think about literally how long it will take a raven or dragon to fly somewhere in terms of hours and minutes, rather than just "however many days it takes a raven or dragon to get somewhere".

All pretty obvious I know, but having rewatched it last week and seeing the comments here I was just thinking about its problems again - and sometimes I think some of the criticism I see elsewhere misses the forest for the trees when bitching about Daenerys' flight. Unfortunately I think a handful of minor tweaks to the episode could have basically solved the second issue while giving Daenerys a more interesting and heroic storyline for that episode. A couple slightly more substantial changes in the previous episode and you could even better justify the "capture a wight" storyline, but it would have meant making Daenerys make a more fundamental mistake that wasn't apparently just Tyrion's fault which the show didn't seem to want to go for in that season.

[MirrorMask]

Well, I buy the "Let's show Cersei a wight" thing - she actually saw it, and yet she was like, to quote what Jaimie said and that should be the Lannister official motto, "Fuck everyone who isn't us". So bringing definitive and conclusive proof of what's beyond the Wall is something I can get on board it.

You addressed perfectly the distance issue however, and the ending was so obvious. I mean, the moment you know they ask for help through the raven, does anybody who has seen exactly more than one movie in his life had any doubts that there would have been the suprise and badass arrival of Dany with the dragons setting fire to the wights? I was just waiting for that during the scenes on them on the lake.

I don't know how I would have fixed the scene; if the castles were on the other side of the Wall, they could have the protagonists caught in a siege, and have a discussion about "the last food left by people who manned this castle will last only two other days". Something like that. But them being stuck on a lake feels like the survivors of the Titanic stuck on an island, sending a raven to New York, and someone from New York arriving.

[The Curious Orange]

UNLESS they were 2 separate ravens. The raven that Dany receives could have been sent by someone else, much earlier, in anticipation that Jon and co. would run into trouble. Bran, perhaps?

[RuRoRul]

My thought for a minimal change that mostly removes the problem of the distance between Dragonstone and the Wall is that there is no raven that reaches Daenerys at Dragonstone - Daenerys already  decides to leave Dragonstone to go to Eastwatch on her own. The scenes Daenerys has in the episode are her talking to Tyrion and (among other things) worrying about and wistfully thinking about Jon, and also complaining about remaining on Dragonstone doing nothing. So rather than having to wait for a raven specifically telling her Jon's party is in danger, those motivations she has fit perfectly with her regretting sending Jon, Jorah and the others on such a dangerous mission alone, feeling helpless and useless sitting doing nothing so far away from them, and wanting to go somewhere closer to the action - in fact you'd barely need to change the dialogue of her scene talking to Tyrion by the fire. My preference (to make her arrival have more dramatic impact) would be not explicitly showing her leave Dragonstone but have her clearly considering it after her conversation, but if you just have to have that shot of the dragons taking off from the cliffs so you can put it in the trailers, then you can still include that although it makes it less surprising. Then when Gendry reaches Eastwatch and says they need to send a raven to Daenerys, Davos can say "You won't need a raven lad" or something, because Daenerys already came to Eastwatch at some point during the mission beyond the wall. She can then be presumed to fly out from Eastwatch after Gendry tells her roughly where they were.

Maybe people would still complain that it would be stupid or convenient for Daenerys to just go to Eastwatch, but to me at least that'd be a better character arc for Daenerys in that episode since she actually takes the initiative to invest more in Jon and the Eastwatch mission herself rather than waiting for a raven, as well as avoiding the "raven to Dragonstone" problem.

[MirrorMask]

I like your idea.

Earlier I complained about the whole Arya vs. Waif fiasco, I think those scenes could have been more realistic with some very minor tweakings as well.

All they needed to do was:

- Show Arya actually kicking the Waif's ass during the training, and not just being able to defend herself once;
- Have Arya being very aware of the danger she was in rather than walking calmly around like a rich girl on holiday;
- As a direct consequence, she would have immediately realized that the "sweet old lady" was the Waif in disguise, and therefore avoid the direct attack and getting only a scrape on her arm or even a superficial, near-miss wound on the stomach, rather than the fatal, repeated stabbing she got.

This way you estabilish that Arya can defeat the Waif, that she's mindful of her surroundings, and you can still have the taking shelter with the actress + discovery and chase across the town + final fight in the dark without it feeling too cheap.

[RuRoRul]

Agree about the Arya and the Waif scenes. Though with Arya's training, she was blind but the Waif was not so I don't know if blind Arya needs to kick the non-blind Waif's ass, but she definitely could have been shown to fare a bit better in her blind fighting training to establish that she would have the edge once both of them were in the dark. I agree about the stabbing and the chase: harmless and kind seeming old lady that kinda looks like the Waif approaching out of the blue saying "sweet girl..." seems like the level of ruse that she should have been pretty prepared for even without going to ridiculous levels of paranoia. And she shouldn't have been almost fatally injured if she was going to have to run, jump and fall through the streets the next day. Audiences aren't impressed when they notice a supposedly badly wounded character doing impossible things, they just think that it doesn't make sense.

