Author Topic: The official Redemption thread v. I Am the Storm - March 17th 2023  (Read 142204 times)

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Offline The Walrus

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1015 on: August 03, 2018, 08:58:41 AM »
Hey, the band can be proud of it all they want. But at the end of the day, we're listening to the album, and whatever impacts the enjoyment of listening is worthy to discuss imo. A TON of bands (not just prog) don't know when to, respectfully, STFU and trim their songs down. There are sooo many songs where I get to about 5 minutes (of 6, 7, 8, whatever) and just want to go to something else. I don't need to always have the riff reprised for the 5th time or get a third solo on the outro  :lol

And yeah like Samsara said, if you like it, cool! That's awesome and I'm actually happy about that  :biggrin:

I'm not saying it isn't worthy to discuss - not at all.  Of course it's worthy, that's why I'm discussing it.  However, I don't think the issue you described is an issue with the album being too long. You just don't like the songs, and that's cool.  I mean, if the (generic) band had 3 less songs and the album was under an hour, but the songs still present were unchanged, you'd still be wanting to go to something else at that 5 minute mark.  Thus, it's not the length of the album that is in question, but rather the songs themselves.

That's incorrect. I do like the songs. I just think there are parts that go on for too long relative to how interesting the passages are. Maybe there's a minute of fluff at the beginning/end or in the middle, maybe there's one too many solos. The length of the album is therefore directly related to the length of the songs themselves. I can absolutely like a song while having criticisms about it  :biggrin: It's very similar to how some people like Dream Theater songs but roll their eyes and look at their watches when the inevitable solo fest starts.

It's also relative to each and every band. Right off the top of my head I can think of a few albums that are some of my all-time favorites that only have 2 songs in the 5 minute range and 7 others beyond 7 minutes. Lots of my favorite albums have songs that go well over 10, 15, 20 minute marks.

This album, specifically, I think is very good on the first listen. I will definitely be spinning it again. However there are a couple points (solos, namely) that I think, "I could do without that, getting kinda bored here." Hopefully that changes, but yeah, I think it's quite healthy, actually, to enjoy something and point out the flaws! It's educational and, honestly, fun. (Hanging around with pure power metal diehards who refuse to discuss any potential criticisms in music we both like has made me hyper sensitive to this issue, truth be told.)
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Offline Lethean

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1016 on: August 03, 2018, 09:15:34 AM »
Hey, the band can be proud of it all they want. But at the end of the day, we're listening to the album, and whatever impacts the enjoyment of listening is worthy to discuss imo. A TON of bands (not just prog) don't know when to, respectfully, STFU and trim their songs down. There are sooo many songs where I get to about 5 minutes (of 6, 7, 8, whatever) and just want to go to something else. I don't need to always have the riff reprised for the 5th time or get a third solo on the outro  :lol

And yeah like Samsara said, if you like it, cool! That's awesome and I'm actually happy about that  :biggrin:

I'm not saying it isn't worthy to discuss - not at all.  Of course it's worthy, that's why I'm discussing it.  However, I don't think the issue you described is an issue with the album being too long. You just don't like the songs, and that's cool.  I mean, if the (generic) band had 3 less songs and the album was under an hour, but the songs still present were unchanged, you'd still be wanting to go to something else at that 5 minute mark.  Thus, it's not the length of the album that is in question, but rather the songs themselves.

That's incorrect. I do like the songs. I just think there are parts that go on for too long relative to how interesting the passages are. Maybe there's a minute of fluff at the beginning/end or in the middle, maybe there's one too many solos. The length of the album is therefore directly related to the length of the songs themselves. I can absolutely like a song while having criticisms about it  :biggrin: It's very similar to how some people like Dream Theater songs but roll their eyes and look at their watches when the inevitable solo fest starts.

It's also relative to each and every band. Right off the top of my head I can think of a few albums that are some of my all-time favorites that only have 2 songs in the 5 minute range and 7 others beyond 7 minutes. Lots of my favorite albums have songs that go well over 10, 15, 20 minute marks.

