Author Topic: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.  (Read 4638 times)

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Offline Ravenheart

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I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« on: March 24, 2011, 10:11:55 PM »
It seems like it's become sacrilege to challenge anyone's opinion over anything anymore. We're all expected to respect everyone's opinions out of fear of offending them, no matter how stupid and ignorant their opinions appear to you.

This is just one example, but after watching the movie Crash in my TOK class, a girl spoke up and said, "I hated that movie!!" I inquired as to why, and she responded with, "because of all the swearing and racism." My response was, "Well, that's the point. It was all there for a reason." Instead of bothering to defend her position, she just resorted to "it's an opinionnnnn! It's an opinionnnnnnnnnnn!"

I wasn't confrontational. I wasn't off-putting. I was actually really calm, and it's a class where you're supposed to debate topics. The whole reason we even watched the movie was to discuss it.

Of course, that's just one example. I'm sure we've all heard (and maybe used) "That's YOUR opinion!!!," I have the right to my opinion!," "It's all subjective! There's no point in debating it because we'll never reach an agreement!"

I don't get it. What's the point of believing in or taking a stance on anything if the most you'll defend it with is that it's your opinion? Isn't there a reason you believe it? Can't you articulate it?

Obviously, not everything needs to be scrutinized, and it's best to choose your "battles" wisely. But when you feel outsmarted, it's best to just be mature and admit it. "I have the right to my opinion" translates to, "My opinion is agonizingly ignorant, but I have the right to it, and you can't question it at all," at least to me. It just seems like a double-edged sword.

Facts can't be argued over because they're well-established facts that are provable over and over again (usually). But I'm not allowed to debate a subjective topic because there will be different viewpoints? That just sounds silly to me. This political correctness crap is abundant.

I'm not starting this thread looking for a fight, simply a discussion. What do you all think?

Offline KevShmev

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #1 on: March 24, 2011, 10:20:13 PM »
I know exactly what you mean.  I always laugh at people, whether in real life or on the 'net, who throw out some opinionated comment and then either don't want to expand on it or cop out with the "It's just my opinion" defense.  

I should also add that, because of the combative nature of most people in such conversations, I don't like talking/debating religion or politics anymore, anywhere.  It only leads to arguments, many times nasty ones.

But really, on an online DISCUSSION forum, if you throw out a comment that is opinionated or controversial at all, you had better be ready to defend your position.  Otherwise, why are you posting on a discussion forum?

Offline ricky

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #2 on: March 24, 2011, 10:21:11 PM »
was this thread written for me? i think so.
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Offline Ravenheart

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #3 on: March 24, 2011, 10:22:24 PM »
I know exactly what you mean.  I always laugh at people, whether in real life or on the 'net, who throw out some opinionated comment and then either don't want to expand on it or cop out with the "It's just my opinion" defense. 

I should also add that, because of the combative nature of most people in such conversations, I don't like talking/debating religion or politics anymore, anywhere.  It only leads to arguments, many times nasty ones.
Yeah, and I think maybe that's where the "it's my opinion" defense comes into play. Religious and political debates just degrade into personal attacks and insults instead of focusing on the topic at hand. Still, it's a security blanket that is as misapplied as it is overplayed.

Offline El Barto

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #4 on: March 24, 2011, 10:35:51 PM »
I admit, there are times where I just don't feel like explaining myself.  I'll argue with anybody about anything, but sometimes I just want to stay the hell out of a discussion.  Although if I do make a point about something I'll certainly see it through.

In her case, it sounds like she was in over her head and just wanted out.  As I realized with the Huck Finn debate, many people just can't see the message through the narrative.  But there is another perspective.  Though simplistic, that actually was her opinion and was perfectly valid to her.  You or I might say that it was retarded, but if she can't see that, then what else was she supposed to say about it?
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Offline juice

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #5 on: March 24, 2011, 10:39:53 PM »
I try not to make a claim without being able to back it up.

Offline Riceball

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #6 on: March 24, 2011, 10:42:24 PM »
Generally speaking, I've found that the people who are so closed off from debating are the people who prefer ignorance to knowledge and comfort to challenge. There's a place for these people in the world, but they just look at things from a different perspective. Its BS to people like myself, yourself, shit most people on this awesome forum, because we enjoy debate and to be challenged.

Maaaan reading that back sounds so elitist lol. But on some levels, its true. Some people prefer to live their lives close minded, which is there decision so there's really nothing wrong with that.

