Patriot Act To Be Reauthorized?

[Ħ]

Super Dude, could you explain your example?  I don't really get it.

Orcus, I don't know if that's the best example, because that's something that directly affects your life--as you said, it wastes your time.  But if the government checks up on your phone calls it honestly doesn't affect who you call, what you talk about, waste your time, or anything else.

[Super Dude]

But...it does.  I can't remember who said it but it's a perfect example of my own discomfort with the legislation: even when one has nothing to hide from the gov't, personal calls to friends and family might be private; I don't want someone listening in on my private conversations.  It's like if you're in a restaurant and you're talking to your date sitting across from you and every time you talk you notice some moron poking his head over and listening to your conversation.  You may not be saying anything particularly scandalous, much less about him, but do you want him listening in?

[orcus116]

Orcus, I don't know if that's the best example, because that's something that directly affects your life--as you said, it wastes your time.  But if the government checks up on your phone calls it honestly doesn't affect who you call, what you talk about, waste your time, or anything else.

You clearly missed the point. They implemented all these new security features and nothing changed. It's pretty much the same as this country but on a smaller scale. The smartest ones will still find ways to attack (9/11) and the others will simply fail regardless of US interference (Times Square bomber guy).

[Ħ]

Orcus, I don't know if that's the best example, because that's something that directly affects your life--as you said, it wastes your time.  But if the government checks up on your phone calls it honestly doesn't affect who you call, what you talk about, waste your time, or anything else.

You clearly missed the point. They implemented all these new security features and nothing changed. It's pretty much the same as this country but on a smaller scale. The smartest ones will still find ways to attack (9/11) and the others will simply fail regardless of US interference (Times Square bomber guy).

Oh ok.  Well, you don't know if things would have been different if the security measures weren't there.  You could say the same thing about me, I concede that.  But my whole position stands on the idea that we should rather be too careful than too...I dunno...civil-rights friendly.

[Ħ]

But...it does.  I can't remember who said it but it's a perfect example of my own discomfort with the legislation: even when one has nothing to hide from the gov't, personal calls to friends and family might be private; I don't want someone listening in on my private conversations.  It's like if you're in a restaurant and you're talking to your date sitting across from you and every time you talk you notice some moron poking his head over and listening to your conversation.  You may not be saying anything particularly scandalous, much less about him, but do you want him listening in?

No, I literally don't understand your example about the video games.  Could you break it down for me?

And...to give a counter example, I see it as very similar to the policy that cigarrette or alcohol vendors have to check ID.  Yeah it's a time waster, and kids are gonna find ways around it, but you do it just because.

[j]

SD was pointing out another scenario where the innocent are infringed upon because of the supposed preventative policy.  The anti-piracy regulations unnecessarily encumber people who download games (or whatever) legally even though their intent was to deter pirates, just as some provisions of the Patriot Act unnecessarily encumber you and I even though their intent was to deter terrorists.

Either way, it comes down to two things: 1) whether or not you think the legislation actually provides significant additional protection, and if so, 2) how much will you allow your rights to be taken away in the name of what you perceive is protecting you.

-J

[El Barto]

To expand on SD's example a bit, at home I use a pirated version of a popular operating system.  I personally think that they built a fine operating system that's worth every bit of the $150(??) they charge for an OEM version.  However, the silliness they incorporate into the thing to ostensibly prevent people from pirating it make the authentic version completely unacceptable for my purposes.  I didn't steel the thing so I wouldn't have to pay for it.  I stole the thing because it's the only way to get it with all of the bullshit removed from it.  They're punishing the legal users and doing nothing to deter pirates.

SD is making the same point about the USA PATRIOT act which doesn't do much to prevent real terrorists, but treats the rest of us like we're all criminals. 

Either way, it comes down to two things: 1) whether or not you think the legislation actually provides significant additional protection, and if so, 2) how much will you allow your rights to be taken away in the name of what you perceive is protecting you.

-J

I would look at it in different terms.  Who do you fear more, the terrorists or the police?

[Ħ]

I would look at it in different terms.  Who do you fear more, the terrorists or the police?

...the terrorists.

