The Israel Discussion Thread

[rumborak]

To be fair, they had good reason. It wasn't exactly "hey what do you wanna do today?" "I dunno.....how about we bomb egypt?"

That might be so (see Ninja edit above ), but EV seems to dispute the fact that Israel struck first.

rumborak

[Adami]

To be fair, they had good reason. It wasn't exactly "hey what do you wanna do today?" "I dunno.....how about we bomb egypt?"

That might be so (see Ninja edit above ), but EV seems to dispute the fact that Israel struck first.

rumborak

Ah yes indeed. Israel without a doubt struck first.

[rumborak]

I'm certainly not saying that the strike was without previous provocations or that Israel didn't themselves see this as a (extreme but necessary) measure to change the direction of the conflict, but reality of it is also that Israel used this strike for a massive land grab that didn't belong to them under the UN mandate, and which displaced the Palestinians. If Obama says the amount of land attributed to the Palestinians needs to be closer to the amount around 1967, I can see his reasoning.

rumborak

[Adami]

I'm certainly not saying that the strike was without previous provocations or that Israel didn't themselves see this as a (extreme but necessary) measure to change the direction of the conflict, but reality of it is also that Israel used this strike for a massive land grab that didn't belong to them under the UN mandate, and which displaced the Palestinians. If Obama says the amount of land attributed to the Palestinians needs to be closer to the amount around 1967, I can see his reasoning.

rumborak

I don't think Israel struck egypt in order to take land for Jordan. I think Israel just took advantage of a huge war, like any country really would. What's ironic though is that the land designated for "Palestine" wasn't originally part of the 48 mandate and were simply parts of Egypt and Jordan.

[ariich]

I scratch my head why this is not obvious stuff to anyone who studies these subjects for 30 years like me

You just had to ruin your brilliantly sarcastic post by drawing attention to your superiority over all us laymen, didn't you?

As with any troll, it's best we just ignore it.

Dude, you can't call someone a troll just because you don't like or agree with their opinions. Sure he clearly has a lot of controversial things to say on this subject, but he also clearly takes it seriously.

[EPICVIEW]

the 1967 borders are in refernece tot he 6 day war that Israel wa attacked on

You supposedly spent 30 years "researching" this topic, and then claim Israel was attacked first? Dude, even Israel conceded that they instigated it, calling it a "preemptive measure". Whether it was justifiable might be a topic of controversy, but what credence can we give to your ramblings if you can't even get the most basic facts straight?

rumborak

again.. you are incorrect... shocking.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

Syria’s attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights finally provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967. During the attack, Israeli planes shot down six Syrian fighter planes — MiGs supplied by the Soviet Union. Shortly thereafter, the Soviets — who had been providing military and economic assistance to both Syria and Egypt — gave Damascus false information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, Syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with Egypt and asked Nasser to come to its aid.

[Rathma]

I don't think Obama mentioned Jerusalem though. That's kind of like the most difficult part about this conflict.

[rumborak]

I'm certainly not saying that the strike was without previous provocations or that Israel didn't themselves see this as a (extreme but necessary) measure to change the direction of the conflict, but reality of it is also that Israel used this strike for a massive land grab that didn't belong to them under the UN mandate, and which displaced the Palestinians. If Obama says the amount of land attributed to the Palestinians needs to be closer to the amount around 1967, I can see his reasoning.

rumborak

I don't think Israel struck egypt in order to take land for Jordan. I think Israel just took advantage of a huge war, like any country really would. What's ironic though is that the land designated for "Palestine" wasn't originally part of the 48 mandate and were simply parts of Egypt and Jordan.

Oh, I agree, I don't think Israel set out thinking they might end up with a nice chunk of extra land at the end of it. As you said, after all was said and done, they found themselves occupying certain areas they would have liked for themselves.
But, frankly, a military outcome can't be the legal basis for countries' borders. Otherwise, Germany would still have Alsace (which we don't, because we had to give it back to France after WWII).

rumborak

[EPICVIEW]

I don't think Obama mentioned Jerusalem though. That's kind of like the most difficult part about this conflict.

He did.. his flip flop is well documented.

[Adami]

I'm certainly not saying that the strike was without previous provocations or that Israel didn't themselves see this as a (extreme but necessary) measure to change the direction of the conflict, but reality of it is also that Israel used this strike for a massive land grab that didn't belong to them under the UN mandate, and which displaced the Palestinians. If Obama says the amount of land attributed to the Palestinians needs to be closer to the amount around 1967, I can see his reasoning.

rumborak

I don't think Israel struck egypt in order to take land for Jordan. I think Israel just took advantage of a huge war, like any country really would. What's ironic though is that the land designated for "Palestine" wasn't originally part of the 48 mandate and were simply parts of Egypt and Jordan.

Oh, I agree, I don't think Israel set out thinking they might end up with a nice chunk of extra land at the end of it. As you said, after all was said and done, they found themselves occupying certain areas they would have liked for themselves.
But, frankly, a military outcome can't be the legal basis for countries' borders. Otherwise, Germany would still have Alsace (which we don't, because we had to give it back to France after WWII).

rumborak

Well lots of countries would lose their borders if military conquest wasn't enough to define it.

