Is Cliff Burton overpraised as a bassist?

[WildRanger]

Cliff Burton is a huge name when it comes to bassists in rock and metal and is often regarded as one of the best players.

In your opinion, was he that great or not? Is he overpraised or not?
Discuss.

[Adami]

Yes. I never even heard him do 10 finger tapping or sweep picking.

Pretty pathetic. I also heard a rumor that he mostly stuck to 4/4. So lame.

[RoeDent]

They let you back in?

[Crow]

he's been dead for 30 years. i don't know what purpose this poll serves. are you going to hurt his feelings.

[MirrorMask]

he's been dead for 30 years. i don't know what purpose this poll serves. are you going to hurt his feelings.

To be fair, we just had a thread about Randy Rhoads.

[TAC]

I actually almost started this exact thread, based on a comment about Cliff in the Randy Rhoads thread.

Because of that, I basically spent most of last week watching old shows and interviews with Cliff.

I don't really have an opinion either way, I've determined. I really can't qualify his bass playing. It feels a bit sloppy, but I just can't drill down to if it's musical.

[The Walrus]

I think so but I mean like Randy Rhoads we've had decades of bass players since Cliff and he was really good and all but I do think he's placed on an overly tall pedestal

[Dave_Manchester]

He played exactly what was needed to help create some of the greatest metal songs ever written. So my vote is 'no'. Orion is probably my favourite instrumental song by any band and it's largely due to Cliff's work.

[YtseJam]

Cliff was a bass master. He had only begun his journey when his life went out. So to be fair for the time we had him, he was the most influential metal bassist ever! He is not overpraised as he deserves all of the praise he gets.

[jammindude]

DTF was the first, and still the only place I've ever been OL or IRL that was so critical of Cliff's bass playing.   

When Anesthesia first came out, it made kids pick up a bass the same way Eruption made kids pick up a guitar in 1978.   I still say Pulling Teeth is one of the coolest bass tracks in all of metal, and I can't listen to Whiplash without it.

[Grappler]

Nope.

[Stadler]

I actually almost started this exact thread, based on a comment about Cliff in the Randy Rhoads thread.

Because of that, I basically spent most of last week watching old shows and interviews with Cliff.

I don't really have an opinion either way, I've determined. I really can't qualify his bass playing. It feels a bit sloppy, but I just can't drill down to if it's musical.

This is where I am.  I hear so much about "Cliff this..." and "Cliff that..." and while I LOVE James Hetfield, I find I'm kind of ambivalent about Cliff.  What I've heard just doesn't make me go "WHOA!" like, say, Chris Squire does.   Not saying he sucks, or anything like that, but ...

[pg1067]

Obviously, this is the companion to my Randy Rhoads thread.

The situation with Burton is a bit different.  Cliff had only 3 albums of material on which he appeared (as opposed to Rhoads having 4 albums, only 2 of which most folks have heard).  Bass v. guitar is a big distinction, and Burton never stood out in the way that guys like Lee, Squire and Harris did.  Most of the time, Burton was duplicating the rhythm guitar part.  On the other hand, I don't think I've ever heard Burton praised in the same way that I've heard Rhoads played.

All that said, I'm voting no.

The bigger issue with Burton is that there's this segment of the fan base that insists that, had he lived, Metallica never would have turned into the disaster it became in the 90s.

[MirrorMask]

The bigger issue with Burton is that there's this segment of the fan base that insists that, had he lived, Metallica never would have turned into the disaster it became in the 90s.

Which is obviously daydreaming.... had Elvis died young, who would have imagined he would have become overweight?

The "He would have never sold out" thing would have been said of any other of the Metallica members had they died in Cliff's place. No way James would have sold out, he was the angry voice of the band. No way Lars would have sold out, he's the brain behind the band, do you think he would have done Load? pffh, give me a break. No way Kirk would have sold out, the guy's blistering solos would have never found their way on Load! and so on.

[max_security]

He wrote and played some very cool parts on those early albums , I voted NO. My favorite players at the time were Billy Sheehan and Steve Harris , but Mike Dean and Cliff were up there as well. I'm not sure how all of the writing credits are distributed on those early Metallica albums but I'll bet he helped arrange many of those songs.

[cramx3]

I'm going to say No because personally, I don't ever see anyone praising him for more than what he was.  A solid bassist in a really good band.  I think that maybe having Newstead after him made people like and want Cliff more, but I don't think that's because Cliff was anything better or not, he was just the original guy so of course people wish he were still there.  If he didn't die and just left Metallica, would he still be regarded as highly?  Maybe, maybe not.  I do think his death made people like him more, but not so high to make me feel he is currently over praised.

[The Walrus]

So in all honesty I don't get why people think Cliff is so godly. He was a good bassist, not bad, but Anesthesia for example is just... not special. It's noisy, harsh, it's unfun to listen to, way too long, meandering - and it's such a grating tone. All the local Metallica fans I knew growing up mythologized him and made him out to be this legendary bassist, one guy I know still worships him night and day. But nothing he's done is anywhere as cool or groovy or interesting as a lot of, say, Geddy Lee's bass parts. So what's up?

[DoctorAction]

Apart from pulling teeth (which i really like) and some occasional parts he never stuck out for me, tbh.

[Ruba]

Well. My opinion is that Cliff was underutilised by Metallica (although I wouldn't change a note of Master of Puppets). Some of the stuff he did... I've never heard anyone else doing. I'm only a wannabe bassist so I can't really comment on his influence, but if a generation of bassists were influenced by him to pick up the four-string, that's great.

I choose not to vote.