[El Barto]

Terrorists have a miserable track record.  Frankly, their batting average is pathetic.  They only pulled of 9/11 due to our government's extraordinary incompetence (which was quite possibly intentional).  The justice system on the other hand will steamroll anything that gets in it's way.  In 40 years, I've never had any issues with terrorists, but I've damn sure had some bad experiences with asshole cops.  The last thing I want to see is for it to broaden it's net and see more people get caught up in more bullshit.

I will point out that the failure of our government to prevent 9/11 had nothing to do with lacking the provisions of the USA PATRIOT act.  They had all the pieces of the puzzle and did nothing to put them together.  It baffles me why people think that what's needed is more intrusion into our lives by the same people who are so fucked up they can't handle what information they do have. 

[Chino]

Barton, you always put what I am thinking into words, anecdotes a much better job of it than I would. I wish to thank you.

[Super Dude]

Terrorists have a miserable track record.  Frankly, their batting average is pathetic.  They only pulled of 9/11 due to our government's extraordinary incompetence (which was quite possibly intentional).  The justice system on the other hand will steamroll anything that gets in it's way.  In 40 years, I've never had any issues with terrorists, but I've damn sure had some bad experiences with asshole cops.  The last thing I want to see is for it to broaden it's net and see more people get caught up in more bullshit.

I will point out that the failure of our government to prevent 9/11 had nothing to do with lacking the provisions of the USA PATRIOT act.  They had all the pieces of the puzzle and did nothing to put them together.  It baffles me why people think that what's needed is more intrusion into our lives by the same people who are so fucked up they can't handle what information they do have.  

I'm afraid I have to disagree with that one.  Otherwise this.

Barto, are you a libertarian?

[j]

Either way, it comes down to two things: 1) whether or not you think the legislation actually provides significant additional protection, and if so, 2) how much will you allow your rights to be taken away in the name of what you perceive is protecting you.

-J

I would look at it in different terms.  Who do you fear more, the terrorists or the police?

Actually yeah, that's another consideration.

-J

[Super Dude]

I dunno, I mean I personally trust the police, but it is true that the terrorists' track record has been less than stellar anyway...

[El Barto]

I dunno, I mean I personally trust the police, but it is true that the terrorists' track record has been less than stellar anyway...

Trusting the police is one thing (though I certainly wouldn't).  Trusting a massive law enforcement machine is a different story altogether.  And in this case, we're talking about dozens of different machines that can act in concert or individually.  I really feel like we've moved from the military-industrial complex to a commercial law enforcement complex that's far more dangerous. 

[Ħ]

I dunno, I mean I personally trust the police, but it is true that the terrorists' track record has been less than stellar anyway...

Although, all it takes is one crack in security...a single guy could do tons of damage.

[7StringedBeast]

I dunno, I mean I personally trust the police, but it is true that the terrorists' track record has been less than stellar anyway...

Although, all it takes is one crack in security...a single guy could do tons of damage.

They can do this at any time any place.  Do you really think you are safe?  I ride the NYC subway every day.  Nothing is stopping someone from blowing themselves up on it.  Nothing.

[Super Dude]

I dunno, I mean I personally trust the police, but it is true that the terrorists' track record has been less than stellar anyway...

Trusting the police is one thing (though I certainly wouldn't).  Trusting a massive law enforcement machine is a different story altogether.  And in this case, we're talking about dozens of different machines that can act in concert or individually.  I really feel like we've moved from the military-industrial complex to a commercial law enforcement complex that's far more dangerous. 

Again, I'll just agree to disagree.

[orcus116]

I dunno, I mean I personally trust the police, but it is true that the terrorists' track record has been less than stellar anyway...

Although, all it takes is one crack in security...a single guy could do tons of damage.

They can do this at any time any place.  Do you really think you are safe?  I ride the NYC subway every day.  Nothing is stopping someone from blowing themselves up on it.  Nothing.

Seriously. All it takes is one guy working by himself in his apartment with no outside contact.

[Ħ]

I dunno, I mean I personally trust the police, but it is true that the terrorists' track record has been less than stellar anyway...

Although, all it takes is one crack in security...a single guy could do tons of damage.

