Author Topic: Unions - the official discussion  (Read 5161 times)

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: Unions - the official discussion
« Reply #35 on: March 01, 2011, 08:27:17 AM »
If that's directed toward me, I'm not sure I've made myself clear.

I'm basically arguing that the government should provide basic public health, education, water and housing to those who need it.

After that, I think people can work as much as they want for whatever price they're willing to agree to. No one's life is at stake.

Offline rumborak

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Re: Unions - the official discussion
« Reply #36 on: March 01, 2011, 08:53:02 AM »
Whatever is the most palatable solution is fine with me, tbh. I just don't think a civilization can call itself civilized if it looks away when people are dying in its own neighborhood, just so it can say it is implementing an economic ideal.

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Offline TempusVox

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Re: Unions - the official discussion
« Reply #37 on: March 01, 2011, 09:04:06 AM »
...and unions level that playing field. They simply negotiate a reasonable sales price for the product they sell, human labor.

No, actually, they don't.  That's the problem.

It eventually becomes the union deciding what's best for the employees and the union, though, and that's bad for everybody (except the union, of course).

This.

If you want empirical evidence on how Unions fuck up your company, own one.

...Implying that Unions fuck up companies? I really don't understand. Being part of a Union is a helpful resource as far as I know. What the hell is so bad about them?

In a nutshell, they drive up the costs of business, which frequently drives businesses out of business.  They foster frivolous complaints.  And they lobby for laws that are unnecessary in today's society and are a further drain on business and the economy.  If you want to know what is so bad about them, just do a google search for "why are unions bad for business" or something along those lines and do some research.  Here's a decent summary of some high points (although it is just a guy spouting off, so there isn't any support for his points):  https://omegahrsolutions.com/2009/06/why-unions-are-bad-for-companies-employees-and-customers.html

All of this, and I'll add some to support this> When I was growing up, the largest employer in my small town was GM's Fisher Body auto plant. The union contract went from year to year, so every year they would renegotiate, and demand more and more money, even if their production rates remained static. As production rates began to fall (there was no incentive to do a good job, because of you didn't and were fired, the union got you your job back) GM for years and years kept telling the workers and the union that the production levels were too low, and the employees absentee rates were too high, and that they could not continue to sustain those levels and keep the plant open. Instead of trying to work out a solution, the union began raising dues on it's members year after year, which bolstered the workers support of more, more, more each year from the company. I knew of one man who worked there that was fired for absensce more than six times. He would simply be too drunk to go to work. The company would fire him, and he would get his job back EVERY TIME, because of the union grievance process. Finally GM had enough. They shut down the plant and everyone lost their jobs. 12,000 workers without a job. 12,000 families with nothing. That was in the early 80's, and the town never recovered, and the plant site still sits vacant.

Unions also prey on their members. Most dues paying members are typically under educated workers, who believe that the union works for them. They perpetuate a false sense of security against the evil corporation that employs the workers to begin with. When I was an attorney I negotiated literally dozens of union contracts on behalf of my clients. Yes, they were all the employer in this situation, but NO ONE, EVER went to the table in the hopes to screw over, or dupe anyone. We always spoke the truth, and negotiated fairly. We had too. Every employer does. If you dont the NLRB and others would be all over you. The union does not. Time after time after time, I have seen them posture, lie, and sell out their members. The entire process is nothing more than an attempt to get their members to believe they are working in their best interest, simply so that they can continue to receive dues. In an open shop it's even worse. An open shop is one where it is not mandatory to JOIN the union, but all of the workers are under the umbrella of the collective bargaining agreement. The unions in those places continuously try and stir the pot, try drive membership. It's really sad to see people exploited like that.

I understand the right to organize, I really do. And unions were necessary at one point in this country decades ago, but there are so many laws that protect workers today already, that unions are nothing more than fear mongering entities that exist solely to fill their own coffers.

Look into the SEIU. (service employees union) This union is one of the most corrupt and ruthless unions ever. They have been cited by the NLRB for ethics issues more than 2,000 times in the past ten years. Yet they still exist. They have very deep pockets. They are very strong in healthcare with lower level healthcare workers. Many nurse aides, and housekeeping folks are typically unskilled or under educated. This union preys on these people. They literally exploit these people, and do nothing for them really except take their money. Like I said...it's sad really.

My grandfather, an engineer by trade, worked for decades for GE. He was in the union, but hated it. He understood that the union, in the end, only cared about its leadership. He once told me when I was a little boy: "Tempus, remember that half of a loaf of bread is better than none. Sometimes if you ask for too much, you'll wind up with nothing at all." A very smart man, my grandfather.
« Last Edit: March 01, 2011, 09:19:03 AM by El TiempoLaVoz »
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: Unions - the official discussion
« Reply #38 on: March 01, 2011, 10:29:58 AM »
Jobs don't exist so people can earn a living. They exist because an employer wants some sort of work done.

This is an interesting issue. Does labor exist for the purpose of the laborer, or the market? My job exists solely because blue-haired old ladies like to spend their dead husbands’ pension checks on cruises. If people stop taking cruises, my job goes away. A bunch of construction and laborer unions here are pushing hard for us to begin work on a tunnel not everyone feels is necessary or financially viable, solely because they want the work, as if keeping them employed is of greater importance than the nature of the project/work at hand and their contributions to those projects.

So what do we do when the # of qualified workers is greater than the # of available jobs?


In an open shop it's even worse. An open shop is one where it is not mandatory to JOIN the union, but all of the workers are under the umbrella of the collective bargaining agreement. The unions in those places continuously try and stir the pot, try drive membership. It's really sad to see people exploited like that.

That is a tricky situation, when people benefit from CBA’s that they don’t contribute to. I agree that if you don’t want to join the union, you shouldn’t be required to, but why should you then share in everything the union has secured for its members (ignoring the validity to those benefits for the discussion)?
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Offline rumborak

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Re: Unions - the official discussion
« Reply #39 on: March 01, 2011, 10:37:47 AM »
It also seems the problem is not so much the fact that they're unions, but rather that they don't represent the people under them very well.
How do get union leaders elected in the US?
Also, isn't it rather ironic that right-wings want to deprive people of their right to combine their forces voluntarily?

rumborak
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