The Israel Discussion Thread

[Super Dude]

It might sound calloused, but at this point I've just grown numb reading about one group of religious nutjobs having killed another group of religious nutjobs. Despite the horrendous nature of the crime, I also have to wonder what thought process led the family to the conclusion that living in an illegal settlement with a one-month old is good parenting.

rumborak

Living in a disputed territory isn't an excuse to get murdered like that. You have no idea why the family lived where they did, so saying it's just a bunch of religious nut jobs being murdered is pretty sad.

If a family lives in a bad neighborhood in America, is it no big deal when they get murdered?

Also, the people at the bus stop might not have been religious at all. Just people catching a bus.

Yeah although the murder of that entire family is more horrific to me, I'd say the consequences of this last one are gonna much graver.  Although to the note that Israelis will take away more freedoms from Palestinians and make them more angry, I realize it's the wrong way to go about it, but honestly, what would happen if they gave more freedom?  I don't mean the Palestinian people shouldn't be a free, autonomous sovereign nation, but I don't know about the consequences of doing so in the immediate aftermath of such an event.

[Adami]

I personally wouldn't consider religion to be a factor in either side's nutjobbery. 

Probably not the palestinians, but not counting government officials, the israelis who are anti-peace are 99/100 the ultra orthodox.

[Adami]

It might sound calloused, but at this point I've just grown numb reading about one group of religious nutjobs having killed another group of religious nutjobs. Despite the horrendous nature of the crime, I also have to wonder what thought process led the family to the conclusion that living in an illegal settlement with a one-month old is good parenting.

rumborak

Living in a disputed territory isn't an excuse to get murdered like that. You have no idea why the family lived where they did, so saying it's just a bunch of religious nut jobs being murdered is pretty sad.

If a family lives in a bad neighborhood in America, is it no big deal when they get murdered?

Also, the people at the bus stop might not have been religious at all. Just people catching a bus.

Yeah although the murder of that entire family is more horrific to me, I'd say the consequences of this last one are gonna much graver.  Although to the note that Israelis will take away more freedoms from Palestinians and make them more angry, I realize it's the wrong way to go about it, but honestly, what would happen if they gave more freedom?  I don't mean the Palestinian people shouldn't be a free, autonomous sovereign nation, but I don't know about the consequences of doing so in the immediate aftermath of such an event.

Well I wouldn't make their freedom the intended subject of the action. But in the end, I usually refer back to the Pain of Salvation quote that really sums a lot of it up.

"If you take from those you fear, everything they value, you have bred the perfect beast, drained enough to kill you"

[El Barto]

I personally wouldn't consider religion to be a factor in either side's nutjobbery. 

Probably not the palestinians, but not counting government officials, the israelis who are anti-peace are 99/100 the ultra orthodox.

Is their orthodoxy the reason for their aggression?

[Adami]

I personally wouldn't consider religion to be a factor in either side's nutjobbery. 

Probably not the palestinians, but not counting government officials, the israelis who are anti-peace are 99/100 the ultra orthodox.

Is their orthodoxy the reason for their aggression?

Eh, I guess in the end all aggression can just be attributed to who they are as people. But it's not a coincidence that the secular israelis, or less religious israelis are usually MUCH more pro peace, while the orthodox and ultra religious are anti-peace and pro-gaining as much land as humanly possible.

[Super Dude]

I personally wouldn't consider religion to be a factor in either side's nutjobbery. 

Probably not the palestinians, but not counting government officials, the israelis who are anti-peace are 99/100 the ultra orthodox.

I don't know about the Palestinian *people* but Hamas and other groups who encourage violence use a highly religious pretext for it.

I personally wouldn't consider religion to be a factor in either side's nutjobbery. 

Probably not the palestinians, but not counting government officials, the israelis who are anti-peace are 99/100 the ultra orthodox.

Is their orthodoxy the reason for their aggression?

Eh, I guess in the end all aggression can just be attributed to who they are as people. But it's not a coincidence that the secular israelis, or less religious israelis are usually MUCH more pro peace, while the orthodox and ultra religious are anti-peace and pro-gaining as much land as humanly possible.

I wouldn't say it's aggression so much as an us vs. them attitude.  Believe me, I've spent plenty of time around it.  They consider themselves victims as does everyone else caught in the crossfire of this conflict, and they're totally open to playing that card.

[rumborak]

Living in a disputed territory isn't an excuse to get murdered like that. You have no idea why the family lived where they did, so saying it's just a bunch of religious nut jobs being murdered is pretty sad.

