Author Topic: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today  (Read 12365 times)

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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #35 on: February 17, 2011, 08:26:55 AM »
That quote...

WHAT THE FUCK?

And Boehner's quote about losing the jobs is just as bad, really.

I fear for this country. I really do

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #36 on: February 17, 2011, 08:46:15 AM »

:superdude: says: Sounds like they've got everything under control.  @ Anyone who would contest the value of the programs they're cutting, take a quick look at what we'll be losing: food safety, border security, hell even national security.  Basic things which would be VERY bad to lose.

It's scare tactic SD.  If one is in power, the other always tries to derail the other.  It's never about what is right for the people.  I will say it again.  It is time for the government to cut the fat.  It's time for us to push them to do so.  Scare tactics are just that.  We need to keep the goverenment(all Dems/Reps/Other) acountable.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #37 on: February 17, 2011, 08:56:26 AM »
What fat?  Like making sure there's no rat shit in my hamburger?
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #38 on: February 17, 2011, 09:04:08 AM »
What fat?  Like making sure there's no rat shit in my hamburger?

If I was to run my household the way the government does, they'd take my house away from me.  So your silly little rant adds nothing to what the real problem is.  They need to handle our money better and that means cuts then so be it.  Ever time I hear someone complain about how we cant cut taxes becaise of schools, rat shit, defense it makes me think that your ok with raising taxes.  Wait to you have to pay oil for your house.  Clothes for kids. Books for your kids.  Schooling.  Taxes.  you'll change your mind fast.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #39 on: February 17, 2011, 09:49:56 AM »
Bear in mind we have the lowest tax rate in the world right now...literally.  Europe has an insanely high tax rate and a strong middle class.  See I wouldn't mind being part of a strong middle class; being rich isn't as important as being financially secure.  If there wasn't so much social pressure to "go for the gold," we wouldn't be in this mess right now.

P.S. You have no way of conceptualizing right now what life would be like without those benefits.  Wait till those are all taken away, and tell me then you like going to the hospital regularly on food poisoning and not being able to provide your kids with a quality education.

And cuts does not mean handling our money better; it means the possibility of government shutdown by March.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #40 on: February 17, 2011, 10:01:04 AM »
Yet my co pay has gone up from $10 to $25 in 10 years and I had no deductible to $500.  Why is it that if we trim a little off the schools budgets kids won't be able to learn?  It's a fallacy to proclaim that americans kids will not learn or have the programs to learn if we have cutbacks.  Scare tactics again.

Why can't you see that we, as a people and government need to make a few sacrifices to better stable our economical state?  I'm laying blame on all parts of the government and us as spenders and we all need to "cut the fat" to better our future.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline antigoon

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #41 on: February 17, 2011, 10:10:43 AM »
I think the problem is that we're aiming to make sacrifices in the wrong places to sustain things like our exorbitant defense budget and the like.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #42 on: February 17, 2011, 10:21:38 AM »
Since abstract concepts translate into "scare tactics," let me put it into plain English:

Lower education spending = lower quality teachers and lower quality and outdated textbooks = lower quality classes = mediocre education
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #43 on: February 17, 2011, 10:22:51 AM »
And also they're not just trimming; where Planned Parenthood is concerned for instance, we're gonna end up just stopping short of zero funding.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #44 on: February 17, 2011, 10:49:58 AM »
I'm not just aiming at cuts that you bring up SD.  Cut to all.  I'm sorry but the government's spending is out of control and something needs to be done.

Now, if minimal cuts are made in education and more abroad, I'm for it.  But some hard choices need to be made and two battling factions pulling stunts like in your OP suggests that it's about power for their group and not for the betterment of us, the tax payers.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
"Oh, I am definitely a jackass!" - TAC

Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2011, 11:27:59 AM »
Budget aside, I'm more scared of these freshman who don't care that they have no idea what they're doing, or Boehner saying he doesn't care if his plan ends up losing jobs for americans

Offline orcus116

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2011, 11:32:56 AM »
Boehner is a god damn cretin.

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2011, 11:36:25 AM »
Budget aside, I'm more scared of these freshman who don't care that they have no idea what they're doing, or Boehner saying he doesn't care if his plan ends up losing jobs for americans

Yes.  I do agree with you.  Scary to hear that people in office come up with these ideas.  The more jobs, the more spending, the better the economy.  Seems simple to me.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2011, 11:39:04 AM »
I'm not just aiming at cuts that you bring up SD.  Cut to all.  I'm sorry but the government's spending is out of control and something needs to be done.

