Author Topic: Are We Truly In The End Times?  (Read 107760 times)

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Offline kirksnosehair

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Offline theseoafs

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #281 on: May 16, 2012, 11:46:45 AM »
^ :lol

I've been listening to his playlist of pro-life and WWIII-warning carols. It's hilarious. :lol

According to this guy, WWIII officially began in Nov. 2010, when Obama "provoked" North Korea. Given that it's only supposed to last 7 years, according to him, it better escalate pretty fucking quickly if it's going to finish on time.

EDIT: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SyHP76JvVCE&feature=relmfu

"11, of course, is a homosexual number"  :lol
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 12:01:51 PM by theseoafs »

Offline kirksnosehair

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #282 on: May 16, 2012, 12:11:20 PM »
Doom and Gloom  (Third Eagle's Tune)

Doom and Gloom
Coming Soon
Listen to Third Eagle's tune
Doom and Gloom
God is telling us the end is coming soon
Very soon
You'll see signs up in the sun, stars and moon
Doom and Gloom
Very Soon
Rapture comes at night or noon
Doom and Gloom
Very Soon
If you're ready you will meet the bride and groom
Don't be dumb
Rapture comes
long before the seventh trump
don't be dumb
It will be as in the days of Noah's flood
Rapture comes
Lot and Noah did not have to shed their blood
Don't be dumb
Rapture comes
Twim your wick or face the gun
Don't be dumb
Rapture comes
Fill your lamps
There won't be oil for everyone
Seven years
Tears and Fears
Tribulation will appear
Seven years
Jesus said it will be the very worst
tears and fears
your will think our lovely planet has been cursed
Seven years
Tears and fears
Catholic church will be a ghost
Seven years, tears and fears
Britain, Russia and the US will be toast
World war three, don't blame me
Listen to Third Eagle's plea
World war three
that the new world order plan for what it's worth
don't blame me
'cause Obama will provoke the king of North
World war three, don't blame me
You'll have no 'lectricity
Wold war three, don't blame me
Store some water food and fuel immediately
Antichrist, he's not nice
Take Third Eagle's good advice
Antichrist
He will try to say that Jesus is not lord
He's not nice
He'll behead you if you follow Jesus' word
Antichrist, he's not nice
Take his mark, you'll pay the price
Antichrist, he's not nice
He will take away God'd holy sacrifice
Please don't dread
Armaged'
Have no fear third eagle said
Please don't dread
Jesus said that he will stop the death and pain
Armaged'
Only new world order scum will feel the flame
Please don't dread, Armaged'
Antichrist is such a liar
Please don't dread, Armaged'
If you take his mark you'll join him in the fire
You can win, just don't sin
State of grace you must stay in
You can win
If you never do the filthy sins of flesh
Just don't sin
Think of Mary and her baby in the creche
You can win, just don't sin
Please don't watch pornograpy
You can win, just don't sin
Onan's sin is what will make your God angry
You can win
Just don't sin
At Millenium
God's Peace
Will come again


Offline Omega

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #283 on: May 16, 2012, 02:38:01 PM »
I agree with you about the multiverse. But I think that "fine tuning" is a loaded term because it assigns an inherently positive value to life. Why is a universe with life superior to one without it? Simply because we say so.

No, I never attached any sort of quantitative value to a universe that is life permitting (though, obviously, I would prefer one that is). The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable. At this point, as I would be critical of, the typical atheists simply appeals to the multiverse hypothesis, which, for reasons I've already outlined, would be intellectually disingenuous. Also to note is that the term "fine-tuning" is a term that is completely devoid of any religious or theistic overtones. The term is merely used to describe the complexity and order that we observe in the universe and one which atheistic and agnostic cosmologists and philosophers of science, etc, use without reserve and which one would be unreasonable to deny.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #284 on: May 16, 2012, 03:09:51 PM »
The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable.

We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are. Saying something like "oh if the charge of an electron were different life could never exist", while possibly true, is meaningless because we have no idea whether it's even possible for there to be a universe in which that constant is different.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #285 on: May 16, 2012, 03:20:02 PM »
We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are.

I see no reason to think that there exist other universes than our own. You may or may not agree with that, but it bears mentioning, nonetheless.