No offense, but what other reason than an extreme understanding of the term "Israel" makes people settle in Itamar, an area internationally considered part of Palestine? Everyone living in that area will be aware of that, you can't tell me that family just "happened" to see a nice building in an Israeli newspaper an decided to move there.
Any Jewish family living in Itamar puts Zionism above the safety of their children. And that's where I slowly check out.
I mean, I don't open a golf store in the South Bronx either.

Bomb at bus stop, very different story.

rumborak

[El Barto]

I personally wouldn't consider religion to be a factor in either side's nutjobbery. 

Probably not the palestinians, but not counting government officials, the israelis who are anti-peace are 99/100 the ultra orthodox.

I don't know about the Palestinian *people* but Hamas and other groups who encourage violence use a highly religious pretext for it.

And by definition, that pretext is contrary to their actual reasoning.  Conversely, the ultra-orthodox Israelis use defense as a pretext for their religious ambitions. 

And I used aggression merely to refer to an act of hostility; not intent. 

[ack44]

Was finally able to read up on this. Turns out the lady killed was British, a reminder that using violence against civilians is violence against humanity (60 wounded seems to be an exaggeration). Netanyahu is saying they will respond harshly, but I'm wondering against who.

[Super Dude]

1. According to the British Embassy the number injured was 38, though to be honest 60 injured from an attack like this isn't farfetched.

2. Palestinian militant and terrorist groups.

[Adami]

Was finally able to read up on this. Turns out the lady killed was British, a reminder that using violence against civilians is violence against humanity (60 wounded seems to be an exaggeration). Netanyahu is saying they will respond harshly, but I'm wondering against who.

1. Good thing she wasn't Israeli then, or else I guess it wouldn't be violence against humanity eh?


2. My guess would be accidentally the wrong people, like usual.

[zerogravityfat]

israel/palestine is gettin jelly over the north africans. it's always me me for them ju jus.

[ack44]

Israel eases steps to revoke citizenship

https://www.reuters.com/article/2011/03/28/us-israel-parliament-arabs-idUSTRE72R6OH20110328

Israeli Foreign Minister Avigdor Lieberman, whose ultra-nationalist party sponsored the measure, proclaimed victory after the vote, saying he had fulfilled a pledge to voters to crack down on any "citizen who sides with the enemy."

Oh Lolberman

Also last week, ultra-nationalist lawmaker Danny Danon held a hearing to upbraid the Jewish-American "J-Street," saying the group, which critises Jewish settlement-building in occupied land, should be shunned as "pro-Palestinian, not pro-Israeli."

David Gilo, a J-Street leader, rejected the charge. "We are Zionists and care about Israel," Gilo told the Knesset panel.

Good indications that J-Street is successfully trolling rightists in the motherland.

[Super Dude]

See, this is exactly the sort of thing I'm talking about.  If Israeli politics (and American politics) could be dominated by leftists, so many problems could be easily resolved: two state solution would probably have been passed by now (and if not then at least they'd handle Palestinian terrorism better), this citizenship shit would never happen, and Halacha could probably be dropped from Israeli law and brought down to the level of positive religious freedoms.  Basically I sometimes agree with the intention behind rightist acts, but basically they do it so wrong, and do nothing but ill for Israel's international image.

[Super Dude]

Found a great article about Israel and some other countries in the face of this new Arab Revolution:

https://www.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/opinion/29iht-edcohen29.html?_r=1&hp

Also, told ya:

Israel’s ultra-Orthodox Shas party has an outsized influence over Israel because of coalition politics. That’s a problem.

[Super Dude]

This was published yesterday, too lazy to copy the text itself so just click the link: https://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/03/world/middleeast/03mideast.html?_r=1&src=ISMR_HP_LO_MST_FB

I have mixed feelings about this, as should be obvious.  I don't mind Israel and Palestine being forced into peace, and I'd rather it be a mutual thing rather than Israel forced to cooperate with Palestine and not also the other way around, but my main gripe is with Jerusalem, which I want to be an international city as in the 1948 agreement, owned by neither party.

[ack44]

but my main gripe is with Jerusalem, which I want to be an international city as in the 1948 agreement, owned by neither party.

I totally agree that Israel should be an international city.

[Super Dude]

I think you mean Jerusalem.

[Adami]

I think you mean Jerusalem.

I wouldn't be so sure.

[Super Dude]

I think you mean Jerusalem.

I wouldn't be so sure.

Sad but true.

[ack44]

Haha whoops I meant Jerusalem.

[Super Dude]

I know this has nothing to do with politics, but this is the Israel discussion thread and I have a story that I just remembered from a time when I was in Israel.

