Author Topic: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today  (Read 12363 times)

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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #105 on: February 21, 2011, 10:14:34 AM »
Read my lips:


WE NEED TAXES TO PROVIDE THIS COUNTRY REVENUE GODDAMN HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE?

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #106 on: February 21, 2011, 10:18:01 AM »
Read my lips:


WE NEED TAXES TO PROVIDE THIS COUNTRY REVENUE GODDAMN HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE?

Thank you.  If the country raises its taxes, you as an individual may suffer for some period of time; if you protest and have those taxes lowered, everyone will suffer until the taxes are raised to proper governmental functionality or by some miracle everything gets better.
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Offline Nigerius Rex

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #107 on: February 21, 2011, 10:40:48 AM »
Read my lips:


WE NEED TAXES TO PROVIDE THIS COUNTRY REVENUE GODDAMN HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE?

I do not believe anyone disagrees with that; its the amount and frequency that is in question. Everyone is already tight on money and under extreme financial strain. If you pursue tax increase before spending decrease, what is going to happen is a short term gain at a long term detriment. The new tax money available to the state will end up where it always does (toilet), and we will eventually be to the point of either cutting spending dramatically or face collapse.

Offline j

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #108 on: February 21, 2011, 11:04:15 AM »
It's not a matter of trusting the government's general competence. It's a matter of trusting them more than anyone else.
And it's arguably the stupidest decision we can collectively make. Why in the hell centralizing power in hands of a relatively few people seems like a good idea eludes me. If anybody wants evidence of what that mindset leads to, I suggest a look at the present situation in California.



Why would you need more people? Then it'd just be one giant clusterfuck.

I still fail to understand your "government can't do anything right" mindset

This.  I was having a discussion with my father and brother last night about the political views of Thomas Jefferson, and his idea of statist rather than central government.  It dawned on me that the time in which Jefferson espoused those beliefs were a time before fast travel was possible, before nations interacted on the level that they do today.  Most politics happened within the nation, and therefore politics occurred on a smaller scale, in which it would make sense to divide government by state.  If one were to bring Thomas Jefferson into the 20th century, to say nothing of the 21st, so he could see the United States interacting on the world stage with Europe, a bunch of Middle Eastern countries, and even Russia, he would say that the system of statist politics is outmoded in a world where events occur on the world stage.  The state model is too small-scale for the world in which we're living, and government should consequentially get bigger.

This is of course disregarding the fact that politics should not kneel to the wisdom of the ancients, as Americans so often and mistakenly do.

I think this is true regarding international affairs and certain other issues, but I think there are a LOT of things that might be better off relegated to "smaller government" (the states).  I'm no libertarian, but one of the biggest problems I see with our government is a complete disconnect between public officials and constituents.  When you decrease the scale by giving the states more responsibility, you're not gonna fix all the major problems in the system (again, I think that's impossible), but you at least have a bit more accountability and perhaps vested interest from people in their state and local governments.

Despite the age of instant communication, etc, the U.S. is just too damn big for a central government in the current system to be truly representative or remotely accountable (this is not even considering what the elected do once in office).

This is all speculative, and I haven't studied this much, so it's by no means a concrete opinion.  Just a thought off the top of my head.

-J

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #109 on: February 21, 2011, 11:49:00 AM »
Read my lips:


WE NEED TAXES TO PROVIDE THIS COUNTRY REVENUE GODDAMN HOW STUPID CAN YOU BE?

I do not believe anyone disagrees with that; its the amount and frequency that is in question. Everyone is already tight on money and under extreme financial strain. If you pursue tax increase before spending decrease, what is going to happen is a short term gain at a long term detriment. The new tax money available to the state will end up where it always does (toilet), and we will eventually be to the point of either cutting spending dramatically or face collapse.