Quote
Saying something like "oh if the charge of an electron were different life could never exist", while possibly true, is meaningless because we have no idea whether it's even possible for there to be a universe in which that constant is different.

In an atheistic worldview, I see no reason to think that the parameters for the fine-tuning of the universe are due to anything but mere chance. Unless, of course, one would be foolhardy enough to assert that the parameters of the universal constants which our universe exhibits exist necessarily and consistently in all possible universes at the exact values in which they do, which simply shifts the question to "what was responsible for setting the parameters of the universal constants in the narrow, unchangeable value that they are in now?" Not only would the atheist have to explain how our universe exhibits fine-tuning that allows for the formation of life to the degree that it does, but then would also have to explain how all other possible universes exhibit the exact fine-tuning parameters as our own. No atheistic or agnostic philosopher that I know of has been audacious enough to ever support such an assertion.
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #286 on: May 16, 2012, 03:22:12 PM »
We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are.

I see no reason to think that there exist other universes than our own. You may or may not agree with that, but it bears mentioning, nonetheless.

So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?


Offline Omega

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #287 on: May 16, 2012, 03:29:13 PM »
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #288 on: May 16, 2012, 03:48:23 PM »
We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are.

I see no reason to think that there exist other universes than our own. You may or may not agree with that, but it bears mentioning, nonetheless.

I don't agree or disagree. My point in bringing it up is that even if the constants of the universe are a matter of chance at some point (which is quite possible), we still have no idea about the mechanisms behind it. As a result saying that the constants of our universe are unlikely is unsupportable.

In an atheistic worldview, I see no reason to think that the parameters for the fine-tuning of the universe are due to anything but mere chance.

There's no reason to believe one way or the other. Plus, "they're set in stone" and "it's entirely up to chance and anything could happen" aren't the only two possibilities.
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #289 on: May 16, 2012, 04:19:15 PM »
No, I never attached any sort of quantitative value to a universe that is life permitting (though, obviously, I would prefer one that is). The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable. At this point, as I would be critical of, the typical atheists simply appeals to the multiverse hypothesis, which, for reasons I've already outlined, would be intellectually disingenuous. Also to note is that the term "fine-tuning" is a term that is completely devoid of any religious or theistic overtones. The term is merely used to describe the complexity and order that we observe in the universe and one which atheistic and agnostic cosmologists and philosophers of science, etc, use without reserve and which one would be unreasonable to deny.

Fine-tuning does have theistic overtones because it begs the question "fine tuned by whom?" It's the old watchmaker argument. Evolution shows us that the universe is a blind watchmaker, and that order and complexity (at least as we perceive them) are emergent. The key thing to realize is that we're programmed through DNA to view life as incredibly special. We're always looking for a reason "why" we were put here on planet Earth, but there is no proof of a "why." Only a "how."

Offline Super Dude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #290 on: May 17, 2012, 08:13:40 AM »
Tangentially related:



Also, I know what you're thinking, and the answer to your question is yes. That is Mike Portnoy.
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Offline Sigz

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #291 on: May 17, 2012, 10:23:37 AM »
 :lol
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Offline Scheavo

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #292 on: May 17, 2012, 02:23:05 PM »
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.

Then I have to ask the question of how this "God" could exist, without the universe existing. Your definition just basically made "God" the Universe. If the Universe doesn't exist, there is no actuality, no Being, and you have just put yourself in a contradictory position.

Besides, saying something is pure "Being" just doesn't make sense. "Being" means a lot of things, most importantly it implies a World and Universe which someone experiences.

Offline Rathma

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #293 on: May 17, 2012, 03:18:54 PM »

Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #294 on: May 17, 2012, 04:11:36 PM »
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.

Then I have to ask the question of how this "God" could exist, without the universe existing. Your definition just basically made "God" the Universe. If the Universe doesn't exist, there is no actuality, no Being, and you have just put yourself in a contradictory position.

Besides, saying something is pure "Being" just doesn't make sense. "Being" means a lot of things, most importantly it implies a World and Universe which someone experiences.

