German lawyers initiated charges against Pope

[El JoNNo]

Charges initiated against Pope for crimes against humanity

PATSY McGARRY, Religious Affairs Correspondent

TWO GERMAN lawyers have initiated charges against Pope Benedict XVI at the International Criminal Court, alleging crimes against humanity.

Christian Sailer and Gert-Joachim Hetzel, based at Marktheidenfeld in the Pope’s home state of Bavaria, last week submitted a 16,500-word document to the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court at the Hague, Dr Luis Moreno Ocampo.

Their charges concern “three worldwide crimes which until now have not been denounced . . . (as) the traditional reverence toward ‘ecclesiastical authority’ has clouded the sense of right and wrong”.

They claim the Pope “is responsible for the preservation and leadership of a worldwide totalitarian regime of coercion which subjugates its members with terrifying and health-endangering threats”.

They allege he is also responsible for “the adherence to a fatal forbiddance of the use of condoms, even when the danger of HIV-Aids infection exists” and for “the establishment and maintenance of a worldwide system of cover-up of the sexual crimes committed by Catholic priests and their preferential treatment, which aids and abets ever new crimes”.

They claim the Catholic Church “acquires its members through a compulsory act, namely, through the baptism of infants that do not yet have a will of their own”. This act was “irrevocable” and is buttressed by threats of excommunication and the fires of hell.

It was “a grave impairment of the personal freedom of development and of a person’s emotional and mental integrity”. The Pope was “responsible for its preservation and enforcement and, as Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of his Church, he was jointly responsible” with Pope John Paul II.

Catholics “threatened by HIV-AIDS . . . are faced with a terrible alternative: If they protect themselves with condoms during sexual intercourse, they become grave sinners; if they do not protect themselves out of fear of the punishment of sin threatened by the church, they become candidates for death.”

There was also “strong suspicion that Dr Joseph Ratzinger, as prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith of his church and as Pope, has up to the present day systematically covered up the sexual abuse of children and youths and protected the perpetrators, thereby aiding and abetting further sexual violence toward young people”.

I'll hope for the best but at least the Catholic church's name will be dragged through more mud. Much like they have been dragged kicking and screaming into the 21st century.

[rumborak]

I don't see how this would go anywhere. The CC's stances are pretty reprehensible in many cases, but it's not criminal.

rumborak

[El JoNNo]

I don't think it is entirely on their stances, it might be on their cover ups as well. Either way it just makes it more public and show's people that it is alright to stand up to their shit. The more this type of thing happens the better.

[Perpetual Change]

Either way it just makes it more public and show's people that it is alright to stand up to their shit.

People don't know that?

[Super Dude]

Actually, and I've discussed this with my family extensively, I think that rather than charging the Pope with crimes against humanity, that they should bring the institution itself (the Vatican and its clergy) to court.  After all, we're looking at around a millennium and a half of corruption, deception, and general neglect and even exploitation of the common good.

[El JoNNo]

Either way it just makes it more public and show's people that it is alright to stand up to their shit.

People don't know that?

No most do not, especially those brainwashed by them.

Actually, and I've discussed this with my family extensively, I think that rather than charging the Pope with crimes against humanity, that they should bring the institution itself (the Vatican and its clergy) to court.  After all, we're looking at around a millennium and a half of corruption, deception, and general neglect and even exploitation of the common good.

Agreed, but this is a step.

[Perpetual Change]

Actually, and I've discussed this with my family extensively, I think that rather than charging the Pope with crimes against humanity, that they should bring the institution itself (the Vatican and its clergy) to court.  After all, we're looking at around a millennium and a half of corruption, deception, and general neglect and even exploitation of the common good.

I find this a bit draconian, especially coming from someone who gets highly offended the minute someone brings up the far less controversial question of, say, Israel's existence. But meh, not even gonna bother with this...

[Super Dude]

Whatever your opinion of Israel's actions in the past 60 years, that doesn't compare to far worse atrocities spread across a significantly greater area of the populated world over several centuries.

