The Boy Scouts of America

[PlaysLikeMyung]

I watched the B.S.A episode of Penn and Teller's Bullshit! yesterday, and a few things struck me as odd (hence why I'm posting it in P/R)

They receive government money, thus making them a public organization

Yet they're given the right to discriminate like a private organization.

The issue, of course, being the exclusion of homosexuals and atheists, as part of their official policy (although my troop personally would not adopt this; they'd just look the other way).

So how can the organization be allowed to do this if they're receiving government money?

Also of note: I didn't know this, but apparently this policy was only adopted after the Mormon church stepped in

[j]

I didn't know the Boy Scouts received public funding.  I thought each "chapter" or whatever was locally sponsored?

-J

EDIT: After Googling, it appears that their use of "governmental resources including public lands" for activities has raised controversy.

[El Barto]

I can't see where they receive government money.  They appear to be privately funded.

I've always defended their right to be bigoted assholes on the assumption they were a private organization.  If they actually do get government scratch, that'd change my opinion rather quickly.  

[Durg]

Then why do we have to sell so much of that dang popcorn!  My son's troop doesn't get any money from the Government.  Perhaps the core national and regional offices get grants or some form of government assistance.  However, if it came down to giving up the Government funding vs compromising the core values.  I would hope they would give up the funding. 

You know the government funds other organizations that go against my core values.  Maybe the government should stop funding ALL organizations so as not to offend anyone.  Maybe that would help to reduce the deficit.

I tell you one more thing.  There's not one single bigot in that troop.  They're good kids and the leaders are awesome.  Those boys are growing up to be fine men.  Diversity and fairness is taught right along with the encouragement of praying to "your" God.  Faith is a core value in Scouting and parents who pay the dues every year are quite aware of it and often see that as another way for their kids to learn to be better people. 

My son, 11, recently, had to learn a hard lesson about disabilities because of some teasing he was doing and using the word "retard", fully knowing that one of his troop members had a severely mentally retarded brother.  The leaders dealt with him harshly and he learned a very hard lesson.  In fact he was almost suspended from the Scouts.  The understanding of diversity and the accepting of other cultures and races are most certainly taught and emphasized.

It's a great organization that I'm happy my son is a part of.  If the government tries to impose a different set of core values onto the program because of funding, then I say the government can keep its money.

[zerogravityfat]

i lol'd at the no homosexuals part.

[jsem]

Lol. Penn & Teller....

[emindead]

It's a shame that they are publicly funded.

Here it doesn't work like that. We paid for everything regarding camps, trips et al.

This year the World Scout Jamboree is going to be in Sweden (so lucky that some friends are going there). I hope they don't receive a penny from the government. (They also were huge assholes four years ago in England. They woke everyone with a fucking trumpet at five in the morning. They were almost expelled )

[El Barto]

They don't get money directly from the government.  What happens is that individual scout units are chartered by various organizations, some of which are government entities; police departments, fire departments, military groups, etc. 

Kind of a bogus workaround, frankly.  Your local police department can't discriminate against homosexuals, but it can finance a group that does.  Seems to me like the fair solution would be for public institutions to be barred from chartering BSA outfits. 

https://www.thehumanist.org/humanist/articles/bsa.html

[sirbradford117]

The BSA is a fine organization in my opinion... I myself am proud to be an Eagle Scout.  The homosexual issue is, just like many controversies in our day and age, the actions of a few ruining it for all.

[Implode]

The BSA is a fine organization in my opinion... I myself am proud to be an Eagle Scout.  The homosexual issue is, just like many controversies in our day and age, the actions of a few ruining it for all.

I agree with this. None of the scouts I know are prejudice at all.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

The BSA is a fine organization in my opinion... I myself am proud to be an Eagle Scout.  The homosexual issue is, just like many controversies in our day and age, the actions of a few ruining it for all.

Yeah, I'm proud to be an Eagle as well. But I never really knew the details of the policy until yesterday.

But the issue is whether they should have the right to discriminate if they are receiving some sort of government cash. I think one of the arguments that P&T made is that a lot of Troops are based out of schools, which are funded by the taxpayers. Granted, not all of them are (mine was in a Presbyterian church), but because of this I don't feel that they should have the right to discriminate

[Ultimetalhead]

[Chino]

[PlaysLikeMyung]

lol let's try to be srs here

[hefdaddy42]

I have no issue with the Boy Scouts.

[Chino]

I quit cub scouts after 5 weeks.

[Ultimetalhead]

I went to one meeting and was like, "Fuck this."

[Chino]

I stayed in it just to have something to do with my friends. I hated it from day one, but was only able to pretend for so long. We had these cub cards or something. Every time you fucked up, the den leader would cut off a corner. I lost all mine in one weekend trip, all for dumb shit. That's when I decided to leave.

[Orbert]

Chino, it sounds like your unit was run by idiots.  Every scout unit is individually run, and the adult leaders have a lot of control over how things are run.  They're free to implement policies as they see fit, and improvise the rest.  The idea is that how a unit is run in the middle of huge city is different from how you'd run one out in the sticks, and so on, so that can't cover every single thing.  Unfortunately, it still comes down to who's running the show.

