david prater =/

[wkiml]

For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.

so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples

It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?

my dad asked mp himself how to play it
mp said a lot of the snares are triggered and therefor it is impossible to play lie the album

So?

maybe if you were a drummer you would understand

Didn't they play the entire album live a couple of times during the 8VM tour over in Europe


https://mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=925

[ReaPsTA]

Question for Prater/Havona if he's willing to answer -

The triggering itself doesn't bother me, but why not sample MP's drum kit?

[lutima]

Here's the thing, havona.  This is, first and foremost, a forum for Dream Theater fans.  Because more fans than not (1) appreciate Mike Portnoy and, as fans, do eagerly take in a lot of what he says, and (2) do NOT like some of the choices Mr. Prater made on the Images & Words album, there is naturally going to be some negativity expressed on boards like this one.  If Mr. Prater can't be bothered to speak up on the subject, I don't see the need for others to come rushing to his defense.  It is great to have commentary from someone who was actually there, if indeed you were (forgive me for being skeptical, but this is the Internet, and anyone can say they are anybody).  If you have some direct knowledge of some of what went on, great.  Join the discussion and add some great perpective from the other side.  But I warn you:  tread carefully.  Do NOT come onto these boards and call Mike Portnoy a liar or call his integrity into question.  Doing that is a violation of the rules.  Are the rules biased and overprotective of the members of Dream Theater, while perhaps not oferring the same level of protection for criticism of others?  Yeah, they are.  Again, it is a Dream Theater forum.  If Mr. Prater has his own forum out there, he is welcome to have a "no Prater-bashing" rule if he chooses.  Keep your statements factual.  Give us whatever facts you have as you see them and leave the personal attacks at the door so we can draw out own conclusions.  For one thing, it makes your arguments weak if you are short on facts and long on personal attacks.  For another, personal attacks and flaming of the band members is against the forum rules and will get you banned from this place.  And unlike Super Dude, I am the DTF "board of directors," or however you put it.  So I hope you heed this warning.  Again, if you have an opposing perspective to offer, that is great and is in fact welcome.  But the next personal attack against a bandmember is not welcome and earns you a one-way trip to the exit door.

This.

[Rich Wilson]

Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.

I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .

[orcus116]

Aww shiii-

[Super Dude]

Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.

I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .

Oh no you didn't...

[hefdaddy42]

TBH, the triggered snares on Images & Words don't bother me at all.  Of course, I'm not the drummer.

[rumborak]

Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.

I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .

Oh no you didn't...

Give it enough time, and even KevMo will post here.

rumborak

[icysk8r]

For the millionth time: the triggered snare isn't that bad.

so you think 7:23 to 8:03 of metropolis part 1 isnt bad?
that is one of many examples

It doesn't bother me. Is it really that difficult to believe?

my dad asked mp himself how to play it
mp said a lot of the snares are triggered and therefor it is impossible to play lie the album

So?

maybe if you were a drummer you would understand

Didn't they play the entire album live a couple of times during the 8VM tour over in Europe


https://mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=925

yes, but 1 of two things may have happened. 1. they had a trigger live
2. he just played ghost notes.

The triggered snare doesn't matter to me as much as it did when I originally posted this thread.  So I don't really care anymore.  I guess David Prater did a good job, and I was just giving him a hard time. And I agree with Rich Wilson.

[emindead]

Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.

I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .

Oh no you didn't...

Give it enough time, and even KevMo will post here.

rumborak

[Perpetual Change]

Yeah. According to the info we have, most fans don't even care about the whole thing- and most of the ones that do actually like his work. So bravo, David.

I have to agree with that. For all the arguments, Images and Words is a great sounding album. Triggered snares are a matter of taste. And David is honest enough to have his own, straightforward opinions. Which is why I have more respect for him than the likes of Kevin Moore . . .

Oh no you didn't...

Give it enough time, and even KevMo will post here.

rumborak

Okay then. Let's get ready.

Commencing Operation: Bait KevMo

[SnakeEyes]

Here's my take on this (not that it matters LOL) ....

I do think Portnoy is a bit of a drama queen.  I could be totally wrong, but from what I've read in interviews and on his forum and from seeing him in interviews, he just seems like the type of guy that this Havona person is describing.  He seems like the type that is a control freak and perhaps resents David Prater for making an amazing album and for being in charge during that period in the band's history.  Could be wrong, so bosk don't ban me - will edit my post if you want.  I'm just giving my impression.  Honestly, no disrespect meant to DT.    