This album, specifically, I think is very good on the first listen. I will definitely be spinning it again. However there are a couple points (solos, namely) that I think, "I could do without that, getting kinda bored here." Hopefully that changes, but yeah, I think it's quite healthy, actually, to enjoy something and point out the flaws! It's educational and, honestly, fun. (Hanging around with pure power metal diehards who refuse to discuss any potential criticisms in music we both like has made me hyper sensitive to this issue, truth be told.)

But it's still down to the songs, and not really the length of the album.  As I said - if the (generic) album had less songs but still had songs that you thought were too long, you'd have the same issue.  So the real question is - if the album was 75 minutes but was full of songs that you 100% like (either they're all short, or they're long but you like every second), what then?  Would the album still be too long?  Or would it be fine because you like everything about it?

I wasn't at all suggesting that you don't like long songs in general.  However, if the song is 10 minutes long and you want to listen to something else 5 minutes in, then yeah, I'd say you probably don't like that particular song that much.  Maybe you like the 1st 5 minutes, maybe you like parts of it, maybe you like it as you think it should be, but not necessarily the song as it actually is.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1017 on: August 03, 2018, 09:17:49 AM »
I can't give an answer to that because every album is different. I don't have rules :P

Just completely depends on how the music makes me feel. I didn't get any emotional response from this album so it's very easy for me to say it's too long.
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Offline Samsara

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1018 on: August 03, 2018, 09:23:07 AM »

I haven't even heard it yet, so we'll see if I like it or not. :)  (Will be listening to the album today).  I totally get that we all have different personal preferences, but it just seems odd to me.  Some of my favorite albums are close to the 80 minute mark (see: most DT albums) and some of my favorites are under an hour (Threshold and Riverside have some) and to me if I like the album then what does it matter?  I'm just curious, and you don't have to explain further if you don't want, but in general (not necessarily specific to this one cover song), if you like the album, why do you care if it's 75 minutes?

It's not a specific length. The record just feels a little long to me, that's all. I don't really have an explanation. It's just yes, I like the record, but it feels a little over-extended for me. And that's why I think the cover tune wasn't really needed (eliminating it might have taken that feeling of the record being a touch long, away).

Enjoy when you listen to it today! I'm not really sure where I'd rank it in their discography, but I think I dig it more than Art of Loss for sure.
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Offline Zook

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1019 on: August 03, 2018, 09:57:13 AM »
The new album flows way better than AoL. I relistened to it a couple days ago, and although I liked probably half the album, it felt like such a chore to get through. Long Night flies by. It also helps that I like all the songs this time around.

Tom sounds great too. I do try to imagine how Ray would sound, but Tom fits right in.

Offline nvandyk1

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1020 on: August 03, 2018, 10:51:47 AM »
For those saying the album is 75 minutes long, you're including 10 minutes of bonus tracks there. Want me to put those on a second CD, or would you rather not have them, or...? Not being snarky, by the way. Consider this an informal poll.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1021 on: August 03, 2018, 10:55:49 AM »
For those saying the album is 75 minutes long, you're including 10 minutes of bonus tracks there. Want me to put those on a second CD, or would you rather not have them, or...? Not being snarky, by the way. Consider this an informal poll.

Are you the actual guitarist for the band? That's cool. The bonus tracks are the least of my issues with 'too much' on the album, honestly (take them out and you still have 65 minutes of original material), so put 'em wherever. I personally like bonus stuff either coming at the very end of an album or on a separate disc but that's just me.
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Offline Lethean

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1022 on: August 03, 2018, 10:58:03 AM »
My opinion - just put them on one cd if it fits.  Why have 10 minutes on a second disc?  But then, I don't think 75 minutes is too long and if I don't want to hear the 2 bonus tracks, I can just stop the cd before it gets there.

Offline nvandyk1

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1023 on: August 03, 2018, 11:09:42 AM »
For those saying the album is 75 minutes long, you're including 10 minutes of bonus tracks there. Want me to put those on a second CD, or would you rather not have them, or...? Not being snarky, by the way. Consider this an informal poll.

Are you the actual guitarist for the band?

I am.

Quote
That's cool. The bonus tracks are the least of my issues with 'too much' on the album, honestly (take them out and you still have 65 minutes of original material), so put 'em wherever. I personally like bonus stuff either coming at the very end of an album or on a separate disc but that's just me.