The Boy Scouts of America have a set of rules and guidelines that have been in place for like 100 years, so yeah, some of it could use some updating.  But at its core is the goal of imparting strong moral values, leadership skills, and a good work ethic.  I was a scout leader for years, even though my son quit after a year.  I think I missed the opportunity to teach kids some good, something I've missed since I left teaching secondary education.

And as others have said, it may still be on the books, but I've never encountered any issues with homosexuals in the organization.  You look the other way.

[Fiery Winds]

As an Eagle Scout, I can say that cub scouts is almost a joke.  It's run by the parents and you don't really get to do the really fun stuff. 

That said, like Orbert pointed out, each unit is individually run so you'll have your troops/packs that are run solely by the adults and you hardly do anything.  Then you have one like mine where we have an weekend camping trip every month, with larger outings at least once a year.  For example, my favorite trip was flying to the boundary waters in Minnesota and canoeing 50 miles in a week.  If something happened, you were SOL because it was a no fly zone. 

[PlaysLikeMyung]

As an Eagle Scout, I can say that cub scouts is almost a joke.  It's run by the parents and you don't really get to do the really fun stuff. 

That said, like Orbert pointed out, each unit is individually run so you'll have your troops/packs that are run solely by the adults and you hardly do anything.  Then you have one like mine where we have an weekend camping trip every month, with larger outings at least once a year.  For example, my favorite trip was flying to the boundary waters in Minnesota and canoeing 50 miles in a week.  If something happened, you were SOL because it was a no fly zone. 

Our troop was Boy run. Meaning that the vast majority of the decisions made in the troop were done by boy leadership (SPL, etc). We did the high adventure once a year as well, along with the monthly trips. We regularly went to Sea Base, Philmont, and a bunch of Jamboree's and whatnot. It was awesome

[Durg]

I was a Cub Scout leader for 3 years.  I never had to cut the corner of their pocket knife card of any my boys for "misbehaving" with a pocket knife.  Maybe it's because I spent so much time making sure they knew the rules.  I had to remind them of the rules several times but they respected me and there was never a problem.  I'm proud to say that all of them stayed in Scouting and moved on into Boy Scouts and they clearly love it.  I'm sure that at least 2 of my pack will make it to eagle scout.  I'm hoping my son will too but he's not very self motivated and I will not push him.  He's got to want it himself.

In just a few weeks they will be working at a home for the mentally disabled as community service.  But if some of you want to continue to call them bigots you can.  You're certainly free to be ignorant.

[antigoon]

I don't think anybody is calling your group bigoted.

[Durg]

I don't think anybody is calling your group bigoted.

El Barto's post sure felt pretty insulting to me even though it wasn't directed at my son's troop. 

I can't see where they receive government money.  They appear to be privately funded.

I've always defended their right to be bigoted assholes on the assumption they were a private organization.  If they actually do get government scratch, that'd change my opinion rather quickly. 

It's still a very harsh, uneducated, point of view that I'm sure was probably based solely on the fact that there have been issues with homosexuals wanting to be accepted in as leaders and such in the Boy Scouts.

Perhaps I'm over-reacting.  I apologize.  I just happen to disagree with his take on them. 

[El Barto]

Lets not forget the atheists.

I was pointing the finger at the organization as a whole, and not the individual members,  many of whom no doubt disapprove of the bigotry.  And again, I have no problem with their stance assuming they don't take public money.

[TempusVox]

As others have pointed out, this isn't an "anti-homosexual" organization. It is actually an excellent organization that teaches young men some very important aspects of being a good person overall. Perhaps they don't allow homosexuals to be scout leaders because quite frankly, if they openly accepted homosexual scout leaders, then some parents would bitch and moan, and there would be constant controversy surrounding that. Either way, they can't win that debate. Now, if they came out and publically denounced homosexuality and taught scouts in lessons that being gay was wrong, or had a "Beat Up a Fag" merit badge, then they should all be drawn and quartered.

[Orbert]

Exactly.

It's wonderful to be politically correct and allow homosexuals to be scout leaders.  And I'm sure that all the parents of adolescent boys would have no problem with their sons being off on a weekend camping trip under the careful supervision of gay men.  It would never occur to them that anything unsavory would occur.  None would ever question why gay men would choose to devote their weekends to spending time with adolescent boys.  The BSA are wrong, and should allow this.  Obviously there would never be any problems, so they're a bunch of bigots.

[bosk1]

This is not directed at Orbert, since his use of the word was obviously sarcastic.  But I feel the need to remind others who are throwing the word "bigot" around that personal attacks are against the forum rules.  That garbage needs to stop right now. 

[ehra]

Maybe I'm missing something, but who's personally attacking anyone?

[bosk1]

Yes, you are missing something.  Labeling an entire group that some members here might belong to as "bigots" is, per se, a personal attack. 

[El Barto]

So we should just cater to the irrational whims of ignorant parents?

Gay /= pedophile.  It really doesn't get much simpler than that.  The fact is,  most guys who molest boys identify as straight.  As the feminists will tell you, rape isn't about sexual attraction.  Same thing applies in prison.  Those guys aren't raping each other because they're horny.  It's all about dominance.  The motivation in child sexual abuse is different, but still independent of gender preference.  The simple truth is that a straight man is more likely to bugger little Billy than a gay man. 

