Wisconsin senators may have fled the state.

[yorost]

All of the democrat senators are missing in Wisconsin as of earlier today.  They're hiding to prevent a quorum from forming so that a bill which will cripple unions for most public employees cannot pass.  Essentially, the issue is they've been stiff armed by republicans on this bill.  It's been championed by the new governor and they are attempting to force it through with little meaningful input from democrats despite it being polarizing and the capitol being filled with protesters.

Seems likely that they've fled the state because the republicans cannot have them arrested outside of Wisconsin and brought by force to the floor.  If they can force one democrat to the floor they will be able to legally vote.  Even if they are in the state who knows how police would respond to an order like that, though.

[El Barto]

This happened in Texas a few years ago.  Bill Richardson put them up in a nice hotel in Santa Fe for a few days.  Ain't democracy grand?  These stunts never work sense they'll have to go back eventually, and while both sides obstruct as much as possible, the public only notices the well publicized ones like this and react poorly. 

[William Wallace]

How dare they violate the sanctity of the democratic process! By what right do these union puppets strip the people - the glorious electorate - of their right to self government through their elected representatives? This is madness.

[Cool Chris]

While I do support the idea of standing up for ones’ ideals, I don’t think refusing to take part in a vote so the vote is forced to not happen is a good way to do your part as a legislator.

 

Senate Minority Leader Mark Miller said he and fellow Democrats left Madison because they were "trying to allow opportunity for democracy to work."

The best way to show democracy working is by not going to work


Regarding the proposed bill, my wife is a teacher and I don’t feel this is the end of the world. It’s not the best use of time, nor the best target to go after when it comes to trimming budgets. But if they want teachers to pay more of their health insurance premiums, I don’t have a big problem with that. My health insurance premiums have gone up every year. My wife’s has gone from $0.00 to $0.00 since she started teaching. I don’t think unions should be a primary target in these budget crunches, but they shouldn’t be left alone like it is the 1890s and workers are working 14 hours a day 7 days a week and need to rely on unions to survive.

[yorost]

The health premium is a bit misleading.  Lots of districts have been negotiating for years to keep their great health benefit at the cost of forgoing raises, etc.  Killing it will be a sort of retroactive decades worth of terrible losses in contract negotiations for many.

[El Barto]

The health premium is a bit misleading.  Lots of districts have been negotiating for years to keep their great health benefit at the cost of forgoing raises, etc.  Killing it will be a sort of retroactive decades worth of terrible losses in contract negotiations for many.

Huh. That's interesting.  One of those situations where you're doomed by your associations.  It sounds like the teachers might well be right, but the union will get them killed in the political arena.

I just checked into the Texas version of this, and in their case they were preventing a quorum that would have re-gerrymandered the original gerrymandering.  Since the new republican controlled house was going to take five seats from them, the Democrats really didn't have anything to lose.  Sure enough, they managed to take out several very powerful and popular democrats. 

[PlaysLikeMyung]

ugh don't even get me started on redistricting... I can't wait to see what Pennsylvania comes up with

[Super Dude]

How dare they violate the sanctity of the democratic process! By what right do these union puppets strip the people - the glorious electorate - of their right to self government through their elected representatives? This is madness.

Wait, is this post sarcastic?

[ReaPsTA]

Wait what?

Shouldn't the rules be rewritten so this can't happen?

[William Wallace]

How dare they violate the sanctity of the democratic process! By what right do these union puppets strip the people - the glorious electorate - of their right to self government through their elected representatives? This is madness.

Wait, is this post sarcastic?

Of course not. But since the usual critics of anything that slows down the legislature didn't speak up, and have yet to, I thought I'd poke fun at the hypocrisy.

[El Barto]

Wait what?

Shouldn't the rules be rewritten so this can't happen?

Rules to prevent obstruction won't every be lessened since both sides do it. 

[ReaPsTA]

If I understand correctly, now teachers are leaving their jobs to protest.

When most people skip work to protest for higher wages, they're fired.  Why are teachers special in this regard?

[Fiery Winds]

If I understand correctly, now teachers are leaving their jobs to protest.

When most people skip work to protest for higher wages, they're fired.  Why are teachers special in this regard?

Think of the children!

[yorost]

If I understand correctly, now teachers are leaving their jobs to protest.

When most people skip work to protest for higher wages, they're fired.  Why are teachers special in this regard?

Teachers are using personal days or sick days to protest.  That's within their rights, but it puts a strain on substitute teachers, especially the big districts where the pool is a relatively smaller shared set.  If a teacher runs out of those days and continues to miss work they probably would face a stiff backlash from their districts' administration.  Keep in mind that most of the state's schools are unaffected.