Weird....because I totally didn't get any of that out of what he said. He's making sense, and I have no idea where you're drawing your conclusions from.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #295 on: May 17, 2012, 05:09:35 PM »
I wonder what god did before our universe existed, and what he will do after our universe dies?  I know he is supposedly out of time, but if he did do something in creating the universe, it seems reasonable to think that creating this universe is not the only thing he has done, or will do.  It follows then that there are perhaps an infinite number of universes.  One wouldnt think of god, being the all omnipotent "purest form of existence, of reality" as a one trick pony.
« Last Edit: May 17, 2012, 05:35:13 PM by eric42434224 »
Oh shit, you're right!

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Offline Ħ

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #296 on: May 17, 2012, 05:34:04 PM »
The point is that we do, obviously, observe that our universe is life permitting and we must arrive at a reason as to why it is life permitting, considering that the chances of it being non-life permitting would have been preposterously and infinitely more probable.

We have never observed another universe than our own, so we have no idea what the chances are. Saying something like "oh if the charge of an electron were different life could never exist", while possibly true, is meaningless because we have no idea whether it's even possible for there to be a universe in which that constant is different.

The following is relevant:

Quote from: Robin Collins
One criticism of the fine-tuning argument is that, as far as we know, there could be a more fundamental law under which the parameters of physics must have the values they do. Thus, given such a law, it is not improbable that the known parameters of physics fall within the life-permitting range.

Besides being entirely speculative, the problem with postulating such a law is that it simply moves the improbability of the fine-tuning up one level, to that of the postulated physical law itself. Under this hypothesis, what is improbable is that all the conceivable fundamental physical laws there could be, the universe just happens to have the one that constrains the parameters of physics in a life-permitting way. Thus, trying to explain the fine-tuning by postulating this sort of fundamental law is like trying to explain why the pattern of rocks below a cliff spell "Welcome to the mountains Robin Collins" by postulating that an earthquake occurred and that all the rocks on the cliff face were arranged in just the right configuration to fall into the pattern in question. Clearly this explanation merely transfers the improbability up one level, since now it seems enormously improbable that of all the possible configurations the rocks could be in on the cliff face, they are in the one which results in the pattern "Welcome to the mountains Robin Collins."

A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #297 on: May 17, 2012, 05:44:08 PM »
I think part of the problem is that some people have a very difficult time with the idea life is random.  It reduces our "specialness" in their eyes.  I personally find it makes us even more special.
There is no real evidence either way to prove it is random or planned.  The side of the fence you come down on and defend has much more to do with religious beliefs and ego.
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rumborak

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #298 on: May 17, 2012, 07:40:33 PM »
Quote from: Robin Collins
One criticism of the fine-tuning argument is that, as far as we know, there could be a more fundamental law under which the parameters of physics must have the values they do. Thus, given such a law, it is not improbable that the known parameters of physics fall within the life-permitting range.

Besides being entirely speculative, the problem with postulating such a law is that it simply moves the improbability of the fine-tuning up one level, to that of the postulated physical law itself.

Ironic considering theists propose the most inherently complex fundamental law there could be, which is God.

Offline Scheavo

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #299 on: May 17, 2012, 08:16:39 PM »
So then, where does God belong? If he was around before our universe came to be, than isn't that saying there's some sort of universe other than our own?

I wouldn't say that God exists in his own "universe". God is pure Actuality, pure Being. God is the purest form of existence, of reality. Understood correctly, God is the locus and paradigm of all existence. So, yes, before the universe existed, God existed, but God needn't space or time or energy to exist. To imply that He does is to conceive of a great being, yes, but not one worthy of worship and not one properly understood as God by Aristotle and Aquinas, etc.

Then I have to ask the question of how this "God" could exist, without the universe existing. Your definition just basically made "God" the Universe. If the Universe doesn't exist, there is no actuality, no Being, and you have just put yourself in a contradictory position.

Besides, saying something is pure "Being" just doesn't make sense. "Being" means a lot of things, most importantly it implies a World and Universe which someone experiences.

Weird....because I totally didn't get any of that out of what he said. He's making sense, and I have no idea where you're drawing your conclusions from.

Eh, he's not making much sense at all. What the hell is "pure actuality," "pure being"? What is the "purest form" of reality, especially when reality doesn't yet exist? It's meaningless nonsense.