They can do this at any time any place.  Do you really think you are safe?  I ride the NYC subway every day.  Nothing is stopping someone from blowing themselves up on it.  Nothing.

Seriously. All it takes is one guy working by himself in his apartment with no outside contact.

Your logic is making me all the more inclined for a police state.

Seriously, don't you concede heightened security measures decrease the probability of an act of terrorism?

[GuineaPig]

It's pretty easy to come up with an effective idea for a terrorist attack.  Increased security measures don't touch the easy availability of powerful weapons available to Joe Q. Public.

[orcus116]

Not at all. The dumb terrorists will make mistakes and the really smart ones will find new ways around any obstacles.

[Ħ]

So...at least we might catch the dumb terrorists before they cause any damage right?  Sure we still suffer from the smart ones, but still...

[GuineaPig]

Yeah, but dumb terrorists get caught because they order 500 bottles of hydrogen peroxide from a hardware store, not because someone was randomly listening in on their phone calls.

[Ħ]

Do you know that?

[7StringedBeast]

The point is, there is no exceptional imminent danger to justify tapping into anyone's lines without a warrant.  If there is suspicion get a warrant.  It's part of the Constitution.  We have the right against illegal search and seizures.  

Lately, I've felt like the whole terrorist thing has been way overplayed.  It's been almost 10 years since 9/11 and shit has happened since.  I doubt it has to do with great counter terrorism measures.  

What I hope with all these middle east uprisings, is that times are changing and the people of the middle east are no longer interested in violence.  They are finding a voice, and seeing they can make change without people blowing each other up.  All this motivation on the people of the middle east's part could mean eventual peace between the US and that part of the world.  I think all this stuff that has been happening is the best counter terrorism we could ever have hoped for.

[Super Dude]

Well actually if the Muslim Brotherhood has their way and takes over Egypt, that area of the Middle East will be even more radical.

[7StringedBeast]

Well actually if the Muslim Brotherhood has their way and takes over Egypt, that area of the Middle East will be even more radical.

I can't tell if you are being serious or not.

[Super Dude]

No, I am.  Unless I'm totally out of the loop and the Muslim Brotherhood has somehow been barred from any prospective new Egyptian gov't.  That would give me reason to worry.

[7StringedBeast]

Well according to Metty in the Egyptian thread, the Muslim Brotherhood is a moderate group in Egypt.  And they already stated that they aren't seeking power in Egypt.

[Super Dude]

So I stand corrected, my bad.

[El Barto]

Our Director of National Intelligence said the other day that the Muslim Brotherhood was actually fairly moderate and reasonable.  The Obama administration, doing exactly what the Bush administration used to do, corrected him and said that what he actually meant to say was that they were merely behaving in a moderate way to appear more reasonable, but that they're really pretty evil.  It's shit like this that makes me continually point out that Obama is no different than his predecessor. 

Anyhoo, I really don't care what they are.  If they're who the Egyptians want to run the show, more power to them.  Americans don't seem to recognize the interfering in the affairs of other in trying to secure our interests is exactly what empowers those others to be problematic towards us. 

[7StringedBeast]

Our Director of National Intelligence said the other day that the Muslim Brotherhood was actually fairly moderate and reasonable.  The Obama administration, doing exactly what the Bush administration used to do, corrected him and said that what he actually meant to say was that they were merely behaving in a moderate way to appear more reasonable, but that they're really pretty evil.  It's shit like this that makes me continually point out that Obama is no different than his predecessor. 

Anyhoo, I really don't care what they are.  If they're who the Egyptians want to run the show, more power to them.  Americans don't seem to recognize the interfering in the affairs of other in trying to secure our interests is exactly what empowers those others to be problematic towards us. 

Bingo.  Let them have what they want.  If it starts to be a problem for the US.  We can deal with it when it is an actual problem and not a projection of a possible problem.

[unklejman]

Meanwhile the provisions passed the house for extension last night.

Also, apparently Sen. Rand Paul stopped a 3 year extension of it last night that the senate tried to pass with unanimous consent.

[Super Dude]

So was the House extension also for 3 years?

[unklejman]

Negative, the house version, which is now passed by the Senate as well is for 3 months.