On the other hand, I'M SURE that the truth lies somwhere in the middle.  I'm sure that some of Portnoy's comments are accurate and I'm sure some of what Prater has said is accurate.  I'm also sure that both of them probably exaggerate the "bad" things that the other person did and have acted like cry-babies to some extent.  I'm sure of these two things because that's how people act.  Neither of them are completely right or completely wrong.  There is middle ground and the problem with discussing this is that NONE OF US WERE THERE, so WE DON'T KNOW.  Havona supposedly was there, but we have no details, so he or she is useless in my opinion.  I'd personally disregard his or her posts entirely.  Prater allegedly took this person out to dinner all the time, so yeah, that's an unbiased source.  

So, the point: Images & Words is an amazing album.  Triggered snare, blah blah..... who gives a crap?  There's stuff about Petrucci's tone that I don't like.  Some of his tones are over-processed and way too bright for my tastes.  For the most part, I like it, but I'm not about to crucify David Prater because there are one or two things I don't like about JP's guitar tone.  It was the early 90's and Prater captured the sound of that time.  

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).  Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years?  Let's just enjoy the album for the MASTERPIECE it is.  I think discussing the trigged snare issue is fine, but this ridiculous argument of Portnoy vs. Prater is stupid and useless.  No one will ever know the truth.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm glad not as many people are bothered by the triggered snare as I thought. I'm a huge fan of the early 90s sound. Maybe it would have sounded a lot better with a natural snare. Maybe not. I don't know how the real drum sound would have ended up with their budget. Because there are many albums from the late 80s and early 90s with awful sounding drums. But there are also many with my favourite drum sounds. But I like the triggered snare.

And let's not beat around the bush. Chances are this IS David Prater. But if he actually comes back, we'll deal with that one too. Because we'd all have been happy to just have Prater from the start.

[rumborak]

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).

That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.

rumborak

[Perpetual Change]

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).

That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.

rumborak

How is Systematic Chaos a sonic crime; apart from being really loud with little dynamic range, (sadly) like most albums.

[TAC]

So, the point: Images & Words is an amazing album.  Triggered snare, blah blah..... who gives a crap?  

THIS..and...

Let's just enjoy the album for the MASTERPIECE it is.   

...THAT

I mean WTF else is there to say? This is one of those maddening threads that really has no point.

Seriously!

[ReaPsTA]

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).

That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.

rumborak

I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.

[Perpetual Change]

No, there's a point. We're baiting Prater back into the thread, and maybe KevMo too.

[TAC]

No, there's a point. We're baiting Prater back into the thread, and maybe KevMo too.

Oh OK. Jeesh kind of like watching a car accident while waiting for the bodies to be pulled out.

[ariich]

Here's my take on this (not that it matters LOL) ....

I do think Portnoy is a bit of a drama queen.  I could be totally wrong, but from what I've read in interviews and on his forum and from seeing him in interviews, he just seems like the type of guy that this Havona person is describing.  He seems like the type that is a control freak and perhaps resents David Prater for making an amazing album and for being in charge during that period in the band's history.  Could be wrong, so bosk don't ban me - will edit my post if you want.  I'm just giving my impression.  Honestly, no disrespect meant to DT.    

On the other hand, I'M SURE that the truth lies somwhere in the middle.  I'm sure that some of Portnoy's comments are accurate and I'm sure some of what Prater has said is accurate.  I'm also sure that both of them probably exaggerate the "bad" things that the other person did and have acted like cry-babies to some extent.  I'm sure of these two things because that's how people act.  Neither of them are completely right or completely wrong.  There is middle ground and the problem with discussing this is that NONE OF US WERE THERE, so WE DON'T KNOW.  Havona supposedly was there, but we have no details, so he or she is useless in my opinion.  I'd personally disregard his or her posts entirely.  Prater allegedly took this person out to dinner all the time, so yeah, that's an unbiased source.  

So, the point: Images & Words is an amazing album.  Triggered snare, blah blah..... who gives a crap?  There's stuff about Petrucci's tone that I don't like.  Some of his tones are over-processed and way too bright for my tastes.  For the most part, I like it, but I'm not about to crucify David Prater because there are one or two things I don't like about JP's guitar tone.  It was the early 90's and Prater captured the sound of that time.  

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).  Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years?  Let's just enjoy the album for the MASTERPIECE it is.  I think discussing the trigged snare issue is fine, but this ridiculous argument of Portnoy vs. Prater is stupid and useless.  No one will ever know the truth.

Aside from the idea that Portnoy resents Prater for anything other than the fact that they didn't work well together, there are some really good points in this post

The whole argument is ridiculous and unnecessary. Even more so than most DT forum arguments

[orcus116]

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).

That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.

rumborak

I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.

Could it be the mastering that is the problem?

[ReaPsTA]

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).