Quote
A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)

The video I pointed to already showed how faulty this logic is. If there are more than one possibilities, i.e. more than one universe, than even though it might be highly improbable for life-permitting features to be around, then it's simply a matter of having a large enough sample size. I mean, it's highly improbable that I myself exist, not just my parents meeting each other, or them being born, but for the exact sperm which fertilized the egg and led to me.

Simply put, if we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting, that doesn't mean much beyond the fact that we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting. If it wasn't life-permitting, we wouldn't be here, etc.

Offline Ħ

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #300 on: May 17, 2012, 09:53:37 PM »
That argument only works (called the anthropic principle, I think) if there are multiple universes. Given a single universe, Sheavo, your argument doesn't show that the FT of the universe was not improbable.
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Offline Omega

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #301 on: May 17, 2012, 10:10:30 PM »
Fine-tuning does have theistic overtones because it begs the question "fine tuned by whom?" It's the old watchmaker argument. Evolution shows us that the universe is a blind watchmaker, and that order and complexity (at least as we perceive them) are emergent. The key thing to realize is that we're programmed through DNA to view life as incredibly special. We're always looking for a reason "why" we were put here on planet Earth, but there is no proof of a "why." Only a "how."

This reeks terribly of Dawkins' "central argument" in The God Delusion. It is not logically consistent to take a logic which may or may not be true of evolution and then apply it to the universe. Besides, we have an overwhelming amount of evidence to support the self-evident fine-tuning of the universe in merely cosmological and probabilistic terms. By "fine-tuning," all one means is that small deviations from the constants and quantities in question would render the universe life-prohibiting, or, alternatively, that the range of life-permitting vales is incomprehensibly narrow in comparison to the range of assumable values. We can cite a good number of examples of cosmic fine-tuning. The world is conditioned principally by the values of the fundamental constants such as the fine structure constant, or electromagnetic interaction, or gravitation, or the weak force or the strong force, or the ratio between the mass of a proton and the mass of an electron, etc. When one assigns different values to these constants or forces, on discovers that the proportion of observable universes capable of supporting life is shockingly small. For example, according to the renowned physicist Paul Davies (whose lovely house in Phoenix I've had the pleasure of staying at a couple of times; no, I'm not kidding), changes in either the gravitational constant or the weak force constant of only one part in 10100 would have prevented a life-permitting universe. Observations indicate that at 10-43 second after the Big Bang, the universe was expanding at a fantastically special rate of speed with a total density close to the critical values on the bortderline between recollapse and everlasting expansion. Hawking estimates that a decrease in the expansion rate of even one part in a hundred thousand million million (1000000000000000000000000) one second after the Big Bang would have resulted in the universe's recollapse long ago; a similar increase would have precluded galaxies' condensing out of the expanding matter. Calculations indicate that if the strong nuclear force, the force that binds protons and neutrons together in an atom, had been stronger or weaker by as little as 5%, life would be impossible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 4, 35; Barrow and Tipler, p. 322). Calculations by Brandon Carter show that if gravity had been stronger or weaker by 1 part in 1040, then life-sustaining stars like the sun could not exist. This would most likely make life impossible (Davies, 1984, p. 242). If the neutron were not about 1.001 times the mass of the proton, all protons would have decayed into neutrons or all neutrons would have decayed into protons, and thus life would not be possible (Leslie, 1989, pp. 39-40 ). If the electromagnetic force were slightly stronger or weaker, life would be impossible, for a variety of different reasons (Leslie, 1988, p. 299).


There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #302 on: May 17, 2012, 10:14:37 PM »
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #303 on: May 17, 2012, 10:15:49 PM »

There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

This is exactly why you have so many issues in these discussions.  Your position is correct, everyone in disagreement is not only wrong, but intellectually disingenious.
Not only does it immediately cease any chance for a meaningful discussion or debate, but it is insulting.
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #304 on: May 17, 2012, 10:16:49 PM »
I wonder what god did before our universe existed, and what he will do after our universe dies?  I know he is supposedly out of time, but if he did do something in creating the universe, it seems reasonable to think that creating this universe is not the only thing he has done, or will do. It follows then that there are perhaps an infinite number of universes.  One wouldnt think of god, being the all omnipotent "purest form of existence, of reality" as a one trick pony.