[sonatafanica]

This would probably make for an awesome film.

Like, where the climax of the film is some German official holding pointing a gun down at the pope's head in a rainy cobblestone alleyway, and the official says, "Say hello to God for me."

To which the pope replies, "God was never a part of it."


BANG


crane shot lifts above them and over the alleyway. Roll credits.

[j]

The Catholic Church has an ugly history, surprise!  Same old shit, different day and different group of hypocrites up in arms.  This lawsuit is a joke.

This would probably make for an awesome film.

Like, where the climax of the film is some German official holding pointing a gun down at the pope's head in a rainy cobblestone alleyway, and the official says, "Say hello to God for me."

To which the pope replies, "God was never a part of it."


BANG


crane shot lifts above them and over the alleyway. Roll credits.

Please someone make this movie.

-J

[rumborak]

Besides, you can't reasonably sue for anything more than 100 years ago. Otherwise might as well sue Mongolia for Genghis Khan.

rumborak

[Chino]

I'd rather see someone just blow up the vatican.

[Super Dude]

Besides, you can't reasonably sue for anything more than 100 years ago. Otherwise might as well sue Mongolia for Genghis Khan.

rumborak

True, but I mean it's not like we're talking about an institution that no longer exists, or didn't exist then.

[rumborak]

Yeah, but can you sue somebody for something that wasn't illegal at the time they did it? What we may think today of the things back then is irrelevant; they were The Church, and thus had no rules to abide to.

rumborak

[Super Dude]

Also true.  I'm not arguing that a case can be made, just that if I had my way, I'd see it was made against the Church as a collective rather than one singular Pope.

[Perpetual Change]

Whatever your opinion of Israel's actions in the past 60 years, that doesn't compare to far worse atrocities spread across a significantly greater area of the populated world over several centuries.

Or how about we go as simply as Israel's existence? Then again, there's actually people around to file those grievances...

Anyway, like I said, I'm not taking sides here: I just find it a bit odd someone who blindly supports something as questionable and ill-founded as you do would like to take such desperate shots at someone else's institution of faith.

[emindead]

Actually, and I've discussed this with my family extensively, I think that rather than charging the Pope with crimes against humanity, that they should bring the institution itself (the Vatican and its clergy) to court.  After all, we're looking at around a millennium and a half of corruption, deception, and general neglect and even exploitation of the common good.

I find this a bit draconian, especially coming from someone who gets highly offended the minute someone brings up the far less controversial question of, say, Israel's existence. But meh, not even gonna bother with this...

Double-standards.

[Adami]

Actually, and I've discussed this with my family extensively, I think that rather than charging the Pope with crimes against humanity, that they should bring the institution itself (the Vatican and its clergy) to court.  After all, we're looking at around a millennium and a half of corruption, deception, and general neglect and even exploitation of the common good.

I find this a bit draconian, especially coming from someone who gets highly offended the minute someone brings up the far less controversial question of, say, Israel's existence. But meh, not even gonna bother with this...

This has nothing to do with Israel, nothing in the least. Bringing it up only brings this wayyy off topic, and we already have an Israel thread.

[7thHanyou]

There's nothing particularly wrong with what they're "charging" the Catholic church for.  I'm no Catholic myself, but their stance on condoms is what it is.  If you don't like it, don't listen to them or leave the church.  Simple.

This whole "crimes against humanity" thing is incredibly relativistic anyway.  Any organization should be able to advocate any view.

I have serious problems with some of what the church is responsible for, but this is ridiculous.

[Super Dude]

Whatever your opinion of Israel's actions in the past 60 years, that doesn't compare to far worse atrocities spread across a significantly greater area of the populated world over several centuries.

Or how about we go as simply as Israel's existence? Then again, there's actually people around to file those grievances...

Anyway, like I said, I'm not taking sides here: I just find it a bit odd someone who blindly supports something as questionable and ill-founded as you do would like to take such desperate shots at someone else's institution of faith.