Ofcourse, this is just my opinion so noone dare challenge me.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #7 on: March 24, 2011, 10:43:01 PM »
Yeah, it really all depends on how dedicated/intelligent/willing/whatever you want to call it the other person is. I was fortunate enough to have a really cool AP US Government teacher in High School who took the opportunity to turn our very small 9 person class into a forum for a variety of topics. Instead of a boring 60 minute period of discussing the inner workings of the government we touched on so many hot topic issues and got a ton of interesting responses. We did have a couple less adept debaters that had some stubborn viewpoints but that mostly lead to a lot of laughs, in a good way, like when my friend desperately tried to compare putting special ed kids in regular ed classes to putting Junior Varsity basketball players on an NBA team so "they'd eventually learn to get better through tougher competition".

Offline Riceball

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #8 on: March 24, 2011, 10:44:26 PM »
...when my friend desperately tried to compare putting special ed kids in regular ed classes to putting Junior Varsity basketball players on an NBA team so "they'd eventually learn to get better through tougher competition".

Gold
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Offline j

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #9 on: March 24, 2011, 10:44:36 PM »
Also keep in mind that most people have trouble separating a discussion from their personal pride, and their own insecurities cause them to take it personally and become defensive.  In other words, they're arguing to "win" and avoid being humbled, rather than actually trying to come to a better understanding of the issue.

This is of course, assuming that Barto's point doesn't apply, and that it's actually a somewhat thoughtful and legitimate opinion.

-J

EDIT:

Ofcourse, this is just my opinion so noone dare challenge me.

 :lol

Offline SPNKr

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #10 on: March 24, 2011, 10:49:11 PM »
inb4socialretardationandkidsbeingstupid

I agree with OP, though.

Offline Accelerando

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #11 on: March 24, 2011, 10:58:36 PM »
Well I think you should consider if they are debating opinion vs. debating facts. I can see people challenging people based on politics and history, such as "I think the reason we went to war in Iraq is because blankety blank."  But i think it's pointless to push somebody if they are saying "Hey i hated Bio-dome because it was a bad movie" That's an opinion.

Offline ricky

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #12 on: March 25, 2011, 12:16:13 AM »
Yeah, it really all depends on how dedicated/intelligent/willing/whatever you want to call it the other person is. I was fortunate enough to have a really cool AP US Government teacher in High School who took the opportunity to turn our very small 9 person class into a forum for a variety of topics. Instead of a boring 60 minute period of discussing the inner workings of the government we touched on so many hot topic issues and got a ton of interesting responses. We did have a couple less adept debaters that had some stubborn viewpoints but that mostly lead to a lot of laughs, in a good way, like when my friend desperately tried to compare putting special ed kids in regular ed classes to putting Junior Varsity basketball players on an NBA team so "they'd eventually learn to get better through tougher competition".


so many things i could do with this post.

orcus, you very well may be the smartest person on this forum.

besides bosky, of course.

edit minus a comma before bosky
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Offline tri.ad

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #13 on: March 25, 2011, 12:57:13 AM »
Heh, I chuckled when I read the points that have been raised here. Much of what was said can/could actually be found on this very forum (duh, how should it be different from any other?). Not that it's too unusual or something, but I still thought of it as interesting.

That said, I generally enjoy debating if it's with people who know what they are talking about, who can back up their points and who don't feel offended if they are presented a counter-argument. These days, however, it seems more like a privilege than something common. Which is kind of sad.
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Offline Vivace

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #14 on: March 25, 2011, 05:31:06 AM »
ug... there's the flip side to that as well... people with opinions who hold onto them as if they are logical and reasonable and any opinion that is contradictory must be unreasonable. I find either to be why I consider logic and reason to have died around the 18th century.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #15 on: March 25, 2011, 05:32:54 AM »
I don't want to talk about it.
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Offline blackngold29

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #16 on: March 25, 2011, 06:48:37 AM »
Some great points all over the place in this thread (really? Intelligent conversation on DTF?)

Barto makes a good point about 'message through narrative,' my mom annoys the heck out of me because she doesn't like swearing in movies. She's watched plenty of movies with 70 f-words in it, enjoyed the overall story, but complains the whole way through about "why do they gotta ruin it like that?" She can never seem to figure out that in two days she'll have forgotten the swearing, but remember how good the story was.