Now, if minimal cuts are made in education and more abroad, I'm for it.  But some hard choices need to be made and two battling factions pulling stunts like in your OP suggests that it's about power for their group and not for the betterment of us, the tax payers.

You do realize that what you don't pay in taxes will come out of your wallet when you try to take advantage of these services yourself, right?  I don't know why, but there seems to be a disconnect in the logic when people talk about taxes, like they think that taxes aren't there for anything but making your money disappear.  Look at Holland for example: for the middle class there is a 60% tax rate.  Seems a little high, until you realize that this means people never have to pay for health care, public education as high up as undergraduate college is free, and immigrants (particularly malcontents from the US) are provided with free housing and a bunch of amazing advantages.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #49 on: February 17, 2011, 11:44:14 AM »
If you spend too much, you have to stop spending as much.  Why is that so hard to see SD?!  I'm not saying cutting off what is important to you but some cuts need to be done.  Small, across the board.  Some more than others.  It's simple economics.  To me, you want to cherry pick you passions in politics.  Hard choices need to be made everywhere but it's not and end to how we teach and govern.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #50 on: February 17, 2011, 12:16:08 PM »
That's all good and well, but what you don't seem to realize is that what the Republicans are doing is not just small cuts, but significant ones, in the programs they don't like.  The only things they're not cutting are the things that need to be cut most: social security, Medicare, and Medicaid.

I agree some cuts need to be done, but some raising of taxation needs to be done too.  We're paying the lowest tax rate put upon the American people since the Korean War; that's sixty years.  If we were to even just get rid of the Bush tax cuts, it would not nearly be so hard to dig our way out of this mess, and we could cut a little bit out of some programs and get back on track in the next couple years.
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #51 on: February 17, 2011, 12:40:16 PM »
If you spend too much, you have to stop spending as much.  Why is that so hard to see SD?!  I'm not saying cutting off what is important to you but some cuts need to be done.  Small, across the board.  Some more than others.  It's simple economics.  To me, you want to cherry pick you passions in politics.  Hard choices need to be made everywhere but it's not and end to how we teach and govern.

Nobody's saying that nothing should be cut. But the way the GOP is going about these cuts is absolutely appalling.

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #52 on: February 17, 2011, 12:48:47 PM »
If you spend too much, you have to stop spending as much.  Why is that so hard to see SD?!  I'm not saying cutting off what is important to you but some cuts need to be done.  Small, across the board.  Some more than others.  It's simple economics.  To me, you want to cherry pick you passions in politics.  Hard choices need to be made everywhere but it's not and end to how we teach and govern.

Nobody's saying that nothing should be cut. But the way the GOP is going about these cuts is absolutely appalling.

This.  Not only are their choices in cuts irksome, but the number and extent as well.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #53 on: February 17, 2011, 01:05:26 PM »
Then I believe we are in agreement SD.

I do think that if the Reps were in charge the Dems would do the same thing.  It's a sad commentary on my part on how government is going.  I think that it's mostly the point I've been trying to make.  It's always an ideology problem and who can sabotage the others.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #54 on: February 17, 2011, 01:15:55 PM »
Then I believe we are in agreement SD.

I do think that if the Reps were in charge the Dems would do the same thing.  It's a sad commentary on my part on how government is going.  I think that it's mostly the point I've been trying to make.  It's always an ideology problem and who can sabotage the others.

I actually don't think the Democrats would do the same thing. I mean, they're going to be playing the same game, but when you examine the representatives themselves, there are far less extremists on the Left side than the Right. And it's extremism that's causing all these problems (I'm thinking Tea Partiers, who make up a fair portion of the Republican Freshmen).

Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #55 on: February 17, 2011, 01:20:53 PM »
I agree but they both sabotage in their own way. Look how the Dems snuck in the health care proposal.  Different methods....same results.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline PlaysLikeMyung

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #56 on: February 17, 2011, 01:33:03 PM »
Only if you don't like the health care bill. They didn't really sneak it in, either. The travesty of a bill that passed was a compromise between the two parties so that bill finally WOULD pass.

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #57 on: February 17, 2011, 01:37:09 PM »
Only if you don't like the health care bill. They didn't really sneak it in, either. The travesty of a bill that passed was a compromise between the two parties so that bill finally WOULD pass.

No it was sneaky and your right.  I wish buying health care was truly a free enterprise.  I should be able to shop for my health care and not be limited to 2 to 4 options but if it were to pass I'd go with it.  I'm not one of those nuts who will cry ever chance I have.  I would embrace it if it passes.

