Favorite DT Epic/Long Song (including Trial of Tears)

[robwebster]

Well if we're getting picky, In the Presence is split into two, and 6 Degrees is cut up into 8, yet we consider them both to be one song each.

whos getting picky? both those songs were written as one and performed live as one. they just happen to be split into separate tracks on the studio albums.

https://www.mikeportnoy.com/dates/tourography/?show=1042

Or, sometimes, not.



I do agree with you, to be fair. I'm just being difficult 'cause the phobia of referring to, say, Solitary Shell as an entity within itself does bug me, so I'm taking this as an excuse to soapbox. It's just terminology. Besides which, by basically any definition given, it's totally its own song! Song-within-a-song. They've even indexed it separately to let us listen to it on its own!

Six Degrees is a song. About to Crash (Reprise) is a song. Ooh I love music, me.

[MykeHavoc]

6 Degrees is not always played in its entirety. And be that as it may, Portnoy said on many occasions that 12 Steps was meant to be played as a whole and that that was the idea all along. It was an experiment that hasn't come to full fruition yet, but I'm sure will someday. I mean had they just written it over ten years then released it at once, everyone would still consider it a suite of music.

And another note, A Mind Beside Itself is also three different songs. I feel its unfair to not have the option to pick any "epic" regardless on format. I mean, even if you refuse to accept, then by that logic, Glass Prison is in of itself a qualifying song (as would just about every individual part of the suite).

[MykeHavoc]

And if the thread title now states "long song", then stuff like The Mirror/Lie, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, The Best of Times, Learning to Live, Sacrificed Sons, Beyond This Life, Home, Finally Free, Ministry of Lost Souls etc. all qualify. I know this is for fun and simply a discussion, but I feel the format is a bit sloppy.

[darkshade]

i know Six Degrees' parts have been played separately, i too used to consider the individual parts their own songs (and i guess they are, i like that song-within-a-song thing)

as far as the 12step suite, it is still 5 separate songs released on 5 separate albums. It's not like each track was "Twelve Step Saga: I The Glass Prison" "Twelve Step Saga: II This Dying Soul" etc etc...

had the piece been performed live by now and was put together as one piece then it'd be a different story. even with people editing the songs together and such in the other thread, the production is different on all tracks, and the flow isnt so good on most of the transitions. (ive listened to it as one song (suite) about 3-4 times since BC&SL came out.

as a fan since ToT, ive seen the piece grow, but ive known the older songs (obviously) for a long time; and until the piece is performed fully live, i see it as 5 separate but very related songs. it needs that unifying factor to see it as one piece

[darkshade]

And if the thread title now states "long song", then stuff like The Mirror/Lie, Scarred, Lines in the Sand, The Best of Times, Learning to Live, Sacrificed Sons, Beyond This Life, Home, Finally Free, Ministry of Lost Souls etc. all qualify. I know this is for fun and simply a discussion, but I feel the format is a bit sloppy.

i actually stated (in a couple of replies somewhere in the beginning of the first page) why those songs (and many others) where not included

[The Letter M]

as far as the 12step suite, it is still 5 separate songs released on 5 separate albums. It's not like each track was "Twelve Step Saga: I The Glass Prison" "Twelve Step Saga: II This Dying Soul" etc etc...

Except each movement of the 5 songs has continuity for the whole suite in that each movement represents a Step in the Twelve-Step process, meaning that while each song is it's own song, each song also comprises two or three movements of the WHOLE suite. While it's not explicitly written on the liner notes, "This Dying Soul" does have two parts, labelled "IV. Reflections Of Reality (Revisited)" and "V. Release", showing that it is indeed meant to be a continuation of TGP's three movements, labelled I-III. I don't think it had to be blatantly labelled on the song titles - it would have distracted from the fact that they are part of the album they're on, but keeping the movements labelled showed that they were indeed part of something bigger that was beyond the album.

I mean, people view SFAM as it's own album, and while it's labelled as "Metropolis Part 2", how many of us really consider it a true sequel? It's more of a re-telling of a similar story, using characters that kind of represent the original song. By title alone, SFAM is a continuation of "Metropolis Part 1", but I really don't view "Scenes From A Memory" as a sequel to "The Miracle & The Sleeper", just two similar stories where the second references the first.