Eric, this is one of the few times that you'll see me directly responding to you (sorry; it's for both our sake), but what you are touching on (indeed, only scratching the surface of) is the incredibly complex and philosophically heavy (not to mention incredibly interesting) discussion of God's relation with time. I'd encourage you to, perhaps (I know this is wishful thinking), read or watch some of William Lane Craig's videos / writings on God relation with time. And, just to add, your conclusions do not follow. Let's just leave it at that and on an amicable note, shall we?

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Offline Omega

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #305 on: May 17, 2012, 10:19:24 PM »
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.

Consider; he who denies that our universe is finely tuned to allow for the formation of life is himself an observer in a universe whose constants and forces are finely tuned to allow for the formation of life. In other words, denying that our universe is finely tuned for the formation of life is self-defeating. That is why I thought the use of "disingenuous" and "demonstrably so" were warranted.
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Offline jammindude

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #306 on: May 17, 2012, 10:23:34 PM »

Quote
A similar sort of response can be given to the claim that the fine-tuning is not improbable because it might be logically necessary for the parameters of physics to have life-permitting values. That is, according to this claim, the parameters of physics must have life-permitting values in the same way 2 + 2 must equal 4, or the interior angles of a triangle must add up to 180 degrees in Euclidian geometry. Like the "more fundamental law" proposal above, however, this postulate simply transfers the improbability up one level: of all the laws and parameters of physics that conceivably could have been logically necessary, it seems highly improbable that it would be those that are life-permitting.(3)

The video I pointed to already showed how faulty this logic is. If there are more than one possibilities, i.e. more than one universe, than even though it might be highly improbable for life-permitting features to be around, then it's simply a matter of having a large enough sample size. I mean, it's highly improbable that I myself exist, not just my parents meeting each other, or them being born, but for the exact sperm which fertilized the egg and led to me.

Simply put, if we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting, that doesn't mean much beyond the fact that we find ourselves in a universe which is life-permitting. If it wasn't life-permitting, we wouldn't be here, etc.

But that is essentially, circular reasoning.   It's that, "Why are we here? Because we're here."...and it doesn't really hold any water.

It's exactly the same as being on a archaeological expedition...finding a very detailed carved statue...and saying, "This is no proof that there were any people here...I can find random rock formations that are very similar...It's only because it's so detailed that you're automatically led to the conclusion that intelligent life made it...we only think it's weird because *we* are the ones that actually found it! Can you *PROVE* that there was ever a person who made this statue?  The very fact that it's here, and that we found it, proves that it IS *IN FACT* HERE and nothing more." 

To me, that's exactly what the "Why are we here? Because we're here." argument sounds like.   
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Offline bosk1

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #307 on: May 17, 2012, 10:23:49 PM »
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.

Consider; he who denies that our universe is finely tuned to allow for the formation of life is himself an observer in a universe whose constants and forces are finely tuned to allow for the formation of life. In other words, denying that our universe is finely tuned for the formation of life is self-defeating. That is why I thought the use of "disingenuous" and "demonstrably so" were warranted.

Duly considered.  But not everyone approaches the subject from paradigms that allow them to easily perceive that the universe is, as you put it, finely tuned to allow for the formation of life.  Consequently, their belief to the contrary may not be based whatsoever on any sort of improper motive that would make the label "disingenuous" applicable.

Consider; unfairly slapping labels on anyone who disagrees with you and implying an imroper motive is rude and insulting and more likley to offend than to persuade.  And as I and others have tried to get throug to, that isn't the way we do things here.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #308 on: May 17, 2012, 10:29:07 PM »
There is no denying that our universe is finely-tuned to be life-permitting. Any person that attempts to deny that our universe is indeed fine-tuned to permit the formation of life is being incredibly intellectually disingenuous and demonstrably so.

Not necessarily.  Disingenous implies an intentional improper motive.  Not everyone who thinks differently than you do has an improper motive.

Consider; he who denies that our universe is finely tuned to allow for the formation of life is himself an observer in a universe whose constants and forces are finely tuned to allow for the formation of life. In other words, denying that our universe is finely tuned for the formation of life is self-defeating. That is why I thought the use of "disingenuous" and "demonstrably so" were warranted.