I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #58 on: February 17, 2011, 01:40:22 PM »
Health care goes right back to what I was saying about taxes vs. paying out of pocket: sure insurance is a tangled issue, but would you rather pay health care plus the bills insurance would normally cover?  If health care was a free enterprise, there would be no health coverage for you, period.  If you think health is expensive now, imagine what that will be like.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #59 on: February 17, 2011, 01:47:09 PM »
Not at all SD.  Of course it would be regulated by the government and what drives down prices?  Competition.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #60 on: February 17, 2011, 01:52:07 PM »
What's your favorite restaurant, shmeg?  Your favorite restaurant in the entire world, in all seriousness.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2011, 02:05:42 PM by Super Dude »
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Offline Cool Chris

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #61 on: February 17, 2011, 02:06:51 PM »
Sorry to butt in SD/King... just had some thoughts

Things have to be cut, period. They can be smart about it and trim the fat, and make due where they can. Just like 99.9% of American families are doing. People talk about the people wanting cuts but don’t want to lose any gov’t services. I’d be happy to trim some services, like NEA funding, for example, that I don’t think is critical to the functioning of the federal government.

Look at Holland for example: for the middle class there is a 60% tax rate.  Seems a little high, until you realize that this means people never have to pay for health care, public education as high up as undergraduate college is free, and immigrants (particularly malcontents from the US) are provided with free housing and a bunch of amazing advantages.

What is considered ‘middle class’ over there? If my family (on two full-time incomes) makes $90,000 gross, we would have $36,000 net after taxes. There is no way ‘free’ health care and other stuff makes up for that hit. That barely pays the mortgage and bills. I am assuming everything else is equal (cost of living, housing, etc…) which I know it is not.
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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #62 on: February 17, 2011, 02:13:05 PM »
There's a place in Boston called Redbones.  The cornmeal catfish and hushpuppys are to die for.

CC.  That is what I'm saying.  Somethings have to be cut.  Now, I'm not smart enough to tell you which ones should but I would hope our elected officials could make some hard choices for us, since it's their job and they work for us, the tax payers.
I don't like country music, but I don't mean to denigrate those who do. And for the people who like country music, denigrate means 'put down'.” - Bob Newhart
So wait, we're spelling it wrong and king is spelling it right? What is going on here? :lol -- BlobVanDam
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Offline j

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #63 on: February 17, 2011, 02:13:53 PM »
Lower education spending = lower quality teachers and lower quality and outdated textbooks = lower quality classes = mediocre education

I agree with quite a bit of what you've said in this thread, but pouring money into a cause does not make it better.  Spending more on education will not give us better teachers, better schools, a better system, and ultimately better educated kids.

The priority should be to optimize and improve the efficiency and efficacy of programs.  Which, of course, requires money.  But once the Republicans and Democrats have voted to put money into a given cause, they've "gotten credit" for it politically and publicly, so they don't care beyond that.

Both parties are misguided in their desires of where to allocate funding, but it doesn't even matter because they're both clueless with regard to fixing the problems inherent in the system.

-J

Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #64 on: February 17, 2011, 02:19:47 PM »
Sorry to butt in SD/King... just had some thoughts

Things have to be cut, period. They can be smart about it and trim the fat, and make due where they can. Just like 99.9% of American families are doing. People talk about the people wanting cuts but don’t want to lose any gov’t services. I’d be happy to trim some services, like NEA funding, for example, that I don’t think is critical to the functioning of the federal government.

Look at Holland for example: for the middle class there is a 60% tax rate.  Seems a little high, until you realize that this means people never have to pay for health care, public education as high up as undergraduate college is free, and immigrants (particularly malcontents from the US) are provided with free housing and a bunch of amazing advantages.

What is considered ‘middle class’ over there? If my family (on two full-time incomes) makes $90,000 gross, we would have $36,000 net after taxes. There is no way ‘free’ health care and other stuff makes up for that hit. That barely pays the mortgage and bills. I am assuming everything else is equal (cost of living, housing, etc…) which I know it is not.


Well like I said, whether through taxes or mortgage, the money doesn't just "disappear."  It pays off some expense that we as citizens incur.  Although I agree, we can definitely trim some fat, just be sure that trimming said fat doesn't cause further harm in the future.