Again, whatever your opinion on Israel, there is no comparison where scale and magnitude are involved.  Negative and detrimental actions undertaken by the Catholic Church have harmed more people over a greater area over a much greater stretch of human history, and with much greater severity.

[emindead]

Either way it just makes it more public and show's people that it is alright to stand up to their shit.

People don't know that?

No most do not, especially those brainwashed by them.

I'm so glad you're not insane.

[j]

Again, whatever your opinion on Israel, there is no comparison

Should have ended your post there.

Negative and detrimental actions undertaken by the Catholic Church have harmed more people over a greater area over a much greater stretch of human history, and with much greater severity.

This is irrelevant and another example of the attitude of deflection (i.e. "officer, that guy up there was speeding more than I was!") that seems to be the very shaky ethical foundation for much of this forum.  Not only that, it's pretty ignorant to make a statement like this without providing anything to substantiate it.

Of course it's probably true, and it's certainly become accepted as "common knowledge" outside of historical scholarly circles, but the CC's atrocities are blown grossly out of proportion by most.  The old unholy trinity of the Crusades, Spanish Inquisition, and Galileo incident are definitely rife with reprehensible acts, but not nearly to the degree opponents of the church would like to believe.

There's been a lot of corruption and horrible things done throughout history, but we're talking about an institution that has been around in more or less its current form for 2000 years.  I'm no fan of the CC, but it's comical the extent people will go to to shit on an institution they know little to nothing about.  People love to demonize it for all kinds of reasons, telling tall tales about children's crusades and millions of people being tortured and brutally murdered on a whim, while clearly content to ignore the vast contributions to society and philanthropy it has made.

-J

[Super Dude]

I mean my own criticism of the Church comes from its dealings with my own people, so take that as you will...

[Perpetual Change]

Again, whatever your opinion on Israel, there is no comparison where scale and magnitude are involved.  Negative and detrimental actions undertaken by the Catholic Church have harmed more people over a greater area over a much greater stretch of human history, and with much greater severity.

I simply find it astounding how willing you seem to be to allow someone elses' faith to be drug through the mud. Imperfect as it is, the Catholic Church in the current age is nowhere near as coercive nor as big a source of conflict and controversy as the current 'occupation' of Israel is.

That you want to dig up sins from centuries gone by is equally as astounding. That's pure hyperbole, and nothing more.

[Adami]

It still is not related. You can't disqualify what someone supports by pointing that they support something else that you personally consider to be similar. It's just not to do with anything. If he supports this, focus on that, not his support for Israel which has nothing to do with his decision to support this.

[Perpetual Change]

You can't disqualify what someone supports by pointing that they support something else that you personally consider to be similar.

Yes you can, because it makes for pretty damn good discussion. I find it fascinating how willing you seem to act like the religious tension that fuels statements like the one I commented on doesn't exist, even when Superdude has just said that part of what he's formulated his ideas on his the Church's dealings with his own people (though they support the Jewish state these days, as far as I remember).

And the only reason I'm saying so is because I usually expect a lot more than hyperbole about "the atrocities of the centuries ago" from someone that otherwise seems to form sound opinions that are actually relevant to how to fix the problems of today.

[Adami]

Fair enough, do what you will.

But the whole "You can't like this............because there's something completely unrelated that you like, and I can't see how those two can coexist" thing is just bring it off topic. It will cause the thread to turn into another pro/anti israel thread, I just don't want this to be so derailed, as it already is.

[Perpetual Change]

It is related:

I mean my own criticism of the Church comes from its dealings with my own people, so take that as you will...

I'm just trying to prod Super Dude into explaining more. Since he's generally a much more thoughtful poster than, say, me, I'd like to hear more before I dismiss what he's saying as just being uncalled-for resentment and the like.

[Adami]

And that's completely lovely. And you could have asked exactly what you just did, with out implying that he was somehow wrong or hypocritical because he also supports Israel.

[ehra]

Taking legal action against the pope because he said no condoms and people listen to him is fucking retarded. Cut the BS and stick to actual issues like the child abuse coverups.

