Author Topic: "Multi-culturism has failed"  (Read 5258 times)

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Offline rumborak

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"Multi-culturism has failed"
« on: February 05, 2011, 02:12:19 PM »
A speech that UK PM James Cameron gave:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-12371994

Quote
"We have failed to provide a vision of society to which they feel they want to belong. We have even tolerated these segregated communities behaving in ways that run counter to our values."

Building a stronger sense of national and local identity holds "the key to achieving true cohesion" by allowing people to say "I am a Muslim, I am a Hindu, I am a Christian, but I am a Londoner... too", he said.

Security minister Baroness Neville-Jones said when Mr Cameron expressed his opposition to extremism, he meant all forms, not just Islamist extremism.

"There's a widespread feeling in the country that we're less united behind values than we need to be," she told Today.

Angela Merkel held a similar speech not so long ago.

What I'm not so interested in is the extremism angle, but rather the whole notion that was kinda pushed in the 70s that a multi-cultural society is almost an ideal society.
Now, at least from my personal experience, this runs very counter to the tribe mentality of humans. We like to be amongst ourselves, and people go to great lengths to ensure that. I know the US is in this regard the "big experiment", and while it works in some cases, there's also rampant ghettoization (e.g. Chinatowns) and subcultures going on.

Thoughts on this?

rumborak
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Offline jsem

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2011, 02:33:54 PM »
part of me wants to say: let people move freely, live where they want.. etc

That does create problems though. In sweden for example, a lot of immigrants can't get integrated because they don't learn swedish very well. That may be because the immigrants often live in the same neighborhoods and don't interact with too many ethnic swedes.

Enough rambling..... I still think immigration is important. Because if there is none, there is always inbreeding.. and we know what that leads to.

Offline j

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #2 on: February 05, 2011, 02:43:00 PM »
I think people who champion "striving" for diversity or "multi-culturalism" have already missed the point.

That said, the balance between pride in individuality and complete embracing of others' is a delicate one, and often hard or impossible to achieve.  It can't be done on a large scale, I don't think.  It comes down to individuals, and whether or not they can rise above their xenophobic natures.

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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #3 on: February 05, 2011, 02:44:51 PM »
I think from a purely cultural standpoint, total multiculturalism is impossible.  I know from my own experience and from studying multinational and multicultural societies that this is in part where fundamentalism comes from: even if the host country accepts the immigrating culture with open arms and they are allowed to fully integrate into a society, there will exist an element of that population that is less assimilated or not assimilated at all, and they will decry and make a crusade of returning the immigrants' original culture to its "purest" non-assimilated form.  That, for example, is why American Jews are so obsessed with marrying their children to other Jews.

And that's if we're assuming the host country is totally cool with the waves of immigration from another culture.
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Offline El Barto

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #4 on: February 05, 2011, 02:56:19 PM »
Assimilation happens very, very slowly.  Over the course of many generations slowly.  It has to happen with the youth.  While there are always new members showing up of a given culture, old, obstinate and unwilling to change,  there will be more youngsters going to the schools, making friends, and learning the language of their new society.  Trying to force the old folks to assimilate will only harden them to maintain their original culture.  That's why I think banning burqas and such is stupid policy.  Let societies naturally gravitate towards the better values, which by the way is a two way street. 
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Offline XJDenton

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #5 on: February 05, 2011, 03:03:08 PM »
Multi-culturism is not the same as culture-homogenisation.
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Offline Super Dude

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #6 on: February 05, 2011, 03:07:04 PM »
Assimilation happens very, very slowly.  Over the course of many generations slowly.  It has to happen with the youth.  While there are always new members showing up of a given culture, old, obstinate and unwilling to change,  there will be more youngsters going to the schools, making friends, and learning the language of their new society.  Trying to force the old folks to assimilate will only harden them to maintain their original culture.  That's why I think banning burqas and such is stupid policy.  Let societies naturally gravitate towards the better values, which by the way is a two way street.  

Problem is they don't want their youngsters assimilating either, and will be just as active in trying to stop change in the newer generations.  I'm not saying I have a solution; it's just useless to say that the fix is just not trying to assimilate the older generations.
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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #7 on: February 05, 2011, 03:23:33 PM »
I think it's also a question of momentum; if you let a steady but low level of people in, they are forced to identify themselves with the new culture. If you let too many people in too fast, there will be the tipping point where the culture will separate itself from the main culture and kinda create a "protective shield" around itself.
I agree however also with what Barto says; it's often a question of young vs. old, where the young ones will be more willing to create a different amalgam of the two cultures. Problematic however is when the different cultures also correlate to different social status (Blacks in the US, Turks in Germany etc.), because then you have once again a separating element that will likely create subculture that then no longer merges with the main culture.