E: Man there's an awesome 1984 live version of The Call of Ktulu in Spotify that has more prominent bass than the studio version. Worth checking out if you ask me.

[max_security]

Without looking at the album track lists , top of my head … The Four Horsemen , Disposable Heros , Orion , For Whom Bell ( intro is bass actually ) , tunes which place him well above some 3 notes all night cat. But he was not so much into " virtuosity " as he was being " musical " so I've read , never researched it really hard myself for any track examples or anything. 

[max_security]

Just listened to Orion , man it's been a long time since I've sat still and listened to that. Yeah it's still viable. Grab up an old Rickenbacker 4001/3 and play along and tell me the guy is " overrated ".

[pg1067]

Burton's writing credits are as follows:

KEA - Anesthesia (sole writer)
RTL - co-writer on every song except Trapped and Escape
MOP - co-writer on title track, Orion and Damage

Note that order of the writing credits varies from song to song, and I assume there's some significance to that.  Burton is the first listed writer on Fight Fire, Bell, Fade, Creep, MOP and Orion.

Ulrich is often quoted as saying that Burton was the only member of the band who really understood music theory.  That translated far more to writing than it did to playing, although songs like Anesthesia, Ktulu and Orion are songs where he really shines as a player.

However, as I mentioned previously, his playing generally tracked the rhythm guitar - songs like Bell (other than the intro), Fade, Creep, Battery, MOP, Heroes, Damage and pretty much everything on KEA.

That the band released the Cliff Em All video really helped his reputation.  It was the first time I learned that the intro to Bell was done on bass (and a big reason why I bought a wah pedal for my bass).

[KevShmev]

So in all honesty I don't get why people think Cliff is so godly. He was a good bassist, not bad, but Anesthesia for example is just... not special. It's noisy, harsh, it's unfun to listen to, way too long, meandering - and it's such a grating tone. All the local Metallica fans I knew growing up mythologized him and made him out to be this legendary bassist, one guy I know still worships him night and day. But nothing he's done is anywhere as cool or groovy or interesting as a lot of, say, Geddy Lee's bass parts. So what's up?

Agreed.  I get a headache just thinking about how annoying that "song" is.  Burton did some really cool things, most notably in Orion, For Whom the Bell Tolls and The Thing That Should Not Be, but Anesthesia is not something I would ever use to demonstrate what a good player he was.

[Adami]

Keep in mind what Kill em All was though.

It wasn't a band trying to be very pleasant to listen to. It was meant to be young, aggressive, pissed off, and in your face. It accomplished that.

Anesthesia is all of those things. It's harsh, noisy, difficult, aggressive, in your face, etc. That's the album. Metallica became much more musical and melodic after that, but that album? It did exactly what it was meant to do.

Not something I ever listen to, but it's important to keep in mind the context of when it was written.

[Lupton]

Sorry to butt in. Wanted to add..

The thing with Anesthesia...I remember back in the days if you walked into Guitar Center and some kid was playing the bass, there was a high possibility you'd hear at least the 1st two sections of it. It was sort of like the thrash bassist's Stairway to Heaven. So regardless of what one may think of the "tune", it definitely made an meaningful impact on a generation of players.

[TAC]

Keep in mind what Kill em All was though.

It wasn't a band trying to be very pleasant to listen to. It was meant to be young, aggressive, pissed off, and in your face. It accomplished that.

Anesthesia is all of those things. It's harsh, noisy, difficult, aggressive, in your face, etc. That's the album. Metallica became much more musical and melodic after that, but that album? It did exactly what it was meant to do.

Not something I ever listen to, but it's important to keep in mind the context of when it was written.

Kill 'Em All is amazing, and will always be my Go To Metallica album.

[Ruba]

Kill 'Em All is amazing, and will always be my Go To Metallica album.

But it's basically Lightning to the Nations played slightly faster...

maybe I just don't get 'cause I was born too late

[TAC]

I vividly remember the first time I heard Hit the Lights. I was absolutely blown away.

[Ruba]

I vividly remember the first time I heard Hit the Lights. I was absolutely blown away.

Me too.

But I begun to love Until It Sleeps, King Nothing and The Outlaw Torn when I weren't comparing them to older Metallica. Load is still my second favourite Metallica album. 

[TAC]

Load, ultimately is a huge drop off for me, but I totally respect what they did. The album sounds fantastic.


The Outlaw Torn is one of the coolest things they've ever done. So Sabbath-y.

[KevShmev]

Whiplash and Seek & Destroy are the only songs from the debut I ever listen to, while Load has a handful or so of songs I still like a lot.  I get why Kill 'Em All is so important and loved by the fans who were there at the time, but thrash has never been my bag, so that is why I mostly gloss over it.

[TAC]

Whiplash and Seek & Destroy are the only songs from the debut I ever listen to, while Load has a handful or so of songs I still like a lot.  I get why Kill 'Em All is so important and loved by the fans who were there at the time, but thrash has never been my bag, so that is why I mostly gloss over it.

So you like wussy Metallica. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[KevShmev]

Whiplash and Seek & Destroy are the only songs from the debut I ever listen to, while Load has a handful or so of songs I still like a lot.  I get why Kill 'Em All is so important and loved by the fans who were there at the time, but thrash has never been my bag, so that is why I mostly gloss over it.

So you like wussy Metallica. Not that there's anything wrong with that.

[nobloodyname]

I choose not to vote.

You still have made a choice

It's a no from me. Although if solely based (pun!) on his bass playing, it's a little more difficult to answer because of his curtailed body of work. Take into account his compositional skills, though, and it becomes clearer.