[Perpetual Change]

Draconian is the word I used. I still think its true. I think I know how to hold a discussion.

But thanks, Jr. Mod Adami  

Taking legal action against the pope because he said no condoms and people listen to him is fucking retarded. Cut the BS and stick to actual issues like the child abuse coverups.

...And this. I can understand this. It's the hyperbole about '1500 years of crimes against humanity' and the need to charge the organization as a whole that I don't understand.

[Adami]

Draconian is the word I used. I still think its true. I think I know how to hold a discussion.

But thanks, Jr. Mod Adami  

Hehehe, it's ok, I'm sure it will all be fine.

[Super Dude]

It is related:

I mean my own criticism of the Church comes from its dealings with my own people, so take that as you will...

I'm just trying to prod Super Dude into explaining more. Since he's generally a much more thoughtful poster than, say, me, I'd like to hear more before I dismiss what he's saying as just being uncalled-for resentment and the like.

If you want to have a more elaborate explanation of the atrocities against the Jews and other peoples, re-examine those periods j mentioned, the Crusades and the Inquisition in particular.  As for the harm placed upon the Church's own people, the Catholic European population, the Crusades again offer an example (diverting the populace's attention away from the corruption of European monarchies and the Church by inciting hatred against Islam), the Galileo incident and other such conflicts between science and faith, the exorbitant amounts of money made by clergy off their followers by methods such as indulgences, pilgrimages and the like...the list goes on, and if I had my book on medieval England with me (it's at home on the other side of the country ) I may might have been able to elaborate some other deeds of the Church I found most distasteful.

Also Pope Benedict attempted a year or two ago to reinstate a Catholic prayer from the period of the Crusades, which was a prayer to save the Jews from Hell.  I know it sounds nice but it's really not.

And I know this isn't the sound basis for an argument either, but what good has the Church done for humanity?  Saying that it has given structure or power to a faith or saying that it's given hope or some other intangible satisfaction to its followers is not a satisfactory answer; what quantifiable/qualitative benefit has been accrued by humanity on the Church's behalf?

[j]

If you want to have a more elaborate explanation of the atrocities against the Jews and other peoples, re-examine those periods j mentioned, the Crusades and the Inquisition in particular.  As for the harm placed upon the Church's own people, the Catholic European population, the Crusades again offer an example (diverting the populace's attention away from the corruption of European monarchies and the Church by inciting hatred against Islam), the Galileo incident and other such conflicts between science and faith, the exorbitant amounts of money made by clergy off their followers by methods such as indulgences, pilgrimages and the like...the list goes on, and if I had my book on medieval England with me (it's at home on the other side of the country ) I may might have been able to elaborate some other deeds of the Church I found most distasteful.

Like I said, it's always those three: the Crusades, the Spanish Inquisition, and the Galileo incident.  All involved some bad, bad stuff, but if you do a little reading, you'll find that the atrocities tend to be hugely exaggerated.  That's no excuse of course, it's just that the reality doesn't support the weight of the accusations often levied against the Church.

Also Pope Benedict attempted a year or two ago to reinstate a Catholic prayer from the period of the Crusades, which was a prayer to save the Jews from Hell.  I know it sounds nice but it's really not.

What do you expect?  Christians are taught that Jesus is the only way to heaven.  Why would their PRAYING for non-Christians be something you take issue with.  Be glad that they want you in their heaven, and let 'em do what they want.

And I know this isn't the sound basis for an argument either, but what good has the Church done for humanity?  Saying that it has given structure or power to a faith or saying that it's given hope or some other intangible satisfaction to its followers is not a satisfactory answer; what quantifiable/qualitative benefit has been accrued by humanity on the Church's behalf?

   Are you being serious?  Other than the immeasurable amounts of monetary charity, perpetual volunteer work and service to the poor, and massive contributions to science, art, and philosophy?

-J

[Super Dude]

Have you ever been to the Vatican?  Particularly the museum?