Well, I buy the "Let's show Cersei a wight" thing - she actually saw it, and yet she was like, to quote what Jaimie said and that should be the Lannister official motto, "Fuck everyone who isn't us". So bringing definitive and conclusive proof of what's beyond the Wall is something I can get on board it.

The scene in the Dragonpit in the last episode is well executed and does make you feel that seeing a wight in the flesh might convince anyone. But in Eastwatch (the 5th episode) where everyone suddenly decides capturing a wight to show Cersei is what they need to do, it doesn't come across as believable to me. Not so much because Cersei couldn't be scared by the prospect of the dead but because it just didn't feel clear that they actually needed Cersei at all or that she could be trusted to help them even if they convinced her of the threat. Daenerys was the much more important ally to bring to the cause. In the show she already said she was willing to fight the White Walkers but the reason she didn't want to was because it would give advantage to Cersei: "As soon as I march away, she marches in" is the quote. This was the logic used to say convincing Cersei was necessary. But it feels like a big leap that convincing Cersei is necessary or useful if Daenerys is already basically on board, when instead it seems like Jon could have just hung around another day or two, maybe took another stroll into the cave with Daenerys, and managed to convince her to come North and forget Cersei until the dead are defeated. Since getting Daenerys is the key I think it'd be better if it was Daenerys herself that needed evidence - if she said that she refused to abandon her quest for the Iron Throne, even temporarily, without seeing evidence (either in the form of a wight or someone she really trusts seeing it with their own eyes, i.e. Jorah). Then Jon and the others would actually have a concrete reason to go Beyond The Wall rather than the small chance of convincing Cersei who a) can't be trusted and b) isn't really necessary if you already have Daenerys on side.

Also... in the same episode Eastwatch where the "capture a wight" plan is formulated, we have a scene where Sam tries to convince the Archmaesters in the Citadel of the threat of the White Walkers when they get a raven from Bran. This is the conversation:

Sam: Everyone in Westeros trusts and respects you. If you tell people the threat is real, they'll believe it. If you advise all the lords to send their men north to hold the Wall, they'll do it. And if you tell every maester in the Citadel to search every word of every faded scroll about the Long Night, they may find something that lets us defeat the Army of the Dead for good.
Archmaester: It could be done. And this news could be authentic. It's possible. It's also possible that this message is part of a ploy by the Dragon Queen to lure southern armies away from the lands they are currently defending to open those lands to easy conquest.
...
Sam: Archmaester, please. It's real. I've seen it.
Archmaester: We will write to Maester Wolkan at Winterfell for clarification. I promise you we will get to the truth of it one way or another.

Hello!? If we're talking about bringing evidence from beyond the Wall, these are the exact guys that might actually be convinced by a live(?) specimen. And I can't stress enough, this conversation occurs literally two scenes before the plan is formulated to go and capture a wight, yet the idea of using evidence to convince the maesters never enters into the conversation, either before or after they get the wight. It couldn't have been possible for Sam to send a raven to Jon and tell him that the Citadel (a "neutral" institution of Westeros that anyone hoping to rule it would like to have on their side) might be convinced if they had direct evidence? With a little tighter writing they could have linked the Citadel storyline with the rest of the season's main plot and given a more credible reason why a wight specimen would be needed.

Sorry for the lengthy rant about it, but watching Season 7 again it was just frustrating how even when I try to just take the capture a wight storyline as it comes and not nitpick it, they fumbled so many things that would make it a lot more credible and seem like less of a rushed way to just get the characters to the setpieces for the last two episodes.

[cramx3]

well, all this is what happens when you let someone else take over the well written books of another. 

[The Walrus]

https://atlasoficeandfireblog.files.wordpress.com/2016/03/westeros-population.png

Oldtown is much farther south than King's Landing. I know, I know, Gendry ran back to the Wall and Dany showed up all in the span of half a day, but... they'd also have to show Cersei anyway, because it's not like the maesters have an army. What exactly would they do? Shake their jowels and scoff and say, "Absurd, absurd! This cannot be real." etc. 

[MirrorMask]

Sorry for the lengthy rant about it

No need to be sorry, I enjoyed reading it and I essentially agree with you 

I imagine this scenario happening with Lord of the Rings - only the first two books are out, and Return of the King has to be filmed without the book as guideline, what a mess it could have been  (even though I guess the ending and specifically how the Ring gets destroyed was planned by the very beginning so you can't mess it up even trying... and they almost did anyway, showing an unnecessary brawl between Frodo and Gollum on the edge)

[The Curious Orange]

well, all this is what happens when you let someone else take over the well written books of another.

Well written? The first three, yes, but books 4 and 5 are dire.

[ReaperKK]

This is brilliant if you guys haven’t seen it:

https://youtu.be/vw2SaHkGfss

[gmillerdrake]

This is brilliant if you guys haven’t seen it:

https://youtu.be/vw2SaHkGfss

Yeah. She was spot on....and it REALLY could have fooled the audience had Fallon been even a smidgen convincing.

[ReaperKK]

I thought it was legit this morning, needless to say her acting skills are fantastic.

[Adami]

I honestly believe for things like Marvel or GoT, HBO and Disney hire Tom Cruise from Minority Report to intercept them if they are about to spoil things. So if Tom cruise doesn't kill them, I know it's not a spoiler.