They are the the very end of the album. The U2 track isn't a bonus; it is a continuation of our tradition of covering songs that one wouldn't expect a heavy metal band to cover. The Who's Love Reign o'er Me with John Bush on our last album is another example.

Offline me7

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1024 on: August 03, 2018, 11:14:56 AM »
For those saying the album is 75 minutes long, you're including 10 minutes of bonus tracks there. Want me to put those on a second CD, or would you rather not have them, or...? Not being snarky, by the way. Consider this an informal poll.

I would like them not on the main disc. Either on a second disc or as a free download.
I know that artists want to provide value to their fans, but outtakes and demos should not be served with the main dish. The album closer should be followed by silence.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1025 on: August 03, 2018, 11:15:19 AM »
That's cool then. I love covers of non metal songs by metal bands.  The U2 one is no exception.
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Offline nvandyk1

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1026 on: August 03, 2018, 12:14:28 PM »
For those saying the album is 75 minutes long, you're including 10 minutes of bonus tracks there. Want me to put those on a second CD, or would you rather not have them, or...? Not being snarky, by the way. Consider this an informal poll.

I would like them not on the main disc. Either on a second disc or as a free download.
I know that artists want to provide value to their fans, but outtakes and demos should not be served with the main dish. The album closer should be followed by silence.

1. They are neither outtakes nor demos.

2. Bear in mind there are industry and cultural dynamics (e.g., Japanese distributors want bonus tracks) to consider as well.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1027 on: August 03, 2018, 12:22:44 PM »
I have no issue with the cover song being on the main disc.  It's well done and I wouldn't want to deal with the hassle of trying to find the rare cover b-side if it wasn't on the album, nor would I rather it just never be done at all.  To me, I want everything my favorite bands create and if that means packing it onto an album, that's fine with me.  You know and understand that and you adjust accordingly, such as deleting it, or modifying the digital tag so its not associated with the album on your ipod, or stopping the CD when you want. 

2. Bear in mind there are industry and cultural dynamics (e.g., Japanese distributors want bonus tracks) to consider as well.

Also, does that mean there are more tracks out there for the Japanese that I need to hunt down?

Offline me7

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1028 on: August 03, 2018, 12:24:22 PM »
1. They are neither outtakes nor demos.

True,  but the two bonus tracks present here still fall in the same bucket IMO.

Offline Samsara

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1029 on: August 03, 2018, 12:32:52 PM »
For those saying the album is 75 minutes long, you're including 10 minutes of bonus tracks there. Want me to put those on a second CD, or would you rather not have them, or...? Not being snarky, by the way. Consider this an informal poll.

For me personally, I think the bonus/extra tracks should be on a second disc. I prefer "the record" to be, "the record." I generally now take albums that slap bonus tracks on the CD, and when I rip the disc, I label the bonus tracks as such, and as a separate album. For me, it's just about knowing what you as the artist consider "the record," and having that be one complete snapshot. But again, that's just me.

Wait a sec. I just looked up the tracklist. I think I have to correct myself. I have the standard edition - no bonus tracks. 66 minutes. I just assumed it was 75 minutes based on Kattoelox's comment, and the fact it seemed a little long. But my point stands though. Had the cover song (with I guess with whatever bonus tracks there are that I don't have) moved to a second disc, then the record as a whole would have been an hour long of completely original material, which I think (again, just my personal preference) would be better.

I love the cover of The Who's Love Reign o'er Me with John Bush. (John and Ray are two of my favorite singers.) But that's sort of a "bonus" of sorts as it is just a cover, as opposed to part of the creative process of new original songs, right, Nick?

p.s. what are the tracks from the new record I am missing? Are they available for purchase and download?
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Offline cramx3

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1030 on: August 03, 2018, 12:36:21 PM »
Why make a bonus disc for 2 songs if they can fit all on one disc?  That's a cost savings exercise and there's nothing stopping you from hitting stop when you've finished the proper album.  Would you really rather pay extra for a double disc just for this feature?  Like when DT has the 6 cover songs on the bonus disc for BCSL it made sense, there were enough songs to warrant it.  I don't think that's the case here.

Offline jingle.boy

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1031 on: August 03, 2018, 12:37:07 PM »
Why make a bonus disc for 2 songs if they can fit all on one disc?  That's a cost savings exercise and there's nothing stopping you from hitting stop when you've finished the proper album.  Would you really rather pay extra for a double disc just for this feature?  Like when DT has the 6 cover songs on the bonus disc for BCSL it made sense, there were enough songs to warrant it.  I don't think that's the case here.