The same can be said of simply spending without increasing taxes, and indeed lowering them as we've seen.  Our taxes aren't even that high; for a compromise, we could even revert tax rates to pre-Bush cuts and still cut spending to a few programs and be alright.  I don't remember if I've mentioned it in this thread, but our taxes right now are the lowest they've been since the Korean War, over 50 years ago.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #110 on: February 21, 2011, 11:55:36 AM »
From what I've read though if you add the Social Security it jumps to 17% which is high for taxes.  The real problem is cost of living. The government needs to work on this problem more.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #111 on: February 21, 2011, 12:00:43 PM »
So maybe we should cut Social Security.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #112 on: February 21, 2011, 12:02:15 PM »
So maybe we should cut Social Security.
  It's a very hard line to say that or others.  But in the end most need to a little bit.  Yes.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #113 on: February 21, 2011, 12:26:09 PM »
No, I really think personal programs like Social Security should be cut, and those that promote national welfare should be spared.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #114 on: February 21, 2011, 02:01:40 PM »
No, I really think personal programs like Social Security should be cut, and those that promote national welfare should be spared.
The problem is that in this day and age a lot of companies cut out profit sharing and or 401k/IRA's.  It's the first cost cutting thing a company does beside cutting hours.  Not everybody can save to the point of being comforable in the retirement days. So SS has it's place.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #115 on: February 21, 2011, 02:03:06 PM »
Like I said, things may necessarily be difficult for a while.
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Offline William Wallace

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #116 on: February 21, 2011, 02:54:51 PM »
It's not a matter of trusting the government's general competence. It's a matter of trusting them more than anyone else.
And it's arguably the stupidest decision we can collectively make. Why in the hell centralizing power in hands of a relatively few people seems like a good idea eludes me. If anybody wants evidence of what that mindset leads to, I suggest a look at the present situation in California.



Why would you need more people? Then it'd just be one giant clusterfuck.

I still fail to understand your "government can't do anything right" mindset

This.  I was having a discussion with my father and brother last night about the political views of Thomas Jefferson, and his idea of statist rather than central government.  It dawned on me that the time in which Jefferson espoused those beliefs were a time before fast travel was possible, before nations interacted on the level that they do today.  Most politics happened within the nation, and therefore politics occurred on a smaller scale, in which it would make sense to divide government by state.  If one were to bring Thomas Jefferson into the 20th century, to say nothing of the 21st, so he could see the United States interacting on the world stage with Europe, a bunch of Middle Eastern countries, and even Russia, he would say that the system of statist politics is outmoded in a world where events occur on the world stage.  The state model is too small-scale for the world in which we're living, and government should consequentially get bigger.

This is of course disregarding the fact that politics should not kneel to the wisdom of the ancients, as Americans so often and mistakenly do.
Right. We have planes, so everybody vote democrat.  :\ In this whole paragraph I see no good reason to justify the massive government we have today. For one, a lot of the growth in government has nothing to do with other countries, much of it is domestic.

International relations is not a modern concept. Jefferson served as minister to France, completed the Louisiana purchase (It's dubious constitutionality is besides the point for now), and played an important role in the first Barbary War, just to name a few examples. So why does interacting on the world stage, which we've done since the beginning of the country, justify a big government?

And the state's weren't supposed to deal with foreign countries. That's why we have a president and congress. Within the limits of the constitution, those two branches have all the power they need to conduct international relations.

The only exceptions I can think of would be a growing military to defend the country as it expands and maybe more seats in congress to represent the increasing population.

Offline Cool Chris

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #117 on: February 21, 2011, 05:02:34 PM »
No, I really think personal programs like Social Security should be cut, and those that promote national welfare should be spared.

SD, isn't that traditionally a GOP stance/ideal?

Ultimately something needs to be done about the Big 3 Untouchables (SS, Medicare and Medicaid).


The problem is that in this day and age a lot of companies cut out profit sharing and or 401k/IRA's.  It's the first cost cutting thing a company does beside cutting hours.  Not everybody can save to the point of being comforable in the retirement days. So SS has it's place.

King, maybe I am misrepresenting your ideas, but it seems contrary to your earlier posts, in that SS is a more ‘liberal’ idea, instead of giving individuals better use of their personal dollars. Some people are not going to retire on their own, but too many people think SS is going to bankroll their retirement, when that was never its intention. People need to save more, put money in to IRAs (that are independent of their jobs/employers) and people would be better off doing so with their own money. 
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #118 on: February 21, 2011, 05:07:59 PM »
I believe in liberal ideas.  Like anything the Government need to be monitored on all things involving our money that's all.  I believe some don't have the jobs or the wherewithal to save for retirement so what little you get back from SS is important.  I've seen my grandparents over the years and it isn't much.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #119 on: February 21, 2011, 05:33:09 PM »
Yes, that idea is normally conservative, but it's better than cutting spending to REALLY important programs like road maintenance and education.
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Offline orcus116

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #120 on: February 21, 2011, 05:37:23 PM »
Education is a bit underfunded but its main problem is that the money isn't being utilized correctly.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #121 on: February 21, 2011, 05:40:07 PM »
I don't doubt that but cutting the funding won't make things any easier.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #122 on: February 24, 2011, 11:11:40 AM »
I'm too lazy to make another thread or copy & paste the quote, so here's another article, except this one is about the Supreme Court and the Voting Rights Act of '65:

https://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/23/is-anyone-watching/?hp
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #123 on: February 24, 2011, 12:03:01 PM »
Though I have always understood the necessity of a right wing party to counter-balance more reckless left wing actions; I gotta say the Republicans these past weeks are getting completely out of control!  Of all the areas to cut spending they are now attacking core foundations of civilizations like education?!