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Offline William Wallace

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #8 on: February 05, 2011, 05:50:07 PM »

Now, at least from my personal experience, this runs very counter to the tribe mentality of humans. We like to be amongst ourselves, and people go to great lengths to ensure that. I know the US is in this regard the "big experiment", and while it works in some cases, there's also rampant ghettoization (e.g. Chinatowns) and subcultures going on.

Thoughts on this?

rumborak

I personally have no problem with "ghettoization." If you've ever been to San Francisco, New York or any big city, you know that there's dozens of neighborhoods divided up along cultural lines. And it's not necessarily a means of segregation. It may have been originally for the reason you mentioned above. But that's one of the attractions of cities today - experiencing different cultures without going to China, or wherever.

And the idea of "national unity" and "solidarity" as espoused by politicians rubs me the wrong way. If people want to set up little communities within a country, so what? People organize into like-minded circles in every segment of society. It's really only a point of discussion when foreigners do it. Why? As long as they obey the law, who loses?

Offline XJDenton

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #9 on: February 05, 2011, 06:01:18 PM »

Now, at least from my personal experience, this runs very counter to the tribe mentality of humans. We like to be amongst ourselves, and people go to great lengths to ensure that. I know the US is in this regard the "big experiment", and while it works in some cases, there's also rampant ghettoization (e.g. Chinatowns) and subcultures going on.

Thoughts on this?

rumborak

I personally have no problem with "ghettoization." If you've ever been to San Francisco, New York or any big city, you know that there's dozens of neighborhoods divided up along cultural lines. And it's not necessarily a means of segregation. It may have been originally for the reason you mentioned above. But that's one of the attractions of cities today - experiencing different cultures without going to China, or wherever.

And the idea of "national unity" and "solidarity" as espoused by politicians rubs me the wrong way. If people want to set up little communities within a country, so what? People organize into like-minded circles in every segment of society. It's really only a point of discussion when foreigners do it. Why? As long as they obey the law, who loses?

I agree. Although rumborak has a good point that its not necessarily driven by choice but by economic factors.
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Offline PowerSlave

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2011, 07:50:46 PM »
there is always inbreeding.. and we know what that leads to.

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2011, 08:11:57 PM »
I don't see what the big deal is, though I've always been in extremely diverse environments. I want to be friends with the best people, I don't really care where they're from.

Yesterday I went hiking with 8 different people from 8 different countries. It was awesome. Integration is great, as long as people can still retain their own cultural identity.
« Last Edit: February 05, 2011, 09:50:03 PM by Perpetual Change »

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2011, 09:44:01 PM »
 8 different counties? Dude, that's pushing it. That's almost dare I say, state border!

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Offline rumborak

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2011, 09:46:52 PM »

Now, at least from my personal experience, this runs very counter to the tribe mentality of humans. We like to be amongst ourselves, and people go to great lengths to ensure that. I know the US is in this regard the "big experiment", and while it works in some cases, there's also rampant ghettoization (e.g. Chinatowns) and subcultures going on.

Thoughts on this?

rumborak

I personally have no problem with "ghettoization." If you've ever been to San Francisco, New York or any big city, you know that there's dozens of neighborhoods divided up along cultural lines. And it's not necessarily a means of segregation. It may have been originally for the reason you mentioned above. But that's one of the attractions of cities today - experiencing different cultures without going to China, or wherever.

And the idea of "national unity" and "solidarity" as espoused by politicians rubs me the wrong way. If people want to set up little communities within a country, so what? People organize into like-minded circles in every segment of society. It's really only a point of discussion when foreigners do it. Why? As long as they obey the law, who loses?

WW, you know as much as everybody else that ghettos aren't all the happy cultural centers of tourist enjoyment. Once people have clearly defined borders, there's the "us against them" mentality setting in. And in extreme cases there's essentially a separate jurisdiction in those areas that works along family or clan lines. I can definitely say that Boston Chinatown is not a place you should find yourself in after midnight.

rumborak
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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2011, 09:50:11 PM »
8 different counties? Dude, that's pushing it. That's almost dare I say, state border!

rumborak

What?

Offline rumborak

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #15 on: February 05, 2011, 09:53:05 PM »
8 different counties? Dude, that's pushing it. That's almost dare I say, state border!

rumborak

What?

You typed "counties", not "countries" :lol

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #16 on: February 05, 2011, 09:54:03 PM »
I don't know what you're talking about!

Offline juice

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #17 on: February 05, 2011, 11:36:42 PM »
He thinks that you typed counties instead of countries and he's saying that different counties doesn't really count to being very diverse if I'm think correctly?