[The Walrus]

I believed Maisie. Fallon wasn't that convincing. Good stuff though, I loved how dead the audience went.

Folks... only 2 more Sundays. I can't believe it's this close. I am going to buy a few massive bags of popcorn, load the steins with beer, and invite some friends over for a (QUIET!) viewing. 

[cramx3]

Yea I kind of forgot how close we are now.  Watched season 7 episode 1 last night.

[King Postwhore]

I always watch it the next night.  5 am wake up call so early to bed on Sundays.

[cramx3]

I always watch it the next night.  5 am wake up call so early to bed on Sundays.

I don't know how I could survive on mondays though, the internet and everyone is just talking about it.

[Chino]

I always watch it the next night.  5 am wake up call so early to bed on Sundays.

I don't know how I could survive on mondays though, the internet and everyone is just talking about it.

I tread very lightly the following day. I may have mentioned this before, but I had a huge plot point spoiled on fucking LinkedIn of all places.

[King Postwhore]

I always watch it the next night.  5 am wake up call so early to bed on Sundays.

I don't know how I could survive on mondays though, the internet and everyone is just talking about it.

I avoid it online and give a mean death stare to any talking about it.

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

That was great, I even heard some genuie "awws" for Maisie from the audience.  The fact that actors for major franchises dosen't drop major spoilers more often is pretty amazing.

[gmillerdrake]

That was great, I even heard some genuie "awws" for Maisie from the audience.  The fact that actors for major franchises dosen't drop major spoilers more often is pretty amazing.

Enter Tom Holland.....

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1LYZyDKOfY

[lonestar]

Just got through Princess Shereen's death on my preparatory re-watch, and I think that was the worst death on the show, much harder than Hodor's. Damn I loved her character.

[gmillerdrake]

Just got through Princess Shereen's death on my preparatory re-watch, and I think that was the worst death on the show, much harder than Hodor's. Damn I loved her character.

So true. Hodor's was tough but Shereen's was brutal....her calling out to her parents....man. Davos's reaction when he learns she died the way she died is tough to take also.....when he tells Jon Snow what happened. A lot of emotion in that scene.

[The Walrus]

It's those off-camera blood curdling screams. Every time, they give me goosebumps. Very hard to listen to.

[lonestar]

Exactly man...and the fact that her, along with Hodor, Pod and Sam, are by far the most noble characters on the show.



Oh man, Arya's about to fuck this dude up in the brothel 

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

It's those off-camera blood curdling screams. Every time, they give me goosebumps. Very hard to listen to.

Yea even when I saw it on my second re-watch I had a hard time not getting affected by it, such a brutal thing.

Oberyn's death was also shocking but more in a "I can't believe the show had the guts to do that" sort of way. I liked Oberyn but man I LOVED how he died if that makes any sense. 

[The Walrus]

I think my all-time favorite death in the show is Joffrey's, but Oberyn's is way up there. And, actually, Tommen's, because it was so artfully shot.

[MirrorMask]

Joffrey's death had me with a savage grin. I didn't know-really-know that it would happen, but I read here and there on the web references to a "purple wedding" and I figured out something was going down. When he starting to choke I was "Uh oh, here we go, bwhaha", and I enjoyed every moment of it. Congrats to Jack Gleeson for having portrayed him in such a way that it made everyone happy to see a teenage kid dying horribly in the arms of his helpless parents 

The Red Wedding obviously hurt, but Oberyn maybe hurt even more. Shireen and Hodor hurt in a "I thought after the Red Wedding I was ready for everything but no" way.

Oh, and Jon beating the shit out of Ramsay had me doing air punching 

Speaking of Ramsay's demise - rewatch the scene where Wun Wun tears down the gate and falls down deeply hurt, he locks eyes with Jon and neither of them is looking at Ramsay who's in front of them, has a clear shot and between Jon and the giant............ shoots the giant. 

Why, after all, killing your arch rival that represents the entire North against you when you can kill a giant? 

[MrBoom_shack-a-lack]

Oh man after 586 days since the s07 finale it's now only 9 or 10 days left depending on when I have time to see it. Excited I AM!! 

[gmillerdrake]

Why, after all, killing your arch rival that represents the entire North against you when you can kill a giant? 

I think the simplest answer is he thought he was going to kill them both. I don't think he thought Jon would be able to block the three arrows he fired at him and ultimately get to him. So, killing the Giant to make sure it was never a problem again probably made sense to him at the time. Who knows??

[MirrorMask]

I didn't think of that, it makes sense actually.

Also the whole "Rickon why don't you ziz-zag ffs" thing was not as bad as I remember. He did look back once or twice and by the time Jon was about to grab him, he was of course concentrated on Jon rescuing him and didn't pay attention the fatal arrow getting him. It looked worse at the first watching, I remember the uproar on the internet about it 

[The Walrus]

I really love the shots of Jon blocking those arrows at close range. Look how far they pierce through the shield, and Jon was smart enough to hold the shield far enough in front of him to block them without getting hit. Brilliant scene, I jumped and cheered when he wailed on Ramsay