I am extremely disappointed that Obama is practically silent among all this; while the Republicans are shouting over all mediums.

(Also, why are Republican chicks always hot; my god....)

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #124 on: February 24, 2011, 12:29:27 PM »
I mean the main reason Obama is silent is because the second half of his term he has to tow the line and appear conciliatory in word if not in deed; the first half, after all, was marked by Republicans shouting him down and rallying the entire country against him.  I'm not sure he really has any other choice.
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Offline soundgarden

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #125 on: February 24, 2011, 12:37:37 PM »
I mean the main reason Obama is silent is because the second half of his term he has to tow the line and appear conciliatory in word if not in deed; the first half, after all, was marked by Republicans shouting him down and rallying the entire country against him.  I'm not sure he really has any other choice.

Has to, for what end?  His bi-partisan approach is producing half-assed policies and dividing the nation and congress in the process.  Dems are loosing seats all over the place and the reasons are banal, cliche, republican vitriol.  All the effort in enacting his health plan will now be added to the effort of the Republicans to repeal it.  

He needs to rally the nation; and get his supporters heard else we loose 2012 and spend the four years following dismantling what he has done.  Is this forward progress or political jousting?

edit..correct me if I am wrong; but have not all the presidents who have accomplished the grandest done so under the torrent of shouting from across the aisle? Christ, we had half the nation secede at one time due to one president' relentless ardor.  THAT is what we need to get things done; whether right wing or left wing policies.  We need to move forward.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #126 on: February 24, 2011, 12:46:08 PM »
I mean the main reason Obama is silent is because the second half of his term he has to tow the line and appear conciliatory in word if not in deed; the first half, after all, was marked by Republicans shouting him down and rallying the entire country against him.  I'm not sure he really has any other choice.

Has to, for what end?  His bi-partisan approach is producing half-assed policies and dividing the nation and congress in the process.  Dems are loosing seats all over the place and the reasons are banal, cliche, republican vitriol.  All the effort in enacting his health plan will now be added to the effort of the Republicans to repeal it.  

He needs to rally the nation; and get his supporters heard else we loose 2012 and spend the four years following dismantling what he has done.  Is this forward progress or political jousting?

edit..correct me if I am wrong; but have not all the presidents who have accomplished the grandest done so under the torrent of shouting from across the aisle? Christ, we had half the nation secede at one time due to one president' relentless ardor.  THAT is what we need to get things done; whether right wing or left wing policies.  We need to move forward.

I agree with soundgargen.  Obama has to will his way to get what he wants done. You know tha saying, confidence breeds success.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #127 on: February 24, 2011, 01:27:04 PM »
I'm not disagreeing with you, but that strategy didn't work well in 2009 and 2010, leading to the aforementioned shouting down and party of 'no.'
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Offline lordxizor

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #128 on: February 24, 2011, 01:39:46 PM »
I was reading an article a few days ago that said that Obama's silence is suggesting that the real work and compromise is quietly getting done behind closed doors rather than in shouting matches in the media. We'll see if it's true and if something happens. I too am shocked to see the direction some of these new Republicans are going. I'm all for spending cuts, just have them be in the largest areas, like Defense!

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #129 on: February 24, 2011, 02:36:45 PM »
True that. Time to lay the Truman and Bush doctrines to rest anyway.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #130 on: February 25, 2011, 09:28:46 AM »


:biggrin:
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #131 on: February 25, 2011, 10:31:08 AM »
:lol

Awesome

Offline j

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #132 on: February 25, 2011, 11:15:11 AM »
 ::)

All the shameless partisanship in here is making me want to barf. :lol

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #133 on: February 25, 2011, 11:16:34 AM »
I mean it's true...
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #134 on: February 25, 2011, 11:20:23 AM »
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #135 on: February 25, 2011, 12:22:25 PM »
Personally I don't like Comcast because they tend to have a very conservative bent, but that was kinda ridiculous.
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