[rumborak]

the 1967 borders are in refernece tot he 6 day war that Israel wa attacked on

You supposedly spent 30 years "researching" this topic, and then claim Israel was attacked first? Dude, even Israel conceded that they instigated it, calling it a "preemptive measure". Whether it was justifiable might be a topic of controversy, but what credence can we give to your ramblings if you can't even get the most basic facts straight?

rumborak

again.. you are incorrect... shocking.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

Just FYI, I have no interest in discussing this with you. I am not surprised you find an online document that disputes historical fact.

rumborak

[rumborak]

Well lots of countries would lose their borders if military conquest wasn't enough to define it.

Yeah, that's where the tricky part comes in It's definitely true that almost all border were defined through military conquest.
That said, I think the Palestinians also need a place to live, and that the current area is heavily biased towards Israel, as an outcome of 1967. For a real lasting peace to happen, Israel needs to concede land. Otherwise you'll just have continuing skirmishes.

rumborak

[PlaysLikeMyung]

the 1967 borders are in refernece tot he 6 day war that Israel wa attacked on

You supposedly spent 30 years "researching" this topic, and then claim Israel was attacked first? Dude, even Israel conceded that they instigated it, calling it a "preemptive measure". Whether it was justifiable might be a topic of controversy, but what credence can we give to your ramblings if you can't even get the most basic facts straight?

rumborak

again.. you are incorrect... shocking.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

Syria’s attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights finally provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967. During the attack, Israeli planes shot down six Syrian fighter planes — MiGs supplied by the Soviet Union. Shortly thereafter, the Soviets — who had been providing military and economic assistance to both Syria and Egypt — gave Damascus false information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, Syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with Egypt and asked Nasser to come to its aid.

Hey epicview, do you bother reading your own articles?

By this time, Israeli forces had been on alert for three weeks. The country could not remain fully mobilized indefinitely, nor could it allow its sea lane through the Gulf of Aqaba to be interdicted. Israel decided to preempt the expected Arab attack. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage. On June 5, Prime Minister Eshkol gave the order to attack Egypt.

[rumborak]

[Adami]

Well lots of countries would lose their borders if military conquest wasn't enough to define it.

Yeah, that's where the tricky part comes in It's definitely true that almost all border were defined through military conquest.
That said, I think the Palestinians also need a place to live, and that the current area is heavily biased towards Israel, as an outcome of 1967. For a real lasting peace to happen, Israel needs to concede land. Otherwise you'll just have continuing skirmishes.

rumborak

I agree. Give back all of the west bank (and by give back, I mean make it palestinian...which isn't really giving back, but giving), and make Jerusalem a UN run city, with no country laying claim to it. The problem then becomes how do you make Gaza and The West Bank a country? It would be like if Texas and Virginia decide to become their own country, it's odd.

[Adami]

Also, if anyone is watching Benji is giving a horrible speech about peace. So far (Although I did come in late), he has mentioned how happy the Arab Israelis are, how Iran is going to destroy the world, and the holocaust. Good god.

[EPICVIEW]

the 1967 borders are in refernece tot he 6 day war that Israel wa attacked on

You supposedly spent 30 years "researching" this topic, and then claim Israel was attacked first? Dude, even Israel conceded that they instigated it, calling it a "preemptive measure". Whether it was justifiable might be a topic of controversy, but what credence can we give to your ramblings if you can't even get the most basic facts straight?

rumborak

again.. you are incorrect... shocking.

https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/History/67_War.html

Syria’s attacks on Israeli kibbutzim from the Golan Heights finally provoked a retaliatory strike on April 7, 1967. During the attack, Israeli planes shot down six Syrian fighter planes — MiGs supplied by the Soviet Union. Shortly thereafter, the Soviets — who had been providing military and economic assistance to both Syria and Egypt — gave Damascus false information alleging a massive Israeli military buildup in preparation for an attack. Despite Israeli denials, Syria decided to invoke its defense treaty with Egypt and asked Nasser to come to its aid.

Hey epicview, do you bother reading your own articles?

By this time, Israeli forces had been on alert for three weeks. The country could not remain fully mobilized indefinitely, nor could it allow its sea lane through the Gulf of Aqaba to be interdicted. Israel decided to preempt the expected Arab attack. To do this successfully, Israel needed the element of surprise. Had it waited for an Arab invasion, Israel would have been at a potentially catastrophic disadvantage. On June 5, Prime Minister Eshkol gave the order to attack Egypt.

Uh..yea I did.. did you? or do you just have selective reading skillz?  What I mentioned was an attack on Israel that started the process of war.... pretty well known stuff.....

and that this Rumbarak wants to call history' subjective online BS" does not make the facts in the article incorrect, Those MIGS were shot down over Israeli airspace in an act of war. after attacks onto Israel proper from the Golan

[rumborak]

Well lots of countries would lose their borders if military conquest wasn't enough to define it.