That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.

rumborak

I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.

Could it be the mastering that is the problem?

That tends to be my opinion. I made stereo mixes of SC by downmixing the 5.1 mixes, and it sounds a lot better without all the mastering compression.

[splent]

I like the triggered snare and like the original I&W album better than the remixed-non-triggered stuff.  That was the time and the place, that stuff was IN, it MAKES the album what it is, I LOVE the album.

[millahh]

I like the triggered snare and like the original I&W album better than the remixed-non-triggered stuff.  That was the time and the place, that stuff was IN, it MAKES the album what it is, I LOVE the album.

Well-put.  And honestly, I don't think anyone would give the snare a second thought if not for all of MP's whinging about it...

[BlobVanDam]

Does it stand up nowadays?  Musically, definitely.  Sonically?  Some of it yes, some of it no.  But, there are a lot of albums like that.  A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).

That's the hilarious part about all this actually. Here's MP, criticizing someone else for a tiny dent in an otherwise sonically wonderful album, whereas MP himself has produced a sonic crime like Systematic Chaos.

rumborak

I'm not sure if this matters, but Kevin Shirley said in an interview that one of his favorite parts of working with JP and MP as producers was the high quality of the recordings.

Could it be the mastering that is the problem?

That tends to be my opinion. I made stereo mixes of SC by downmixing the 5.1 mixes, and it sounds a lot better without all the mastering compression.

Nice.
And rumby, you're going overboard. SC sounds no worse than 95% of all other albums released. Blaming MP for the mastering engineer's work is a bit weak.

[orcus116]

I semi-agree here, though I'm with Rumby only for the fact that like you said, Blob, that SC sounds like a lot of modern metal albums that are compressed to shit. I'm just wondering why MP was OK with that fact. The interviews where Northfield was talking about BC&SL makes me hopeful for more dynamic range though which is awesome no matter how you cut it.

[BlobVanDam]

I'm not saying SC sounds great sonically, I'm just saying that it doesn't stand out as worse than a lot of other albums, and you can't just blame MP for that. Obviously he seems to have the final say on everything, but at the same time, he's no mastering engineer either.
And yes, I have a feeling BCASL is going to sound a lot more dynamic than SC. It's good to know that they're at least aware of the issue and the feedback from SC. If SC weren't such a heavy album overall, I might be bothered by SC's mastering, but as it is, it doesn't sound too bad with the heavier stuff like CM and TDEN.

[Super Dude]

Through all this debate and confusion, I wonder where havona went?

[perfey]

I like the triggered snare and like the original I&W album better than the remixed-non-triggered stuff.  That was the time and the place, that stuff was IN, it MAKES the album what it is, I LOVE the album.

This, couldnt care less about the whole triggering issue. I dont notice and think of it when I listen to the album I just enjoy it for the masterpiece it is.

[faemir]

A lot of DT's newer albums will be sonically dated in a few years (downtuned guitars, growling vocals, all that 'heavy' stuff DT does now).  Are we going to go blaming Portnoy for that stuff in 10 years?

But the difference there is that it is the band making those decisions (well, MP and JP), and they are having an infinitely better studio time because of it (and I have no problem with those elements of DT anyway )

[Super Dude]

I do hate the loudness war personally, and I wish DT wouldn't compress the hell out of their albums.  However, it's true that pretty much everyone else is doing it as well.  So there's really nothing you can do; the entire music industry will have to have a change of attitude before CD's are easy on the ear again.

[rumborak]

While it may be true that SC is "just like every other new metal album out there", I fail to see the need for DT to follow that route. DT are known for going their own way, and especially in this case (and people have decried the loudness war for at least 5 years now) they simply could have continued to go their own way.
These days I barely ever listen to SC because I find it tiring to do so.
Either way, I'm only saying this to put things into context. SC has already aged quite a bit, whereas it's as joyous to listen to IAW as it was 15 years ago. SC is far more "unlistenable-to" [sic] already than IAW.

rumborak

[Super Dude]

Good point.  My point though was that nobody in the music industry really sees this as a problem.  Costumers buy it anyway or maybe because of ridiculous compression, so it's going to continue.

[KevShmev]

I do hate the loudness war personally, and I wish DT wouldn't compress the hell out of their albums.  However, it's true that pretty much everyone else is doing it as well.  

Everyone else is NOT doing it.  Some of the new cds I have gotten this year sound terrific, and do not sound compressed or too loud at all. 

And to those saying I&W sounds great, I agree!  The triggered snare has never really bothered me, and everything else about that record sounds great. 

[BlobVanDam]

Well glad the new album will ( ) sound a lot better in that regard then.