Also, if you want to go to absurd lengths to prevent this sort of thing, I'd say that the Catholic Church is a much more dangerous element than homosexual scout leaders.  The Roman Catholic Church ranks third on the list of charter organizations.  I'm sure they'd like you to believe that all of that molestation was a gay thing, as well.  Part of the reason the Catholics are having the problem that they are is because of the very mentality that the BSA continues to promote:  molestation is a component of the homosexual lifestyle.  You can always count on the Church to be the last ones to emerge from the dark ages, but on this issue they have a lot of company.  By continuing their archaic notions that molestation occurs in their respective organizations because of infiltration by gays,  they will continue to foster an environment where the real dangers go overlooked. 

Lastly, I really didn't want to reply to Orbert's sarcasm, but there's something there that really needs to be addressed. 

...I'm sure that all the parents of adolescent boys would have no problem with their sons being off on a weekend camping trip under the careful supervision of gay men.  It would never occur to them that anything unsavory would occur.  None would ever question why gay men would choose to devote their weekends to spending time with adolescent boys.

Frankly, I'd be curious why any adult male would choose to spend there weekends with adolescent boys.  I suspect the rationale is the same regardless of their respective sexualities.  I'd certainly expect any parent to exercise some diligence in checking into the background of people who choose this lifestyle.  To just assume that the BSA has it under control because they exclude gays is just asking for trouble. 

And just to reiterate, I still defend their right to exclude whoever the hell they want excluded, so long as they keep their organization away from public money.  Personally, I'd find their stance much more reasonable if they'd just come out and say "we find homosexuals to be creepy as fuck and we don't want to associate with them," rather than the bullshit fear-mongering they throw around as justification.

[El Barto]

Yes, you are missing something.  Labeling an entire group that some members here might belong to as "bigots" is, per se, a personal attack. 

Obviously that has to be directed at me.  I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to address the issue I have.  I was very careful to direct my remark to the organization as a whole, and not the individual members,  many of whom no doubt disapprove of the bigotry.  I haven't called anybody here a bigot.  I've not suggested that one person in this forum is a bigot, regardless of their affiliation with the group.

I'll point out that you've attacked plenty of organizations that people here might belong to.  I know there are some Catholics here.  Probably a teamster or two.  I can name one or two people who probably contribute to the ACLU.  What's the difference between me calling the BSA bigoted and you calling the ACLU a terrorist organization?  If we're to stop criticizing any organizations that a DTFer might belong to for fear of upsetting him, then this place is fixing to turn pretty milktoast. 

[Durg]

Yes, you are missing something.  Labeling an entire group that some members here might belong to as "bigots" is, per se, a personal attack. 

Obviously that has to be directed at me.  I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to address the issue I have.  I was very careful to direct my remark to the organization as a whole, and not the individual members,  many of whom no doubt disapprove of the bigotry.  I haven't called anybody here a bigot.  I've not suggested that one person in this forum is a bigot, regardless of their affiliation with the group.

I'll point out that you've attacked plenty of organizations that people here might belong to.  I know there are some Catholics here.  Probably a teamster or two.  I can name one or two people who probably contribute to the ACLU.  What's the difference between me calling the BSA bigoted assholes and you calling the ACLU a terrorist organization?  If we're to stop criticizing any organizations that a DTFer might belong to for fear of upsetting him, then this place is fixing to turn pretty milktoast. 

Fixed.  Just reminding you of exactly what you said.

[ehra]

Yes, you are missing something.  Labeling an entire group that some members here might belong to as "bigots" is, per se, a personal attack.  

I still don't get it. Groups that members of the forum might belong to are attacked all the time and it's been never been called a personal attack because the attacks aren't personal. The Catholic Church in particular takes a lot of flack on P/R despite there being a few members on this forum.

Using Tick's recent thread as an example, I didn't see anything wrong with what he said because it was directed at a behavior he saw and not anyone specific. But, going by this, what he said would be a personal attack to anyone who uses cell phones during a concert?

[El Barto]

Yes, you are missing something.  Labeling an entire group that some members here might belong to as "bigots" is, per se, a personal attack. 

Obviously that has to be directed at me.  I'm not sure how else I'm supposed to address the issue I have.  I was very careful to direct my remark to the organization as a whole, and not the individual members,  many of whom no doubt disapprove of the bigotry.  I haven't called anybody here a bigot.  I've not suggested that one person in this forum is a bigot, regardless of their affiliation with the group.

I'll point out that you've attacked plenty of organizations that people here might belong to.  I know there are some Catholics here.  Probably a teamster or two.  I can name one or two people who probably contribute to the ACLU.  What's the difference between me calling the BSA bigoted assholes and you calling the ACLU a terrorist organization?  If we're to stop criticizing any organizations that a DTFer might belong to for fear of upsetting him, then this place is fixing to turn pretty milktoast. 

Fixed.  Just reminding you of exactly what you said.

I don't think that changes my point.  I'm still insulting an organization, and not it's individual members.