-Marc.

[M-boogie]

A Change of Seasons

[chrisbDTM]

ACOS!

[Elsydeon]

Trial of tears is my favorite dream theater song.  But as for my favorite epic.....ACOS or trial of tears.....
A change of seasons.  

[darkshade]

as far as the 12step suite, it is still 5 separate songs released on 5 separate albums. It's not like each track was "Twelve Step Saga: I The Glass Prison" "Twelve Step Saga: II This Dying Soul" etc etc...

Except each movement of the 5 songs has continuity for the whole suite in that each movement represents a Step in the Twelve-Step process, meaning that while each song is it's own song, each song also comprises two or three movements of the WHOLE suite. While it's not explicitly written on the liner notes, "This Dying Soul" does have two parts, labelled "IV. Reflections Of Reality (Revisited)" and "V. Release", showing that it is indeed meant to be a continuation of TGP's three movements, labelled I-III. I don't think it had to be blatantly labelled on the song titles - it would have distracted from the fact that they are part of the album they're on, but keeping the movements labelled showed that they were indeed part of something bigger that was beyond the album.

I mean, people view SFAM as it's own album, and while it's labelled as "Metropolis Part 2", how many of us really consider it a true sequel? It's more of a re-telling of a similar story, using characters that kind of represent the original song. By title alone, SFAM is a continuation of "Metropolis Part 1", but I really don't view "Scenes From A Memory" as a sequel to "The Miracle & The Sleeper", just two similar stories where the second references the first.

-Marc.

i know. i know. Originally i didnt include it because of the thread going on right now about it, but also because, as i said, i wanted to focus on individual pieces written at a certain time. im pretty sure i started a similar thread here (or maybe over at Prog Archives) and i included the 12 step suite. it's just because of the nature of the suite that i didnt include it. Again, had it been performed and/or released as a whole by now, it'd be a different story (production values, transitions, etc....)

[hefdaddy42]

People, it's really very simple.

In chronological order:

ACOS is one song with multiple movements.  Most of the time it has been played as one song, but on occasion, individual movements (or parts of movements) have been played on their own.  But it's one song.

WFS/LTL are 2 songs.  They are not now nor have they ever been one song. 

AMBI is three songs, not one.  It has never been presented as anything other than a 3-song suite.  They have been performed all together, separately, and with only 2 of the 3 together.  But they are three songs, not one.

The Mirror and Lie are two songs.  They have been performed together and separately.  But they are two songs, not one.

SFAM is one album of 12 songs.  They are organized into 2 Acts, and 9 Scenes, but they are 12 songs, not one.

SDOIT is one song of 8 movements.  Most of the time it has been performed, it was the entire song, but some of the movements have also been performed individually, much like ACOS.  The only difference between SDOIT and ACOS is that the movements on the SDOIT CD were individually tracked for convenience.  But it is one song, not eight.

ITPOE is one song, not two.  It was written and recorded as one song.  The vast majority of the times it has been performed live, it was performed as one song, although the sections were played separately a time or two.  The only reason it was ever divided was that the band felt that it was the song that would serve as the best album opener as well as the best album closer; therefore it was split for presentation on the CD.  But it is one song, not two.

The 12 Steps Suite is a SUITE (as it has always been referred) of 5 separate songs written over the course of 5 separate albums.  The intention was that they would eventually be played together live as a suite, although I would imagine that this particular ship has sailed.  All of the first four songs have been played individually (and yes, TGP and TDS have been played as a pair).  But they are five songs, not one.

The label "epic" is a separate discussion, but I personally don't think that a song can be called an epic just because it is a certain length, or just because it is divided into separate movements.  It is basically a song-by-song thing.

[LieLowTheWantedMan]

^ And there you have it.

And about the epic thing. As I said, for a song to be an epic, it has to feel epic. For instance, Karn Evil 9 by ELP is half an hour long, and it's a really fun song, but I would never consider calling it an epic. It just doesn't carry that feel.