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The Israel Discussion Thread

Started by Super Dude, February 02, 2011, 07:27:08 AM

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zerogravityfat

Egypt just OKd the crossing of Iranian warships from the Suez channel, enjoy your limited days Israel.  :|

Progmetty

Quote from: zerogravityfat on February 18, 2011, 12:35:25 PM
Egypt just OKd the crossing of Iranian warships from the Suez channel, enjoy your limited days Israel.  :|

I've been following this news all day, according to different Egyptian news sites they haven't let them through yet and the army is discussing it, Iran is testing us to know what's new, they're offering a lot of money, Egyptian military has boarded the ships to confirm there are no weapons on it and it's not armed.. can a warship not be armed?
Even though this is not our new government and what happens now will not determine the future of our foreign relations; I hope the army makes the right choice of not letting them through to show good intentions.

Super Dude

Yeah, I'm praying this goes well. :(

For reference, I never pray.

ack44


Progmetty

Did you guys know President Carter was getting sued over his Palestine book?
https://voices.washingtonpost.com/political-bookworm/2011/02/president_carter_named_in_5_mi.html
I haven't read the book but the name-calling, claims of lying and the always laughable "pro-terrorists" is a bit too much for a man like this, he conducted the Camp David negotiations ffs, that led to the first peace treaty between Israel and an Arab country, Egypt of all!
I won't go further till I read it, I just got worked up cause I thought we had more respect for Carter than to treat him like Michael Moore.

Super Dude

Eh, I've always been mixed on Carter.  Yes he did negotiate that historic agreement and I personally like his environmental record, but the bulk of his contribution to the situation since leaving office has been to criticize Israel, which I feel and I'm sure many of his critics feel undermines his image as someone who cares about those countries.

Adami

Quote from: metty on March 01, 2011, 02:43:55 PM
Did you guys know President Carter was getting sued over his Palestine book?
https://voices.washingtonpost.com/political-bookworm/2011/02/president_carter_named_in_5_mi.html
I haven't read the book but the name-calling, claims of lying and the always laughable "pro-terrorists" is a bit too much for a man like this, he conducted the Camp David negotiations ffs, that led to the first peace treaty between Israel and an Arab country, Egypt of all!
I won't go further till I read it, I just got worked up cause I thought we had more respect for Carter than to treat him like Michael Moore.

Carter is pretty famously anti-israel. And not just logically criticle of Israel, but extremely, blatantly anti-israel. Luckily I don't pay him much mind, and trying to sue him is pretty pointless.
www. fanticide.bandcamp . com

Super Dude

#42
Pretty much what Adami said. :P

In other Israeli news completely unrelated to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict (for a change), anyone open to discuss the very promising future in the Israeli economy?  I've heard whispers of a possible rising local economic power, which I like to believe may open up a new avenue for the peace process to exploit and finally lift Israel to greater and more meaningful international significance.

https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4029553,00.html

There was a much better article I was looking at a few days ago that basically said that Israel has the ability and opportunity to replace America and Japan as the global technological powerhouse, and use that to posture itself as a major economic power in the Middle East if not eventually on a much larger scale.

ack44

I don't really see how Israel's economy growing would necessarily benefit the peace process, at least one consisting of two independent states. It could go either way. It could actually benefit Palestinians or it could serve to further the colonial network, just like "growth" is used as an excuse to expand settlements.

Super Dude

#44
Like you said, it could work two ways, depending on how you see the political situation there.  For one, Israelis might use their economic power as a bargaining chip, literally buying peace from neighbors (and you'd have to be an idiot political leader to not want to cash in when a major economic power comes to your door).  Remember that although you may perceive them as this big, bad colonial power, and many Israelis do support those policies in order to take over the entire area of Israel and Palestine, still many Israelis are reluctant to draw up peace agreements because there's a security dilemma and they want some sort of solid guarantee that peace will be upheld with favorable terms indefinitely, which means of course buying peace from your neighbors.  This means for example engaging in friendly trade with Egypt to curry favor with its new government, engaging in trade with Iran to open up a dialogue finally, but it could also mean expanding the Israeli labor market, namely to unemployed or underemployed Palestinians.