Yeah, that's where the tricky part comes in It's definitely true that almost all border were defined through military conquest.
That said, I think the Palestinians also need a place to live, and that the current area is heavily biased towards Israel, as an outcome of 1967. For a real lasting peace to happen, Israel needs to concede land. Otherwise you'll just have continuing skirmishes.

rumborak

I agree. Give back all of the west bank (and by give back, I mean make it palestinian...which isn't really giving back, but giving), and make Jerusalem a UN run city, with no country laying claim to it. The problem then becomes how do you make Gaza and The West Bank a country? It would be like if Texas and Virginia decide to become their own country, it's odd.

Yeah, I've been pondering that too. But, look at post-war West Berlin. It was a part of Western Germany for 50 years even though it was embedded inside a Communist country. As long as an agreement of safe and unlimited transport through the "hosting" country is established, it can be done.

rumborak

[EPICVIEW]

Also, if anyone is watching Benji is giving a horrible speech about peace. So far (Although I did come in late), he has mentioned how happy the Arab Israelis are, how Iran is going to destroy the world, and the holocaust. Good god.

I know.. The Jews are much happier in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, then an Arab in Israel.. Benji is a dope. Lets hope Israel adopts their policies of equality for all.

[Adami]

Also, if anyone is watching Benji is giving a horrible speech about peace. So far (Although I did come in late), he has mentioned how happy the Arab Israelis are, how Iran is going to destroy the world, and the holocaust. Good god.

I know.. The Jews are much happier in Saudi Arabia and Egypt, then an Arab in Israel.. Benji is a dope

Stop it. Just stop it. Remember when you said you weren't going to post in PR anymore?

[rumborak]

I'm also pretty tired of EV junking up an otherwise very interesting and level-headed discussion.

rumborak

[Adami]

Ok now he's talking about how God gave the jews the land. This isn't going very well at all.

[EPICVIEW]

Ok now he's talking about how God gave the jews the land. This isn't going very well at all.

its not?

[Adami]

Ok now he's talking about how God gave the jews the land. This isn't going very well at all.

its not?

No, so far his speech for "peace" has mentioned Iran destroying the world, the holocaust, God giving Jews all of the land, and the Palestinians being 100% to blame for everything. Nothing is going well so far in this speech, but it's pretty predictable.

[EPICVIEW]

Ok now he's talking about how God gave the jews the land. This isn't going very well at all.

its not?

No, so far his speech for "peace" has mentioned Iran destroying the world, the holocaust, God giving Jews all of the land, and the Palestinians being 100% to blame for everything. Nothing is going well so far in this speech, but it's pretty predictable.

of course.. Benji knows nobody is going to stick up for Israel but him, he has a job to do. I saw an interesting poll that showed like 80% of the USA supports Israel and Benji over Obamas position

[Adami]

Right now his job is to help make peace. He's not doing his job.

[EPICVIEW]

Right now his job is to help make peace. He's not doing his job.

debatable..

His job is the protection of his people.. if peace is that vehicle then let it be. if not Israel will have to do what it needs to do, whatever that is in todays volitile ME

[rumborak]

Did I misunderstand him, or did he suggest that the Palestinian state would have to allow unlimited Jewish immigration?

rumborak

[Adami]

The best way to defend against a war is to end it.



@Rumby, that's what I heard too. Not sure what he meant, maybe he misspoke?

[rumborak]

Man, yeah, he can only think in terms of war. And the Republicans have one collective boner right now.

rumborak

[EPICVIEW]

The best way to defend against a war is to end it.



@Rumby, that's what I heard too. Not sure what he meant, maybe he misspoke?

He did not mispeak. very simply if a Jew wants to stay there, they will need to be allowed to become a palestinian, and live there, rather then migrate back to Israel via being expelled from their dwelling..who knows how many will want to.

[EPICVIEW]

Man, yeah, he can only think in terms of war. And the Republicans have one collective boner right now.

rumborak

its called a "deterent" .. is this posturing so amzingly difficult to understand.. The fear of use of force can be used as a vehicle for peace..

all he is saying is " mess around and you will be destroyed" and its more at Iran

[Adami]

Well aside from his ramblings about Iran and the Holocaust, I think his entire speech can be summed up in 2 words.


NO COMPROMISE.

[rumborak]

The best way to defend against a war is to end it.



@Rumby, that's what I heard too. Not sure what he meant, maybe he misspoke?

He did not mispeak. very simply if a Jew wants to stay there, they will need to be allowed to become a palestinian, and live there, rather then migrate back to Israel via being expelled from their dwelling..who knows how many will want to.

Every heard of a country's sovereignty? Palestine will have to be able to decide who they let immigrate or not. Imposing this on Palestine is just a covert way of continuing the settlements.

rumborak

[EPICVIEW]

Well aside from his ramblings about Iran and the Holocaust, I think his entire speech can be summed up in 2 words.


NO COMPROMISE.

creating leverage.. smart