Incorrect.  Circular logic.  Your base all your positions (this and others like Marriage) on your premise being correct and fact. 

Consider;
he who denies that we in a solar system orbiting a star, is himself an observer in a solar system orbiting a star.  In other words, denying we are in a solar system orbiting a star is self-defeating.
Ok.

Consider;
he who denies that we are in a universe ruled by the Flying Spagetti Monster, is himself an observer in a universe ruled by the Flying Spagetti Monster.  In other words, denying we are in a universe ruled by the Flying Spagetti Monster is self-defeating.
Not Logical.

The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.
The second is your opinion.
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #309 on: May 17, 2012, 10:30:43 PM »
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #310 on: May 17, 2012, 10:31:30 PM »
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

It is not a verifiable fact that our universe is "finely tuned".
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #311 on: May 17, 2012, 10:34:01 PM »
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

 :lol  You didn't seriously think that is what we were disagreeing with, did you?   :lol
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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #312 on: May 17, 2012, 10:37:43 PM »
Eh, he's not making much sense at all. What the hell is "pure actuality," "pure being"? What is the "purest form" of reality, especially when reality doesn't yet exist? It's meaningless nonsense.

I was using Platonic, Aristotelian and (terms from) Aquinas (Aquinic?) terms and philosophical concepts. I thought you would be able to recognize them. Sorry?


Quote
The video I pointed to already showed how faulty this logic is. If there are more than one possibilities, i.e. more than one universe, than even though it might be highly improbable for life-permitting features to be around, then it's simply a matter of having a large enough sample size. I mean, it's highly improbable that I myself exist, not just my parents meeting each other, or them being born, but for the exact sperm which fertilized the egg and led to me.

Again, there is no evidence that other universes exist other than our own. But I don't see how the assertion of a genuinely infinite number universes helps at all, considering that the variables within those possible universes would also be infinite. In that case, they have an infinite chance that no repetition of the ideal conditions for life will ever take place. It seems to me that to be able to explain, perhaps, the intricate fine-tuning or universe what would be needed is a limited number of variations of the constants, plus a very large number of repetitions of the variables, rather like rolling a six-sided die many times increases the chance that a four will be rolled at some point.  On the other hand, if the die itself had infinite sides, then having an infinite number of rolls, it seems to me, would not increase the chance of rolling any fours; in fact, there would be an infinite number of chances it would never happen. If the actual number of possibilities is itself infinite, then how does having an infinite number of instances help to increase the chances of "hitting the right numbers" to produce an ordered, life-sustaining universe?  Am I missing something, or are multiverse-believers taking for granted a limited number of cosmological constants?  In that case, doesn't the question "what causes the particular range of limited cosmological constants?" come up?
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Offline Omega

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #313 on: May 17, 2012, 10:41:14 PM »
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

It is not a verifiable fact that our universe is "finely tuned".

Of course it is. Not only have I dedicated an entire large post to support that assertion, but if our universe wasn't fine-tuned, then the universe would not have been life-permitting and therefore no life would have been able to have formed. Peeps, it's not like this is analytic modular logic here; this is simple elementary reasoning.
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Offline eric42434224

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Re: Are We Truly In The End Times?
« Reply #314 on: May 17, 2012, 10:52:29 PM »
The difference between the two is that the first premise is an observable and verifyable fact.

Is it not a verifiable fact that our universe is life-permitting?

It is not a verifiable fact that our universe is "finely tuned".

Of course it is. Not only have I dedicated an entire large post to support that assertion, but if our universe wasn't fine-tuned, then the universe would not have been life-permitting and therefore no life would have been able to have formed. Peeps, it's not like this is analytic modular logic here; this is simple elementary reasoning.

Opinion.  An opinion that you can certainly defend, and many will agree with, but opinion nonetheless.
Listen to Bosk and learn to differentiate the two.  If you think something makes sense and believe it, does not necessarily make it a fact.
If you need to continue asserting your postition or premise as fact, you should stop writing posts the length of War and Peace showing your reasoning, and simply post a source that verifies it as fact.  Not someone elses opinion, but as verifiable fact.

Anyway, Im out.  It is a verifiable fact that I am tired and need to go to sleep.
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