Obviously there are already Palestinians working in Israel, but as you can imagine the current situation sees a lot of career and income imbalance (not due to prejudice, but rather because of the jobs Israeli employees trust Palestinians to undertake); if the Israeli economy has a boom and it's not able to fill it with its own people (which would be unwise after a certain point as any economist will probably chime in to say), there's already an able and willing labor market right next door, which could again mean the possibility of cooling relations between the two peoples.  Israelis will cool to Palestinians who they'll pretty much need as their labor safety valve, and a larger number of Palestinians will be earning a sufficient income to bring real, lasting wealth and maybe even public improvement to their respective territories.

Israelis aren't blind to the Palestinians' suffering for the last 60 years; it's just hard to acknowledge it when suicide bombers, riots, and random missiles come flying out the other side.  If the above scenario happens and they're able to point to money being used to create and sustain economic development in the territories rather than to funding terrorist activities, they'll be more open to talks.

The other way this could work would again make Israel feel more open to talks, but rather because the growth itself is a safety valve.  I've never heard that growth justification you mentioned, but I can tell you from my personal experience and studies of Israeli history that while they've been more economically powerful than Palestine, they still barely cut it; all the money they get from the US to fund their military is more than just a number showing how much importance they put into it.  Up until the last few years, the New Shekel has been weak, and the Shekel that preceded it...well, they had to create a new currency afterwards, so you figure it out.  In summary, Israel's economic history until I'd say 2006 or so looked like Brazil's from the Great Depression until around 2006 as well.

Anyway, you can imagine what sort of existential fears and other anxieties probably ensue from pouring so much money into the military under a weak (although in recent years until 2006 not really *weak*, just not strong) economy and still not being able to effect peace with your neighbors.  It's possible that once the economy takes off (and I'm not saying it's definite, I'm just saying it's like...60-80% likely, provided current events don't culminate in some catastrophic downturn for Israel politically or economically), Israelis will feel less anxious about existential fears and feel more in a position to be more lax about all policies and problems on the table.  Err something.  I kinda wanted to write this scenario first because I knew it would be complicated to explain, and now I forgot what the punchline was. :lol  But it is true that Israelis and even many Diaspora Jews perceived the national economy until recently as weak or unstable (as would probably be obvious to anyone who notices it's the New Shekel).

Super Dude

Also as to the first scenario described, I think that even though Palestinians are already heavily dependent on Israel, I think the creation of interdependence could be very good for both parties.  If it could lead to Palestinians viewing their dependence as mutual rather than one-sided, it could lead to a much healthier view of Israelis on the part of Palestinians, and the Palestinians might finally earn the trust of the Israelis.

ack44

Quote from: Super Dude on March 02, 2011, 05:02:33 AM
Obviously there are already Palestinians working in Israel, but as you can imagine the current situation sees a lot of career and income imbalance (not due to prejudice, but rather because of the jobs Israeli employees trust Palestinians to undertake); if the Israeli economy has a boom and it's not able to fill it with its own people (which would be unwise after a certain point as any economist will probably chime in to say), there's already an able and willing labor market right next door, which could again mean the possibility of cooling relations between the two peoples.  Israelis will cool to Palestinians who they'll pretty much need as their labor safety valve, and a larger number of Palestinians will be earning a sufficient income to bring real, lasting wealth and maybe even public improvement to their respective territories.

Whether income imbalance is related to prejudice or not is a whole other issue, but this entire narrative you have going is bizarre. The GDP (not really the best indicator of economic health anyways) grew in 2010 but so did the unemployment rate. From what I've heard the demand for Palestinian workers in Israel has dried up. The Palestinian economy (for lack of better words) is unable to grow in any ways, as they aren't allowed any political independence. Maybe there are some nice jobs available on the other side of the wall, but since there is no national equality, there can be no truly bilateral economic cooperation.

Super Dude

Alright so I stand corrected; I wasn't aware of that unemployment bit, so my scenario was in error out of genuine ignorance. Although I will maintain that the post before your response depicts a likely scenario should the labor market open up some. Also I'm operating on around 3 1/2 hours of sleep.

Super Dude

BTW my own vision of the ideal peace conditions would be one of mutual dependence as described.

Super Dude

Additionally, although I know it's somewhat late for this, I'd like to note that what reads to you as an illogical and blind defense of Israeli defense policy is more a kneejerk reaction on my part than anything, based on my personal basic belief that Israel has a right to defend itself from terrorist attacks, and I do not in any way endorse the inherent occupation of Palestine (i.e. my defense is based on the Israeli security dilemma). My kneejerk reaction is more due to the fact that although the actions deserve criticism, I believe that the criticism may be overly harsh, especially since the intent is, as mentioned, part and parcel to the Israeli security dilemma.

ack44

BTW your avatar looks like Ariel Sharon.