The other debate I don't understand why people get so upset about are ones where I believe something that has no effect on anyone's daily life, but they think I'm nuts. Like I've watched enough of those History Channel shows about Ancient Aliens that they've scientifically convinced me there's something to it (maybe not that Jesus was an human-alien hybrid, but you know, there's something in their overall picture). So many people will dismiss that instantly because it doesn't match conventional thinking, but if you watch three of their best episodes with an open mind I don't see how you couldn't think there's a shade of something true in there. The people that instantly dismiss it though (which is most people) say "Well, it's not like that in the history books." and refuse to listen to the argument that both sides have scientific evidence to back up their arguments; the people that wrote those books weren't there either.

Offline Durg

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #17 on: March 25, 2011, 07:56:50 AM »
I thought about debating why I don't like to debate but I decided not to.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #18 on: March 25, 2011, 08:32:37 AM »
The other debate I don't understand why people get so upset about are ones where I believe something that has no effect on anyone's daily life, but they think I'm nuts. Like I've watched enough of those History Channel shows about Ancient Aliens that they've scientifically convinced me there's something to it (maybe not that Jesus was an human-alien hybrid, but you know, there's something in their overall picture). So many people will dismiss that instantly because it doesn't match conventional thinking, but if you watch three of their best episodes with an open mind I don't see how you couldn't think there's a shade of something true in there. The people that instantly dismiss it though (which is most people) say "Well, it's not like that in the history books." and refuse to listen to the argument that both sides have scientific evidence to back up their arguments; the people that wrote those books weren't there either.
Yeah, preconceptions can be a real bitch.  Most people lack the ability to see beyond them to consider ideas outside of their comfort zone.  A concept that contradicts what they've been told all of their life is usually dismissed pretty quickly by the shallow-minded. 

Another similar problem is the average Joe's inability to reconcile conflicting ideas1.  Some times a concept is both black and white.  Simple people look for the simple rationalization rather than trying to understand both sides of a problem.  Something might be starkly awful yet have other redeeming qualities, but most people will only be able to accept the evil half and shut down any discussion of a possible good side.

The great part about both of these phenomenon is that in either case, the simpler person suffering these deficiencies will invariably think that they're the more enlightened of the two.  Situations where people like this think that I'm a dumbass, and it happens fairly often, really crack me up.

Relating to the OP, opinionnnnnnn girl almost certainly thought that Ravenheart was an idiot who couldn't understand her POV.  Best to let her go on thinking that.  You're not going to changer her mind, and the more effective your attempt, the more it'll solidify her belief that you just don't know what you're talking about.

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Offline Durg

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #19 on: March 25, 2011, 08:58:35 AM »
Relating to the OP, opinionnnnnnn girl almost certainly thought that Ravenheart was an idiot who couldn't understand her POV.  Best to let her go on thinking that.  You're not going to changer her mind, and the more effective your attempt, the more it'll solidify her belief that you just don't know what you're talking about.

OK. I'm just going to add a bit of defense for the girl because I think I might be able to relate.  But I'm at work and should be working and can't sit here and debate about it all day.

I get that she doesn't like movies with lots of swearing in them.  I haven't seen Crash but I can think of another GREAT movie were the F bomb must appear 10,000 times in the script.  That movie is "Good Will Hunting".  What an awesome movie and story but if I watch it on TNT it looks like I'm watching a Japanese movie.  I guess that's probably the way troubled the city kids talk in Boston but for me it takes away from my enjoyment of the movie.  Still great tho.

**rant coming**
The swearing thing has to do with the way I was raised and the way I live my life today.  Plus, when you take a step back and just listen to someone that has to put a damn or an F in front of EVERY SINGLE noun it sounds really ignorant.  The English language is such a vast and flexible language that it really is a shame that we can't find a more creative way to express ourselves then to use the same few words over and over again. 
**done with rant**

I think that I am most likely in the minority with this feeling and I bet you anything the girl thought that too.  Perhaps she was worried that if she tried to debate the OP as to why she didn't like the swearing, that everyone in the class would gang up on her, call her simple minded or a prude.  Has that every happened to me?  Yep.  Maybe it's happened to her and she just didn't want to go there.  Debating one person is one thing, but if your going against a bunch of people, it takes some serious stones not back down.  She probably shouldn't have said anything in the first place if she was afraid to be picked on.  But it don't think she thought the OP was an idiot or anything like that.