On the other other hand, I feel another fundamental problem that undercuts our inability to get past either raising taxes or cutting spending is the American lifestyle of affluence and comfort.  People in America are used to living in affluence relative to the rest of the world.  I know I'm a hypocrite for saying so because I want to live well same as everyone else, but we may just have to give that up for a while, at least until we can get the economy to catch up in a generation or two.  I mean if you think about it, Dubya's insane spending habits are not the *only* reason we're in this mess; there were the credit shortcuts, Wall Street corruption, the housing bubble...much of it derived from people trying to live well beyond their means.  If you really want this economy to heal itself, you tell the American people to abandon their materialistic lifestyle, but that of course is foolish and impossible.

There's a place in Boston called Redbones.  The cornmeal catfish and hushpuppys are to die for.

CC.  That is what I'm saying.  Somethings have to be cut.  Now, I'm not smart enough to tell you which ones should but I would hope our elected officials could make some hard choices for us, since it's their job and they work for us, the tax payers.

Alright so I suppose that's a bad example, so I'll explain it simply, but I do feel as though it doesn't really do the matter justice: reducing cost means quality is reduced too, whether we're talking in terms of the private or public sectors of the economy.  Giving health care to corporations and competition would produce the McDonald's effect: health care could become really cheap, but you'd be doing more for your well-being to consult WebMD for all of your medical advice.

Lower education spending = lower quality teachers and lower quality and outdated textbooks = lower quality classes = mediocre education

I agree with quite a bit of what you've said in this thread, but pouring money into a cause does not make it better.  Spending more on education will not give us better teachers, better schools, a better system, and ultimately better educated kids.

The priority should be to optimize and improve the efficiency and efficacy of programs.  Which, of course, requires money.  But once the Republicans and Democrats have voted to put money into a given cause, they've "gotten credit" for it politically and publicly, so they don't care beyond that.

Both parties are misguided in their desires of where to allocate funding, but it doesn't even matter because they're both clueless with regard to fixing the problems inherent in the system.

-J

This is true and part of why I want to pursue a career in public policy.  A brilliant Republican friend of mine noted that all the money in the world will do no good without proper distribution.  That said however, all the skillful distribution of resources cannot occur if all that money is suddenly pulled out of the program.
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Offline King Postwhore

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #65 on: February 17, 2011, 02:25:26 PM »
You know.  I think in a way, we all want the same things but how it is implimented is the agruement.  We all seem to agree that we are not happy in the way our money is being put to use.  I'm very happy with the outcome of this discusion. I like hearing different views and I'll keep an open mind to this.  Now backto the silly, easy posts of humor!
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #66 on: February 17, 2011, 02:47:55 PM »
You know.  I think in a way, we all want the same things but how it is implimented is the agruement.  We all seem to agree that we are not happy in the way our money is being put to use.  I'm very happy with the outcome of this discusion. I like hearing different views and I'll keep an open mind to this.  Now backto the silly, easy posts of humor!

I mean I agree except of course I want the EPA to maintain its level of pre-cut funding, but yes. :)
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #67 on: February 18, 2011, 07:35:24 PM »
Ladies and gentlemen, directly from the work of one of our nation's ideological progenitors, a monsieur Marquis de Concordet (which I've been reading for my class on the Enlightenment):

Quote
The wealth produced each year provides a portion for disposal...he possesses it independently of the use to which he puts his faculties in order to provide for his needs [in a word, disposable income].  Hence it is out of this available portion of the annual wealth that the public authority, without violating anyone's rights, can establish the funds required for the security of the State, the preservation of peace within its borders, the protection of individual rights, the exercise of those powers established for the formation or execution of the law, and, finally, the maintenance of the public prosperity.

In other words, it is fully within the public authority's rights to tax the public of its disposable income in order to better ensure and maintain its health and prosperity. :biggrin:
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Offline hefdaddy42

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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #68 on: February 19, 2011, 04:59:26 AM »
The only suggestion that makes any sense in better management of the nation's funds and eventually paying off the national debt is a combination of cuts in spending with a raising of taxes.
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Re: G.O.P. 2011: Sacrificing tomorrow for a better today
« Reply #69 on: February 19, 2011, 05:27:50 AM »
Lower education spending = lower quality teachers and lower quality and outdated textbooks = lower quality classes = mediocre education

I agree with quite a bit of what you've said in this thread, but pouring money into a cause does not make it better.  Spending more on education will not give us better teachers, better schools, a better system, and ultimately better educated kids.


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Washington DC spends more per student than any other city in America. The students still perform worse than the rest of the country.