It was summer 2009, and I was on this study abroad/tour of Israel program hosted by my state's Jewish Federation, and I was there with about a dozen other college kids.  We had gone to visit this really major church in northern Israel where the Virgin Mary was supposedly told by Gabriel that she would be pregnant, and I'd drank like a thousand bottles of water 'cause it was hot as hell.  I had to piss like a racehorse.  I tried to hold it in for a while but it was no use, and I went ahead of the group to look for a bathroom.  Damn those ancient temples hiding the restrooms in their infrastructure.

I got up onto what might be described as a veranda, and saw a tour group ahead of me.  They were Asian of some sort but I couldn't tell if they were Japanese or Korean because I was too far away to hear them speak.  I ran up to them and asked, "Toire wa doko desuka?"  By some great miracle, they understood me!  Suffice it to say, the story had a happy ending.  My trip to Japan the previous year paid off, and I got to use Japanese in Israel.

[ack44]

If you're in a tourist area and there are a bunch of people wearing the same color hat, 98% of the time they're a Japanese group.

[Super Dude]

[Progmetty]

I didn't know Facebook actually removed the Third Palestinian Uprising Page, apparently a week ago https://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/facebook-removes-palestinian-intifada-page/

[Super Dude]

Well I can't say I'm displeased at that news.

[Adami]

I didn't know Facebook actually removed the Third Palestinian Uprising Page, apparently a week ago https://mediadecoder.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/03/29/facebook-removes-palestinian-intifada-page/

From what I understand it got to the point of urging mass violence against jews. If it wdre peaceful I would have supported it.

[Super Dude]

I have to ask my opposition here something, and please answer honestly: in your ideal world, does Israel exist?

[Adami]

Not to steal any thunder for Super Dudes question, but I was just reading about the italian guy who got killed. Seems very strange to me. A staunch anti-israel activist was killed by a gaza palestinian group because hamas, another palestinian group wouldn't release one of their men.

Sad world.



Also, I found out the other day that I can't go to my Israel study abroad trip because I, as an israeli citizen, am banned from almost all Palestinian territories. I guess that's one part they neglect to mention when discussing checkpoints.

[Super Dude]

Not to steal any thunder for Super Dudes question, but I was just reading about the italian guy who got killed. Seems very strange to me. A staunch anti-israel activist was killed by a gaza palestinian group because hamas, another palestinian group wouldn't release one of their men.

Sad world.



Also, I found out the other day that I can't go to my Israel study abroad trip because I, as an israeli citizen, am banned from almost all Palestinian territories. I guess that's one part they neglect to mention when discussing checkpoints.

Why?

[Adami]

Not to steal any thunder for Super Dudes question, but I was just reading about the italian guy who got killed. Seems very strange to me. A staunch anti-israel activist was killed by a gaza palestinian group because hamas, another palestinian group wouldn't release one of their men.

Sad world.



Also, I found out the other day that I can't go to my Israel study abroad trip because I, as an israeli citizen, am banned from almost all Palestinian territories. I guess that's one part they neglect to mention when discussing checkpoints.

Ask the PA. All non military or celebrity Israeli citizens are banned from places like Bethleham and Rhamallah. I only checked on those two since that's where we'd be going, but I have a feeling most of the west bank is similar.

Why?

[El Barto]

I have to ask my opposition here something, and please answer honestly: in your ideal world, does Israel exist?

Yes, but it's located in North Dakota.

Holy shit.  We could make it Arizona and solve everybody's problems.  And besides, they'd appreciate the hot, dry air.

And by the way,  I don't think you have any opposition here (aside from Ack), except those you create in your head.  Funny that you'd probably lump me into the opponent category, yet my POV is quite similar to Adami's insofar as Israel goes, and I suspect you consider him an ally. 

Also, I found out the other day that I can't go to my Israel study abroad trip because I, as an israeli citizen, am banned from almost all Palestinian territories. I guess that's one part they neglect to mention when discussing checkpoints.

Didn't realize you were an Israeli citizen.  Far out.

[Adami]

Also, I found out the other day that I can't go to my Israel study abroad trip because I, as an israeli citizen, am banned from almost all Palestinian territories. I guess that's one part they neglect to mention when discussing checkpoints.

Didn't realize you were an Israeli citizen.  Far out.

Yup, dual citizenship. Keeps me banned from like 15 countries.

yay!

[Progmetty]

Do you live mainly here to there?

[Adami]

Do you live mainly here to there?

I can't live there without being drafted or arrested. So I live in America. One day when I can get out of that whole army thing, I might move down there.

However as a musician, Israel isn't exactly the best place to be if I still have any hopes of making it for myself. Israel isn't know for having great music outside of Ofrah Haza.