So basically it might not be lack of knowledge or simple-mindedness but fear of being singled out or teased.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #20 on: March 25, 2011, 09:04:18 AM »
But dialogue in a movie isn't about trying to have the most eloquent language, it's about developing the story while having characters who are believable. The reason there's so many fucks in Crash is because that's the kind of people those characters are. You're doing a disservice to the story and the characters if you write their dialogue in a way that's unbelievable, even if someone is offended by it.
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #21 on: March 25, 2011, 09:10:03 AM »
I also don't like watching movies with too much language. The Departed comes to mind. People I know thought the dialog was brilliant, but I thought it was just bad writing, throwing curses around here and there to make it sound 'tough.'

Anyway, in defense of opinion girl, "That's my opinion!" is like a first, unconscious step into the realm of actual thinking. Think about it: "I don't care and wasn't paying attention," which is where half of the class likely is, is the first step. The next step is "I have an opinion which is different than yours," which is where opinion girl is. The final step is, of course, "Let's talk about why our opinions are different." 

Offline Durg

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #22 on: March 25, 2011, 09:10:09 AM »
But dialogue in a movie isn't about trying to have the most eloquent language, it's about developing the story while having characters who are believable. The reason there's so many fucks in Crash is because that's the kind of people those characters are. You're doing a disservice to the story and the characters if you write their dialogue in a way that's unbelievable, even if someone is offended by it.

I'm know.  I agree.  But it should be perfectly OK if I don't like it as much because I don't like hearing F bombs every 30 seconds.  I'm not saying that I think the movie should not have the F bombs all through it.  I get it.
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Offline nightmare_cinema

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #23 on: March 25, 2011, 09:20:14 AM »
I couldn't agree more, it's so frustrating when someone won't explain or defend their stance, sticking with 'it's my opinion!' and refusing to carry on any further. It's usually because they know they'll be trashed in a logical, calm debate. I just don't waste my breath with those people.
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Offline KevShmev

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #24 on: March 25, 2011, 09:20:35 AM »
 You're doing a disservice to the story and the characters if you write their dialogue in a way that's unbelievable, even if someone is offended by it.

Along those lines, that is why I didn't like Superbad really at all (aside from the scenes with the cops).  It seemed like all of the conversations were drenched in over the top cursing, but I had people telling me that that is how teenagers talk nowadays, but true, that is pretty sad.  They all didn't talk like that when I was that age, and it just seemed like many of the lines were thrown in for shock value, which apparently was supposed to be funny.

Having said that, many of my favorite movies do feature a lot of cursing, but even though I rarely curse, I guess it is just something I have gotten used to.  

Offline El Barto

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #25 on: March 25, 2011, 09:25:30 AM »
I can't relate to the language thing, personally.  But, something that I'm squeamish about is guys and homosexual related conduct.  If I watched a very good film that also contained numerous scenes of guys making out, I probably wouldn't enjoy it too much.  Great film, but made me uncomfortable.  I will certainly extend that right to somebody who's not comfortable hearing "fuck" 218 times.

Now, I just provided an explanation that might have validated Opinion Girl's point of view.  Wasn't too difficult.  With the OP's usage of "it's an opinionnnnn! It's an opinionnnnnnnnnnn!", a stereotype is conjured up that doesn't lend itself favorably to a rational explanation of the idea.  I don't gather the girl was capable of articulating her discomfort in a reasonable manner and just wanted to bail on the whole thing. 
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Offline j

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #26 on: March 25, 2011, 10:15:48 AM »
**rant coming**
The swearing thing has to do with the way I was raised and the way I live my life today.  Plus, when you take a step back and just listen to someone that has to put a damn or an F in front of EVERY SINGLE noun it sounds really ignorant.  The English language is such a vast and flexible language that it really is a shame that we can't find a more creative way to express ourselves then to use the same few words over and over again. 
**done with rant**

Not that I don't curse, but I definitely think when "fuck" is every other word out of somebody's mouth *in real life*, it can be off-putting and sounds ignorant.  But there are lots of people around who talk that way, so that doesn't mean it will never fit a character that a filmmaker is trying to realistically create or portray.

That said, I think the point can be gotten across with less extreme saturation with offensive language than is sometimes present in movies.  There is not a single movie I've seen where I thought the artistic integrity was compromised by too little profanity from characters who should have been overflowing with it.  On the contrary, I'd rather authenticity be taken more seriously in other more important aspects of the film.

-J

Offline 73109

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #27 on: March 25, 2011, 02:11:33 PM »
I can't relate to the language thing, personally.  But, something that I'm squeamish about is guys and homosexual related conduct.  If I watched a very good film that also contained numerous scenes of guys making out, I probably wouldn't enjoy it too much.  Great film, but made me uncomfortable.  I will certainly extend that right to somebody who's not comfortable hearing "fuck" 218 times.