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Offline Zook

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1032 on: August 03, 2018, 12:37:37 PM »
I listen to most of my music on my phone which means I rip the songs I want on to the computer then my phone, so having bonus tracks on the same disc as the album doesn't bother me.  Sometimes the bonus tracks are better than some of the main songs *cough*Taylor Swift 1989*cough*

If you have like 4 or five bonus tracks, sure, have a second disc, but if it's just 2 like with Long Night's, not only would it be a waste of a CD, but would probably cost more to produce.

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1033 on: August 03, 2018, 12:38:26 PM »
Why make a bonus disc for 2 songs if they can fit all on one disc?  That's a cost savings exercise and there's nothing stopping you from hitting stop when you've finished the proper album.  Would you really rather pay extra for a double disc just for this feature?  Like when DT has the 6 cover songs on the bonus disc for BCSL it made sense, there were enough songs to warrant it.  I don't think that's the case here.

We were asked for our preference, I gave mine. I totally understand it makes better financial sense to do it on one disc, and don't expect a second CD at all. :)
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Offline Nick

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1034 on: August 03, 2018, 01:05:01 PM »
I know I'm digging back into the conversation, but in regards to camp Alder and camp Englund:

Frankly I wouldn't want Ray to ever sing in Evergrey, and I wouldn't want Tom to sing in Fates Warning. They are both fantastic singers and both have great bodies of work to their credit. With Redemption neither is the original vocalist, although Ray had of course been in the mix almost the entire time at this point, even having guest vocals on the first album, so I think there is going to be some bias towards him.

All that said I think Ray is the better singer for Redemption's sound. I've been really enjoying the new album, and it's right up there with pretty much anything the group has done in my opinion, but I still feel it could be better with Ray. But Tom can be extremely compelling live, and now that I've sold my ProgPower tickets save Friday, I'm hoping he delivers a performance that changes my mind.
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Offline TAC

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1035 on: August 03, 2018, 02:31:21 PM »
I'd love if all the people bitching that Tom sounds too different from Ray could get on one side, and all the other people bitching that Tom doesn't sound different enough could get on the other, and then they could have some sort of death match and I could eat popcorn and just wait it out. :)

Hah!

I have never been a fan of Evergrey. Especially their singer. When I found out he'd be joining Redemption, I was bummed. Not so much that Ray was leaving. Like I also said a few days ago, I actually welcomed the change. Ray could move the emotonal needle of the lyrics for sure, but I have always thought Redemption could use a heavier vocalist. I have often felt that in a way, Ray kind of nuetered the music, if that makes sense. And I love Ray, and I love Redemption, but truth be told, I never thought it was a great fit to begin with.

So for me, it's not that it's not Ray.

My first listen to the album, I was amazed. I enjoyed the heavier vocals. But my second listen, I think I got too negative. Finished my third listen and I think I'll be ok. ;D

Now again, I don't love the vocals. But I really like what Tom does in the title track. I wish he did more of that throughout the album.




Nick..I have a couple of questions...
1. You mentioned John Bush, who I love. How did he become involved with The Who cover?

2. Chris Quiarte is amazing. And I don't mean maybe. What's his background? What does he do during Redemption's down time?

Thank you!
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Offline Lethean

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1036 on: August 03, 2018, 03:06:25 PM »
Finished my first listen, and will need more before I can share that many thoughts on the album.  However:
2. Chris Quiarte is amazing. And I don't mean maybe.

I like the New Year's Day cover, and Tom's singing on it.  There were parts I thought that were missing Ray, but it's to be expected, and I imagine a lot of that will change as I listen more.