Super Dude

Huh??? Sorry for the triple post, again running on very little sleep.

ack44


PlaysLikeMyung


Progmetty

Damn it ack I had almost forgotten that pig's face.

ack44

Now you'll get to remember it each time you see Superdude's jewfish.

PlaysLikeMyung

Ack that's borderline offensive. Watch it

ack44


Adami

Quote from: ack44 on March 12, 2011, 08:53:38 PM
Things could get ugly in Israel... settlement family murdered near Nablus.

https://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomacy-defense/idf-launches-massive-manhunt-after-five-family-members-slain-in-settlement-attack-1.348707

They stabbed a baby to death. That seems rather horrific.


I just hope Israel doesn't use this as an excuse to gain a stronger presence in the West Bank.
www. fanticide.bandcamp . com

Super Dude

Hopefully not, and I'd like to see this result in the PLO rising to the challenge of providing real civil governance, i.e. trying the case in a Palestinian court and sentencing the perp to a reasonable (democratic) punishment.  I don't know really know how that sort of thing works, but it would be a great chance for the PLO to show that they can keep the peace and a mutually satisfactory way without Israel stepping in.

Super Dude


Super Dude

So there was just a bus bomb in Jerusalem and now there's a FB group circulating like wildfire called Third Intifada.

Here we go again.

Adami

Quote from: Super Dude on March 23, 2011, 09:19:25 AM
So there was just a bus bomb in Jerusalem and now there's a FB group circulating like wildfire called Third Intifada.

Here we go again.

Oh god.
www. fanticide.bandcamp . com

Progmetty

Don't worry, they're gonna kill that uprising too https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4046853,00.html
Fuckers just don't wanna be oppressed silently, gotta make "facebook" page about it and make an uprising so we would stop getting rapped, oh how "modern" of you Palestine heh

Adami

Bombing a bus stop is going to stop them from getting raped? I don't think I understand what you meant.



If anything, I'd hope the Palestinians would start doing major peaceful protests. Might actually help.
www. fanticide.bandcamp . com

Super Dude

Quote from: Adami on March 23, 2011, 11:22:35 AM
Quote from: Super Dude on March 23, 2011, 09:19:25 AM
So there was just a bus bomb in Jerusalem and now there's a FB group circulating like wildfire called Third Intifada.

Here we go again.

Oh god.

I'm not sure whether this was in response to just hearing this news, me bringing up the FB page, or something else; please clarify.

Quote from: Adami on March 23, 2011, 11:32:04 AM
Bombing a bus stop is going to stop them from getting raped? I don't think I understand what you meant.



If anything, I'd hope the Palestinians would start doing major peaceful protests. Might actually help.

Yeah I mean I know it happens on a small scale from personal experience, I remember in either '06 or '07 driving by some well-dressed Palestinian private schoolers who were taking part in a rally of some sort just outside of the Old City.  That's all I remember though.  And I would love to see that undertaken on a larger scale as well; certainly would go a long way in dispelling a lot of the distrust Israelis have for Palestinians in general.

Adami

My oh god was about what has happened and what now will happen.

Palestinians bomb random israeli citizens in some odd effort to achieve freedom.

Israelis take more freedom away from palestinians, thinking that for some reason it would actually help anything.

Cycle continues.


Oh god.
www. fanticide.bandcamp . com

rumborak

It might sound calloused, but at this point I've just grown numb reading about one group of religious nutjobs having killed another group of religious nutjobs. Despite the horrendous nature of the crime, I also have to wonder what thought process led the family to the conclusion that living in an illegal settlement with a one-month old is good parenting.

rumborak

Adami

Quote from: rumborak on March 23, 2011, 04:37:48 PM
It might sound calloused, but at this point I've just grown numb reading about one group of religious nutjobs having killed another group of religious nutjobs. Despite the horrendous nature of the crime, I also have to wonder what thought process led the family to the conclusion that living in an illegal settlement with a one-month old is good parenting.

rumborak

Living in a disputed territory isn't an excuse to get murdered like that. You have no idea why the family lived where they did, so saying it's just a bunch of religious nut jobs being murdered is pretty sad.

If a family lives in a bad neighborhood in America, is it no big deal when they get murdered?

Also, the people at the bus stop might not have been religious at all. Just people catching a bus.
www. fanticide.bandcamp . com

El Barto

I personally wouldn't consider religion to be a factor in either side's nutjobbery.