Offline j

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #18 on: February 06, 2011, 12:45:35 AM »
Yeah, but PC edited his post and is now feigning ignorance.  Try to keep up! :biggrin:

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Offline Perpetual Change

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #19 on: February 06, 2011, 12:48:14 AM »
We need to get some sarcasm detectors in this thread.

Offline William Wallace

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #20 on: February 06, 2011, 10:03:20 PM »

Now, at least from my personal experience, this runs very counter to the tribe mentality of humans. We like to be amongst ourselves, and people go to great lengths to ensure that. I know the US is in this regard the "big experiment", and while it works in some cases, there's also rampant ghettoization (e.g. Chinatowns) and subcultures going on.

Thoughts on this?

rumborak

I personally have no problem with "ghettoization." If you've ever been to San Francisco, New York or any big city, you know that there's dozens of neighborhoods divided up along cultural lines. And it's not necessarily a means of segregation. It may have been originally for the reason you mentioned above. But that's one of the attractions of cities today - experiencing different cultures without going to China, or wherever.

And the idea of "national unity" and "solidarity" as espoused by politicians rubs me the wrong way. If people want to set up little communities within a country, so what? People organize into like-minded circles in every segment of society. It's really only a point of discussion when foreigners do it. Why? As long as they obey the law, who loses?

WW, you know as much as everybody else that ghettos aren't all the happy cultural centers of tourist enjoyment. Once people have clearly defined borders, there's the "us against them" mentality setting in. And in extreme cases there's essentially a separate jurisdiction in those areas that works along family or clan lines. I can definitely say that Boston Chinatown is not a place you should find yourself in after midnight.

rumborak
I think that's true to some extent. But one of the benefits of liberalizing society is acceptance of difference cultures. There are still exceptions, sure. Generally, though, I think the trend is one of tolerance of others' cultures while simultaneously maintaining your own national/ethnic identity. And I'm not sure that forcibly (not sure how else you'd do it) breaking up ethnic neighborhoods would reduce crime. Really, there are few places I want to be in a big city after midnight.

Offline Quadrochosis

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #21 on: February 08, 2011, 03:09:48 PM »
One of my professor was talking about this the other day.

"Multiculturism is here, and is now. We've seen the results: McDonalds. Everybody wants a Big Mac, no matter the skin color."
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Offline Chino

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #22 on: February 08, 2011, 03:21:05 PM »
I think multi-culturalism has been a complete success in the states. Granted there is still racism, stereotyping, religious diversity, and just plain ignorance. But, the important thing is that we have taken a step in the right direction. Just looking at myself, I have for more accepting of people of all cultures than I was 7 or 8 years ago. I think the majority of that was becoming free thinking, getting out of catholic schools, and just growing up in a society where you need tovlearn to be tolerant. I think within the next few generation we will see much less diversity. Granted people will still look and behave differently, but in terms of functioning in society, I think we will all be one big happy family... for the most part.

Offline AndyDT

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #23 on: February 09, 2011, 03:38:45 AM »
One of my professor was talking about this the other day.

"Multiculturism is here, and is now. We've seen the results: McDonalds. Everybody wants a Big Mac, no matter the skin color."
That's not multiculturalism to my understanding of the term.

Offline erik16

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #24 on: February 09, 2011, 03:53:17 AM »
That is globalisation/Mcdonaldisation

Offline 7StringedBeast

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #25 on: February 09, 2011, 10:22:08 AM »
I hate when people say we have to "tolerate" or be "tolerant" of other cultures.  When you tolerate something it means you wish it wasn't their bothering you.  It's such a negative term.  Accepting or embracing would be better terminology.  I think what has made America a great place is that people would bring their culture to America and be Americans with a different kind of background.  It is important that people coming to the country get in with the American culture and not just the culture from where they came from.

The biggest issue for me is that people moving to America should speak English.  What better way to integrate yourself into society than to actually be able to communicate with everyone around you.  People will look down at people who can't speak english.  If you can't express yourself to others, they just kind of see you as dumb or somehow less human in a way.  It is a huge divider.
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Offline AndyDT

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2011, 04:18:46 AM »
Quote
You must feel perfect tolerance for all, and a hearty interest in the beliefs of those of another religion, just as much as in your own. For their religion is a path to the higher, just as yours is. And to help all, you must understand all.

But in order to gain this perfect tolerance, you must yourself first be free from bigotry and superstition. You must learn that no ceremonies are necessary; else you will think yourself somehow better than those who do not perform them. Yet you must not condemn others who still cling to ceremonies. Let them do as they will; only they must not interfere with you who know the truth- they must not try to force upon you that which you have outgrown. Make allowance for everything; be kindly towards everything.