Offline The Walrus

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1037 on: August 04, 2018, 08:37:07 AM »
Just wrapped my second listen. It's growing on me. My first impression was that a lot of songs sound the same, but even on the second listen I'm picking up a lot of little things. Really enjoying Someone Else's Problem, And Yet, Indulge In Color, and Noonday Devil.
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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1038 on: August 05, 2018, 04:58:58 AM »
This is probably a stupid question for Nick, or anyone that can answer I guess.  I don't buy many cd's anymore and when I do I usually pick up what I can get locally instore.  This new album is basically nowhere to be found for me in Australia, so where is the best place to purchase from that would be the most benefit for you Nick?  bandcamp?  Metalblade?  I don't mind paying a bit extra if it's more benefit to you Nick.  Mainly because you talking with us is so cool and appreciated.
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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1040 on: August 05, 2018, 05:12:23 AM »
https://www.utopia.com.au/redemption-long-nights-journey-into-day-cd-new.html

Didn't even think to check Utopia for some reason.  Man, I wish there were stores like this in Brisbane.  If there is a source that is more benefit to Nick, I'll go with that, but this seems like the best option within Aus.  Thanks Brent.
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Offline MinistroRaven

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1041 on: August 09, 2018, 09:12:01 AM »


Redemption recently released their new album, Long Night's Journey Into Day, via Metal Blade Records; for their efforts, the band has now entered the international charts! See below for all positions:
#17 Current Hard Music Albums (USA)
#19 Top New Artist Albums (USA)
#42 Record Label Independent Current Albums (USA)
#109 Top New Artist Albums Consumption (USA)
#174 Top Current Albums (USA)
#176 Current Digital Albums (USA)
#69 Media Control Top 100 (Germany)
#83 Hard Music Charts (Canada)

Offline kaos2900

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1042 on: August 09, 2018, 09:22:46 AM »
In regards to the vocalist change, the interesting thing for me is that there are moments where I really like Tom and feel like he was the right choice but the majority of the time I feel like he's too much in the middle in both emotion and range. I've never heard Evergrey so I'm not sure what he sounds like there but there are glimpses of greatness just not enough for my liking. Again, musically I think this is the strongest release since Snowfall.

Offline bosk1

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1043 on: August 14, 2018, 02:12:47 PM »
Can't stop listening to this album.  Every single song has so much that I like about it.  This is just such a complete album.
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Offline Lethean

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1044 on: August 14, 2018, 08:26:51 PM »
I think it's a really strong album.  I'd still like Tom to let loose more, but I'm still getting used to it and am still able to enjoy the album.

Also, I neither think it's too long nor do I think the New Year's Day cover should have been left off.  :)  That's a great cover and Tom sounds awesome on it.

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1045 on: August 14, 2018, 08:29:40 PM »
I didn't like the cover at first, but I do now. The only part I don't like very much is Tom's delivery of the first two lines. After that everything is great.

Offline Lethean

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1046 on: August 14, 2018, 08:35:21 PM »
I didn't like the cover at first, but I do now. The only part I don't like very much is Tom's delivery of the first two lines. After that everything is great.

I get that - the first couple lines take a little getting used to, but I'm good with them.  I think he sounds really cool on the song though. 

Offline TAC

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1047 on: August 14, 2018, 10:11:19 PM »
Can't stop listening to this album.  Every single song has so much that I like about it.  This is just such a complete album.

YES!! I listened to it on the plane out here. Awesome album.
would have thought the same thing but seeing the OP was TAC i immediately thought Maiden or DT related
Winger Theater Forums........or WTF.  ;D
TAC got a higher score than me in the electronic round? Honestly, can I just drop out now? :lol

Offline me7

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1048 on: August 15, 2018, 07:57:35 AM »
After several spins, I feel confident in claiming that LNJIT is impressively consistent, maybe Redemption's most consistent album since Fullness of Time.

Offline cramx3

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Re: The official Redemption thread v. Long Night's Journey Into Day - July 27th
« Reply #1049 on: August 15, 2018, 08:07:53 AM »
Yea, definitely a solid and consistent album.  My only problem is maybe it's too consistent, as in there's not a lot of diversity of sound here.  But they kind of nail it out of the park in terms of being a really great prog metal album, I can't really knock it for not diversifying if they are going be really good and consistent at whats working here.  I kind of feel like the only song that does sway a bit off that path is the cover song, which is really well done and I absolutely love it.  I think Tom sounds great on that one as well.  I have no issues with his vocals at all on this album.  I kind of hope they play the whole thing at Prog Power like Angra is doing with their latest release, but being a filming and debuting the new singer, I can understand why they would want to diversify the set more than just the album.  :metal