This is probably not the best place to say this, but I feel the need to. I commend you for being able to separate your personal opinion and your political opinion, and look past what you feel and move on to what is right. If more people could do this, this world wouldn't be as shitty.

Offline Ravenheart

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #28 on: March 25, 2011, 04:07:51 PM »
There's some great stuff here. I'm glad this discussion has gotten as far as it has. Good points here, too.

Also, I didn't mean for the "it's an opinionnnnnnnnn!" thing to sound condescending; that's just how she said it.  :P

Offline Pirate

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #29 on: March 25, 2011, 04:38:49 PM »
I don't see why someone else's opinion should affect you like that. That girl didn't like the amount of swearing in that movie, and so she doesn't like the movie. That's all there is to it. If you asked me what I thought of Rebecca Black's "Friday", I'd tell you the vocals annoyed me and I didn't like it. If you say something like, "I thought the grating vocals gave the song character that other songs in this genre lack" I'd say "Cool, that's your opinion, who asked you?"

There are no universal terms on which we must base our opinions (that have to do with 'liking' something), so not everyone is going to explain their view on your terms. Debate is an area where there are specific terms to argue on. If the question was "Do you think the profane dialogue in Crash added to the realism?" that is a topic with specified terms. You can argue what you think realistic dialogue is, if Crash warranted realistic dialogue, and if the final dialogue was realistic.

Offline Ravenheart

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2011, 04:48:07 PM »
I don't see why someone else's opinion should affect you like that. That girl didn't like the amount of swearing in that movie, and so she doesn't like the movie. That's all there is to it. If you asked me what I thought of Rebecca Black's "Friday", I'd tell you the vocals annoyed me and I didn't like it. If you say something like, "I thought the grating vocals gave the song character that other songs in this genre lack" I'd say "Cool, that's your opinion, who asked you?"

There are no universal terms on which we must base our opinions (that have to do with 'liking' something), so not everyone is going to explain their view on your terms. Debate is an area where there are specific terms to argue on. If the question was "Do you think the profane dialogue in Crash added to the realism?" that is a topic with specified terms. You can argue what you think realistic dialogue is, if Crash warranted realistic dialogue, and if the final dialogue was realistic.
It didn't affect me at all. I couldn't care less if she hated it for a reason I found to be ignorant. I never said there are objective critiques that must be used in order to evaluate something, nor does anyone have to explain at novel-length why they hated or loved something.

If someone says something I disagree with or find ignorant, I'm going to tell them in as respectful of a manner as I can. Opinions aren't sacred. When did it become heresy to challenge someone's view on something? I felt like she was judging it unfairly, so I voiced that, which is what I was supposed to do anyway, considering we were supposed to discuss it afterwards. That's why we watched it.

Saying "it's my opinion" does absolutely nothing except state the blatantly obvious.

Offline Pirate

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2011, 04:53:36 PM »
First of all, this has nothing to do with how hostile either party is acting. Second, not liking a movie for any reason isn't judging it unfairly. This is my point - her first statement was that she hated the movie. This treads over no areas of critique other than like/dislike, which can't be realistically argued. If she had said, "Crash has a disjointed story driven by one-dimensional characters," that would be something to debate upon. It has nothing to do with like/dislike.

Offline lateralus88

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I felt its length in quite a few places.

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Offline Ravenheart

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2011, 05:08:01 PM »
First of all, this has nothing to do with how hostile either party is acting. Second, not liking a movie for any reason isn't judging it unfairly. This is my point - her first statement was that she hated the movie. This treads over no areas of critique other than like/dislike, which can't be realistically argued. If she had said, "Crash has a disjointed story driven by one-dimensional characters," that would be something to debate upon. It has nothing to do with like/dislike.
She decided she hated it because she heard a few words she didn't like, and that was that. When I told her there was a point to it, she refused to discuss it any further. She didn't say, "oh, I know. It was just unpleasant to my ears," which is fine by me. She didn't acknowledge that there was any bias on her part. She just acted like I was attacking her, which I wasn't at all.

Offline Pirate

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Re: I don't get why people are so closed off from debating.
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2011, 05:31:58 PM »
]She decided she hated it because she heard a few words she didn't like
I've already argued this. If she didn't like the dialogue to the point that it was unwatchable, that's all on her and it depends on a like/dislike.