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Offline Progmetty

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #27 on: February 13, 2011, 01:03:14 AM »
In UAE (United Arab Emirates) there's a total of 80% of the population that is foreign, from Africa there's Egyptians, Kenyans, Sudanese, Somalians, Nigerians, Libyans, Algerians, South Africans, Tunisians and Mauritanians.
From Asia there's an Indian and Pakistani domination, then Chinese, Vietnamese, Philippians, Syrians, Lebanese, Palestinians, Jordanians and Iraqis.
From Europe there's a lot of Scotsmen and Brits, then Romanian and Dutch here and there.
Then there's a whole bunch of Americans and Canadians.
The weird thing I noticed is that people from countries closer to each other in distance tend to not make friends, for example Canadians and Americans, Indians, Bangladeshis and Pakistanis, Chinese and Vietnamese, Syrians and Lebanese, and Brits and Scotsmen (even though a Scotsman told me that's pretty normal).
I dunno if this is relevant but I just wanted to share a little about the place where I work, I have all these nationalities here where I work, we get along nicely but the language and cultural barriers create a thick wall of bullet proof glass that limits "getting along" to work and necessary interactions only for the most part.
In Texas where I moved and live for almost four years now; it has annoyed me a great deal at first that there's a lot of Mexicans that don't speak English and don't make an effort to learn, before I learned more about internal political correctness in the U.S I once asked a Mexican guy at a party about why that happens and he told me "To preserve our heritage" and I asked him "Wouldn't the best way to preserve your heritage be that you stay in Mexico?! you know where it's normal to speak Spanish!!", my wife poked me to shut up, I think you're defying the courtesy of the country that took you in and let you settle here, obviously it's treating you much better than your country of origin or you wouldn't have came, I'm Egyptian and my mother tongue is Arabic, I won't forget my identity, but I feel I have been and still am making effort to adapt and mingle in the American culture where I live and have friends, I don't and shouldn't expect the opposite, I just find it rude really.
I've recently met a nice man who came to do some work on the AC at my step mother's house and he told me he's from some town south of Texas that only speaks Spanish, his reasoning is that because most of the population is Spanish so why learn English, I asked if the traffic signs are in Spanish too he said both languages but all of the government facilities and paperwork has to be in English, it occurred to me that the only instance I would have imagined a population that speaks a language that has to deal with a government that speaks another is at an occupied territory.
Is it wrong to blame them from not making the effort to speak English and understand the culture?
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 01:54:55 AM by metty »
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline j

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #28 on: February 13, 2011, 01:23:14 AM »
Nah metty, I know what you mean (I live in Texas too) and I agree in principle.  But IMO there are a couple of major things to consider on the other side of the coin.  First, learning a second language is not a trivial undertaking.  I'd imagine some people don't have the capacity for it, or are far too busy working to feed their family and get by, or any number of reasons.

Also, it's not easy to live here when you don't speak or read English.  There's a natural incentive in place to learn the language, simply because it's inconvenient not to know it.  And not only that, it's a massive advantage in terms of employment opportunities to be bilingual.  Are there some who are just obstinately refusing to make the effort?  Absolutely, but I don't think it's a major problem as long as the government isn't bending over backward to enable that mindset.

What pisses me off is when the "racist" label is used to describe legislation that would deny providing certain documents/services in Spanish, or have anything to do with border security, etc.  I'm not on board with all of it, but for Christ's sake that stuff has nothing to do with "race".

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Offline Progmetty

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2011, 01:58:09 AM »
Yeah, it's one thing you can't blame conservatives for being bitchy about.
« Last Edit: February 13, 2011, 02:34:13 AM by metty »
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.

Offline AndyDT

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #30 on: February 13, 2011, 04:23:19 AM »

From Europe there's a lot of Scotsmen and Brits
Scotsmen are Brits and always have been.

Offline AndyDT

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #31 on: February 13, 2011, 04:25:26 AM »
James Cameron gave:
Terminate the mistake please.

Offline AcidLameLTE

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2011, 04:36:55 AM »

From Europe there's a lot of Scotsmen and Brits
Scotsmen are Brits and always have been.
You would be surprised at how many people don't know that Scotland is part of Britain/the UK.

Offline Progmetty

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Re: "Multi-culturism has failed"
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2011, 05:28:13 AM »
I know it is but most of the Scotsmen I met don't say "I'm from the UK", they say Scotland, I've also noticed a lot of difference in nature and habits, let alone the accent of course, with all due respect to the Tommies we have here; Scotsmen are much warmer and easier to approach to my experience.
Got a nice Scotsman over here now working with me as 2nd Mud Engineer and he has made friends with everyone on the rig site in two days, he has told me he has been tuning down his accent a lot.
I wouldn't want somebody with 18 kids to mow my damn lawn, based on a longstanding bias I have against crazy fucks.