Get it straight that nothing of the protests is fighting for higher wages or better benefits.  The fight is over the attempted neutering of specific unions, which will render it illegal for those sets of workers to ever unionize in a meaningful way.  All concessions in compensation the bill asks for from public workers have now been agreed to if they leave the union alone.  The protests are over whether it will be legal for them to bargain collectively in the future.

Part of what has flared Wisconsin attention to this bill, pushed by a republican governor, is that it attacks public workers unions which lean democrat and exempts the public workers unions that typically lean republican.  It attacks the unions for teachers, health care, etc but leaves alone unions for law enforcement, firefighting, etc.  People understand the reason for greater benefits for certain groups, but union rights is a tough one to justify splitting.

[ResultsMayVary]

If I understand correctly, now teachers are leaving their jobs to protest.

When most people skip work to protest for higher wages, they're fired.  Why are teachers special in this regard?

Think of the children!

[ReaPsTA]

Here's my question - Does anyone know what this bill actually does?  Removing collective bargaining rights is too broad.  They can't unionize at all?  They have unions but they're less powerful?  I still don't 100% understand it.

[yorost]

They can continue to unionize, but those unions won't be allowed to perform their primary purpose.  Think of it as a death knell for them even though it isn't the finishing stroke.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

The GOP stance on this is unbelievable. They positively refuse to compromise. I hope the WI people wise up and vote them out next election...

[contest_sanity]

Tom Morello from Rage Against The Machine is supposed to be playing a concert in Madison today in support of the protesters:

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/19/rage-against-machine-tom-morello-wisconsin_n_825627.html

Also, I'm pretty much in support of the protesters in this case.  This bill was only introduced last Monday and was trying to be rammed through in only a couple of days, without the public really even knowing about its massive consequences.  If the Democrats had to walk out to allow the bill to be properly set before the public eye, I think it's a good move.  Wisconsin has no filibuster, so I guess this is the best they could do.  The governor should at least agree to negotiate with the union side, which he is still refusing to do.

[PlaysLikeMyung]

If there's one thing living on the East coast has taught me, it's that you don't piss off the Unions

[Super Dude]

Great article from Krugman: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1&hp

[contest_sanity]

Great article from Krugman: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/opinion/21krugman.html?_r=1&hp

Yeah, I just read that one myself.  If the union side has already in principle agreed to the major fiscal portions of the bill, then why is talking about compromise about some of the rest of it a problem?  I think it's because Krugman's right: this isn't really a budget-solving bill but instead a power-wielding bill.

[Super Dude]

Indeed.  If American unions die, it's all over.

[Cool Chris]

Yeah, the more I read about this, the more annoying it is, just because of the nature of it and ho wit all went down. Though I still think fleeing the state instead of doing your duties as legislature isn't the answer either. 

Indeed.  If American unions die, it's all over.

 

[contest_sanity]

Though I still think fleeing the state instead of doing your duties as legislature isn't the answer either. 

What other course can they pursue?  Show back up, the legislature has its quorum, and the bill immediately passes.   Although, there's even talk now of putting these same measures into amendments of other bills and passing them that way.

[carl320]

https://www.indystar.com/article/20110222/NEWS/110222004/House-Democrats-flee-Indiana-stop-votes?odyssey=mod|breaking|text|IndyStar.com

Today’s fight was triggered by Republicans pushing a bill that would bar unions and companies from negotiating a contract that requires non-union members to kick-in fees for representation. It’s become the latest in what is becoming a national fight over Republican attempts to eliminate or limit collective bargaining.

[Super Dude]

Man, Krugman nailed it.  I hate to say it, but put on your tin foil hats, folks.  The Republicans are trying to destroy the unions.

[bosk1]

Which is to say the Republicans are FINALLY trying to do something worthwhile.  Unfortunately, I don't think we can ever fully kill off the unions.

[Super Dude]

You're anti-union?

[bosk1]

In general, yes, very much. 

[PlaysLikeMyung]

Could you elaborate?

[ResultsMayVary]

In general, yes, very much. 

I love you.

I also believe leaving the state isn't the answer. Seems pretty childish, like saying "I don't want a vote to take place!" because they know the bill will likely pass, easily.

[bosk1]

Could you elaborate?

On what part of my answer?  It's a huge topic, and there are obviously examples of situations where collective bargaining is useful for the worker.  But as a whole, while collective bargaining was instrumental in making necessary changes in working conditions at one point in time, they are now mostly irrelevant and corrupt, and do far more harm to employer/employee relations than perhaps any other single factor in the workplace.

[El Barto]

I'm forced to agree with Herr Bosk.  Unions are great in principle, but in practice tend to be criminally counterproductive.  I actually view them the same way as the political parties.  They both exist only to promote themselves, and not the people they claim to represent.  

Edit: That's not to say that I'd support the GOP trying to demolish them.  Not at all.

[Super Dude]

Right, if that's such a problem then maybe better union oversight within the organization, rather than government abolishing them completely.